"High End Dealers and You" - The "Hidden Rules" (At least for some)

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Interesting article on the "hidden rules" of Audio Dealing - https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/10/29/the-high-end-audio-dealer-and-you-the-vinyl-anachronist/...

I wonder why these are not better known, as the author seems to repeat, except to the "experienced" audiophiles... seems like a HUGE communication gap...

(And no, sorry Mr. Author, only idiots believe that audio dealers are their friends... now dealers with whom one shares audio tastes and preferences, and with whom an individual has a history of trust, they have a great relationship... but friends?!? )
 

Audire

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Jan 18, 2019
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I am friends - good friends - with my dealer. Yes, he needs to make a profit on what he sells me, et. al. but that doesn’t mean he can’t also be a friend as well. My dealer is honest and of the highest character and integrity. We have much more in common than just audio …

I will say that I don’t consider my former dealer of this same caliber. So, ultimately I think it depends upon whom your dealer is...
 

defride

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Mar 28, 2013
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Seems to be making out the high end dealer is a bookmaker, not in the least interested in the individual who studies the odds, takes the game seriously and might just win.

What the authors dealer appears to be looking for is the audio illiterate who walks in off the street, can be easily impressed and sold whatever they have??

Fair enough, the audiophile would do well to avoid them

There are good and bad dealers out there, just as there are good and bad customers
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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i absolutely see audio dealers as my friends. and i've dealt with plenty of them. they make a profit, and i refer customers. i drift away from them or back to them based on products they offer. i evolve and so do they.

when i first got into the hobby i relied on my local brick and mortar dealer and they did right by me. but even after i moved on from that i continued to refer customers to them and they continued to be my friends. more than one way to show your respect to your dealer.

i'm not a tire kicker....if i'm on the scent of a product i'm consuming. but everyone is different in that way. no right or wrong. but respect for someone's time is important. and the hifi business/high end culture is a small world and best to behave. but we don't all see it that way.

i have thick skin from my years in retail, so i take cynicism well. benefit of the doubt is not a given when you are selling stuff.
 
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DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Having worked for a few dealers many, many years ago and having a variety of experiences, to me it goes both ways.

Back in the 70's and 80's mail order was the competition, and we all had experiences spending an hour or ten over perhaps several weeks with a customer setting up and auditioning various gear, sometimes in-home, only to call a few weeks later and find out he saved 5% or 10% via mail order. Today we have the internet. It is hard work and time-consuming to set up a system, explain what is different among various components, and work with a customer to identify what they have, what they want, and how best to fulfill their needs and wants (rarely the same thing). And yes the goal is to make a sale, that's why the store exists, but for many stores the relationship matters if only because it may lead to more sales in the future from that customer and his friends. And frankly I am not a people person (I was a tech, rarely on the sales floor, but also did installs and in-home repairs) but found it interesting to hear stories and meet people passionate about their music. I have a lot of good memories from those days.

On the flip side, I have walked into stores wearing decent jeans and a dress shirt (my normal attire) and being shown the "cheap room" or just told to wander the aisles. At one high-end store a friend and I had very similar experiences at different times trying to hear some more expensive gear (not WBF expensive, but in the $25k range for a pair of speakers and perhaps $30k to $50k for the system). I was listening to one pair of speakers and asked if another pair could be listened in the same room and same equipment, did not care which room we used, just wanted to hear them side-by-side. That's why I go to a dealer, after all. I was told it was too much effort and was I going to buy today? I said no, I wanted to listen to a couple of other pairs they did not carry as well. I understand their point of view but it was a disappointing experience despite gaining some useful knowledge. As I was leaving one of the salesman/managers (I was never sure) asked if I could afford speakers like that. I said yes, told him what I had then (they had never asked), and walked out. My friend is a crusty old fart and they basically told him the stuff he was looking at was out of his range and why not try this stuff over here? In both cases that store lost sales and any future business. We bought the speakers, the same ones the store carried, from different dealers. My friend bought a full system, replacing his old one, and I have bought a number of things from my new-found dealer/friend as well as sending other friends his way.

It is walking a tightrope, or maybe a knife-edge, because you really never know the customer's mind and finances. But some of the high-end stores these days (based on VERY limited experience!) seem to focus more on the customer (obviously) rich enough to buy large-scale systems and extensive installations than the little guy starting out or even the mid-range guy like me with <$100k in the system who does not wear a business suit to the store. I had a totally opposite experience at another dealer and bought from him. My friend did the same (with a different dealer than mine). OTOH the original store has probably had plenty of folk just like us walk in, waste time, and walk out. Why spend the effort when there was not going to be a sale that day, and maybe never? They still seem to be doing a good business so must be doing OK at identifying paying customers.

I'm glad I am not in sales.
 

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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Seems to me a lot of this could be avoided if one is up front with the dealer about what their intentions are or are not. That way there’s no guessing game and a dealer is less likely to make incorrect assumptions based on your shoes, etc.
 

Bartolo

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Jan 31, 2019
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Seems to me a lot of this could be avoided if one is up front with the dealer about what their intentions are or are not. That way there’s no guessing game and a dealer is less likely to make incorrect assumptions based on your shoes, etc.
"I'm here to listen to this stuff, after which I'll call around and see which dealer will give me the best price on it" WOULD be honest, but most of those folks who do that know it's unseemly and won't own up to it.

But short of that, yes, honestly about where you are in the process is a good idea. "I"m just starting my search for new speakers" for example.
 

microstrip

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Fortunately I have a relation of friendship with my usual high-end dealer - surely as he has to pay wages, rents, have a stock and sometimes pay for my dinner, he must make money when dealing with me.

It is a pity that a word abusively distorted and out of context is used by the OP to bite the author and readers - the article is on the on the relation between the high-end dealer and the audiophiles - the word "friend "is used in very restrictive way . I quote "Once gain your high-end dealer is your best friend in this hobby." And the author clearly explains why he thinks so .
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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In the last 30 years, I have done business primarily with 2 primary dealers (plus 2-3 others on a more occasional basis). 1 of the 2 retired, but we had done 15 years of business together.

The other still looks after us to this day. When we bought second hand FROM SOMEONE ELSE, we still always paid him a "handling fee" anyway. It meant we wanted to ensure we were finding ways to be loyal to him and his business, and we also had an agreement then that if anything went wrong, he would provide service, pick up, loaner equipment during repair. That kind of symbiotic relationship and mutual respect has served us both well. He has reciprocated that good will in finding great deals for us in his own portfolio of goods or when distributors or manufacturers are providing quiet deals. And we have thus genuinely made an effort to focus all of the vast majority of purchases through him. That is closer to 17 years now.
 

SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
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There is another side to the Audio Dealer - Customer coin as it were that also bears discussing. This may strike some as controversial and it is not my intent to inflame or offend anyone so please read this in the spirit that it is intended.

The vast majority of write-ups on this topic, and certainly the latest article PTA, focus on the negative customer behavior angle to things. The fact is, there are myriad examples of good, mediocre and bad on both sides of the aisle, both dealer and customer. Also the article in PTA calling out the fact that a dealer will be our "best friend" is a bizarre use of the term. True friendship, by its definition, at least to me, includes mutual interest of both parties in the other however it does NOT include one party deriving financial profit from the other. That at least IMHO tends to skew the relationship one way or the other and that is certainly not friendship. I think though that the author was using the phrase loosely and to make a slightly different point so I'll leave it there and hope to avoid spawning philosophical debates on the subject!

More to the point...

The money that gets spent on high-end audio is for most of us, like our cars, automobiles (above and beyond the basic need to have a car for conveyance), hard-earned money that often must be saved after life's priorities are paid for, over the course of months and sometimes years.

High-end audio is one of the few and possibly, the only luxury item market, where dealers expect manufacturers to protect territories and in many cases, expect customers to adhere to them no matter what "just because" and where a few dealers out there think that just because they operate in a region and have a given logo to sell that they are now "your dealer". I have experienced this first hand 3 times and will explain in more detail why I'm calling out this aspect.

Consumers who spend their hard-earned money have the right in any markets to spend where they get the best combination of;

  • product including availability of product at the level we are interested in; that product is often people & their knowledge as well
  • true hands-on knowledge of those products
  • price, warranty, support (after all, business is competitive)
  • service
  • respect as a customer and overall customer care and decent treatment from a human point of view


No one thinks twice about going to multiple automobile dealerships in various cities and towns and sometimes even nearby states to seek out and drive cars we are interested in and to shop for the "best combination of the above points" relative to our personal priorities. It's the same for boats, motorcycles, jewelry, art work, furniture or anything else. "Best" is relative to our personal priorities and is often a mix as for example, many of us may elect to pay a few percent more if that auto dealership is closer to our home or has a better service rating or treated us better or has the actual model of car we are interested in and is hands-on knowledgeable about that model, not just the model 2 or 3 levels lower with the sales pitch "the upper model is simply better, you should buy it from me as I'm your dealer" being their only response.

In my line of work, the same thing holds; I am either selling the best combination of (superior people, knowledge, hands-on experience, service, results and price) or my firm may lose the deal! It's a balancing act where higher price may be positioned as a "value-sell" in terms of superior track record and proven results, more experienced people, knowledge level, customer care, etc...but rest assured, customers don't buy "just because" we offer something to them and are close by.

It's mystifying to me that high end audio, as a market, has dealers with the EXPECTATION that just because we move to a zip code that is reasonably nearby or we've called them to ask questions about a specific product in a manufacturer's line that they offer that when they only have the unit 2, 3, 4 levels below that and cannot answer even the most basic questions about the more advanced unit or speaker I am interested in, why they think I "must" buy from them or that somehow they are now "my dealer" and I owe them my purchase.

If a seller of anything, audio, cars, jewelry, furniture, whatever.....can provide the product, knowledge, service, price and overall treatment as a customer, etc...and add value to my life, then and only then do they get the sale. It's really that simple. Why in high-end audio for some reason people seek to enforce different rules than for any other area of Seller - Consumer relations is quite honestly beyond me.

I've run into the negative side of these behaviors 3 times and the posts above reflect that I'm sure.

All this stated, there are many audio dealers who definitely provide all the points above. Those rare and good people in this industry don't deserve the tire kickers and purely price mongers who will use and abuse them either as per the points in the PTA article.

FWIW...
 

metaphacts

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Feb 1, 2011
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..High-end audio is one of the few and possibly, the only luxury item market, where dealers expect manufacturers to protect territories and in many cases, expect customers to adhere to them no matter what "just because" and where a few dealers out there think that just because they operate in a region and have a given logo to sell that they are now "your dealer". I have experienced this first hand 3 times and will explain in more detail why I'm calling out this aspect...

.. It's mystifying to me that high end audio, as a market, has dealers with the EXPECTATION that just because we move to a zip code that is reasonably nearby or we've called them to ask questions about a specific product in a manufacturer's line that they offer that when they only have the unit 2, 3, 4 levels below that and cannot answer even the most basic questions about the more advanced unit or speaker I am interested in, why they think I "must" buy from them or that somehow they are now "my dealer" and I owe them my purchase..

..If a seller of anything, audio, cars, jewelry, furniture, whatever.....can provide the product, knowledge, service, price and overall treatment as a customer, etc...and add value to my life, then and only then do they get the sale. It's really that simple. Why in high-end audio for some reason people seek to enforce different rules than for any other area of Seller - Consumer relations is quite honestly beyond me...
The entitled territory in high end is a half century old, fully entrenched industry concept. It is absurd to tell people they must spend large sums of money based on a line on a map yet our industry by and large adheres to it like a religion.

Wilson Audio eliminated dealer territories in North America almost a decade ago. Geographical lines were replaced by a very high customer service expectations and requirements. There have certainly been bumps along the way. We have lost dealers who could not move beyond the old guard mentality.

It's a pretty simple concept for a dealer. Customers have a choice. Be the one they choose.

ymmv
 

Addicted to hifi

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Having worked for a few dealers many, many years ago and having a variety of experiences, to me it goes both ways.

Back in the 70's and 80's mail order was the competition, and we all had experiences spending an hour or ten over perhaps several weeks with a customer setting up and auditioning various gear, sometimes in-home, only to call a few weeks later and find out he saved 5% or 10% via mail order. Today we have the internet. It is hard work and time-consuming to set up a system, explain what is different among various components, and work with a customer to identify what they have, what they want, and how best to fulfill their needs and wants (rarely the same thing). And yes the goal is to make a sale, that's why the store exists, but for many stores the relationship matters if only because it may lead to more sales in the future from that customer and his friends. And frankly I am not a people person (I was a tech, rarely on the sales floor, but also did installs and in-home repairs) but found it interesting to hear stories and meet people passionate about their music. I have a lot of good memories from those days.

On the flip side, I have walked into stores wearing decent jeans and a dress shirt (my normal attire) and being shown the "cheap room" or just told to wander the aisles. At one high-end store a friend and I had very similar experiences at different times trying to hear some more expensive gear (not WBF expensive, but in the $25k range for a pair of speakers and perhaps $30k to $50k for the system). I was listening to one pair of speakers and asked if another pair could be listened in the same room and same equipment, did not care which room we used, just wanted to hear them side-by-side. That's why I go to a dealer, after all. I was told it was too much effort and was I going to buy today? I said no, I wanted to listen to a couple of other pairs they did not carry as well. I understand their point of view but it was a disappointing experience despite gaining some useful knowledge. As I was leaving one of the salesman/managers (I was never sure) asked if I could afford speakers like that. I said yes, told him what I had then (they had never asked), and walked out. My friend is a crusty old fart and they basically told him the stuff he was looking at was out of his range and why not try this stuff over here? In both cases that store lost sales and any future business. We bought the speakers, the same ones the store carried, from different dealers. My friend bought a full system, replacing his old one, and I have bought a number of things from my new-found dealer/friend as well as sending other friends his way.

It is walking a tightrope, or maybe a knife-edge, because you really never know the customer's mind and finances. But some of the high-end stores these days (based on VERY limited experience!) seem to focus more on the customer (obviously) rich enough to buy large-scale systems and extensive installations than the little guy starting out or even the mid-range guy like me with <$100k in the system who does not wear a business suit to the store. I had a totally opposite experience at another dealer and bought from him. My friend did the same (with a different dealer than mine). OTOH the original store has probably had plenty of folk just like us walk in, waste time, and walk out. Why spend the effort when there was not going to be a sale that day, and maybe never? They still seem to be doing a good business so must be doing OK at identifying paying customers.

I'm glad I am not in sales.
Couldn’t agree more.I to have had good and bad experiences at hifi shops over the years.the good dealers of corse got my consistent business.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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My dealer and I are friends. We became friends before he was my dealer. We have cooked for each other in our respective homes. We have met each others wives and children. We have introduced each other to our other friends And we can discuss politics freely and openly which is something I can rarely do with my other friends. It’s a good relationship that goes beyond audio.
 

bonzo75

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And we can discuss politics freely and openly which is something I can rarely do with my other friends.
Same or different views? freely and openly is relevant only if discussed with people with opposing views
 

andromedaaudio

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High-end audio is one of the few and possibly, the only luxury item market, where dealers expect manufacturers to protect territories and in many cases, expect customers to adhere to them no matter what "just because" and where a few dealers out there think that just because they operate in a region and have a given logo to sell that they are now "your dealer"
The Snobby Art dealers circle would be another one .
But its only a percentage , there are some very nice down to earth dealers as well .

Some snobby dealers think they are all that just because they mix component A with B and cable C , lol

What i find terribly lacking though in general is a custom state of the art listening room .
If i would want to be a top high end dealer , i would want that piece of the puzzle sorted out as well .

Products can only shine so far a the room does .

Ps the Wilson / Mark levinson / D agostino distributor in the netherlands is a very good example how it can be , down to earth practical guy / good service .
 
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howiebrou

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Seems to me a lot of this could be avoided if one is up front with the dealer about what their intentions are or are not. That way there’s no guessing game and a dealer is less likely to make incorrect assumptions based on your shoes, etc.
A dealer who makes an assumption based on your shoes is none too bright I wager. Shorts, flip flops and a Casio are my standard fare for visiting new dealers.
 

bonzo75

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A dealer who makes an assumption based on your shoes is none too bright I wager. Shorts, flip flops and a Casio are my standard fare for visiting new dealers.

Dealers can see you feast like a king
 

andromedaaudio

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I once pulled up at a snobby dealer with my motorbike , a Ducati streetfighter S at the time .
He looked at me all full of himself and he said i dont think motorbikes are allowed to park here lol .
I agree the bike is kinda loud . :)
 

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