Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Bruce!

David advises unequivocally not to use any active or passive vibration isolation system under the Thorens Reference. David advises only a stiff, solid, heavy stand.

Do you know why Simon York said not to use a granite top plate on a stand?

 

[Steve Williams]

Do you know why Simon York said not to use a granite top plate on a stand?

Joe Lavrencik from CMS told me the exact same thing

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you, Bruce!

David advises unequivocally not to use any active or passive vibration isolation system under the Thorens Reference. David advises only a stiff, solid, heavy stand.

Do you know why Simon York said not to use a granite top plate on a stand?

granite can sound bright and dead too. a bad combination. any natural product is basically a crap shoot of unpredictable results since they have natural variances.

if you are looking for solidity and mass loading maybe consider some sort of engineered product with predictable results.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Joe Lavrencik from CMS told me the exact same thing

That is interesting, Steve. Do you know why Joe said that?

 

[Ron Resnick]

granite can sound bright and dead too. a bad combination. any natural product is basically a crap shoot of unpredictable results since they have natural variances.

if you are looking for solidity and mass loading maybe consider some sort of engineered product with predictable results.

Thank you, Mike. What would you recommend for an engineered product to take the place of a granite stand-top for a turntable?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you, Mike. What would you recommend for an engineered product to take the place of a granite stand-top for a turntable?

here is one product to consider;

https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80

I've not used panzerholz myself but it might be good.

another way to go would be to investigate what industry/academics does when they need some sort of high mass solid table. look on websites of active isolation companies and you might find a table which does what you want. and not at inflated audiophile prices.

but I might also keep your mind open. David is a brilliant guy with tons of experience, but maybe experiment for yourself and try a few approaches. find your own happy place.

 

[microstrip]

Thank you, Bruce!

David advises unequivocally not to use any active or passive vibration isolation system under the Thorens Reference. David advises only a stiff, solid, heavy stand.

Do you know why Simon York said not to use a granite top plate on a stand?

My old Simon Yorke S7 came with an integral black granite plate - I can imagine that having two plates of the same material could risk creating an high Q resonance, as the two plates could have similar mechanical behavior.

Congratulations on the Thorens Reference - it looks as the best european vintage turntables have run away! I could locate an EMT927, but never a Thorens Reference.

 

[Barry2013]

Thank you, Mike. What would you recommend for an engineered product to take the place of a granite stand-top for a turntable?

Hi Ron,
Sometime back I looked into isolation platforms and although I didn't pursue it I remember finding a manufacturer in the US of high end isolation platforms for the scientific community - for microscopes and the like.
Can't remember the name now but what I do remember is that they sold used ones in addition to new ones in a range of sizes and costs.
Probably not too difficult to track down on Google but come back to me if you draw a blank.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Mike, Barry, Microstrip!

 

[thekong]

Hi Ron,

You may consider these top plates from TMC:

http://www.techmfg.com/products/breadboards/CleanTop-Breadboards.html

 

[BruceD]

Thank you, Bruce!

David advises unequivocally not to use any active or passive vibration isolation system under the Thorens Reference. David advises only a stiff, solid, heavy stand.

Do you know why Simon York said not to use a granite top plate on a stand?

Yes I would listen to the purveyor of great Wisdom when it comes to his Turntables-- regards to the "heavy stand"--I have a Friend also with a Shindo 301 -he swears by his German Lignolab Stand--I must admit it sure looks the part reminds me of the Biedermeier built Tables we had in our Apartment in Hamburg--ha!

Simon--when he was producing the Tables was adamant he was not fan of the Granite-- he did not elaborate---I used the Silestone as he suggested and was very pleased with that under his TT but preferred the Wood under the Shindo/Garrard.

Exciting times on your calendar---Wooo!

BruceD

 

[Ron Resnick]

I see a Lignolab Table of Silence. Is that the stand?

 

[BruceD]

I see a Lignolab Table of Silence. Is that the stand?

Ugh! not the Liquorice Allsort abomination it is bench thick square supports as this one below from the same company--but I don't think it is as long as the Pic shown

BruceD

 

[PeterA]

My heavy stand is a custom job made such that the top of each leg at each corner is plain metal. I am looking for a new top plate, as the one I use from VPI was never reassuringly solid (it is only MDF).

I found a company that makes heavy, well-machined granite top plates, but with a thin layer of silicone underneath to provide some passive vibration damping. This silicone layer bonded to the underside of the granite plate would also have the effect of conforming a little bit to the metal tops of the legs at each corner.

I wonder if even this layer of silicone would not be the right answer if I were to use a Herzan on top of the granite plate.

It would be nice to allow the silicone layer underneath to "melt" into the tops of the metal corner posts in case the tops of the four corner posts are not perfectly the same height, but not if even that thin layer of damping might make the granite plate not perfectly stiff and solid and optimal for the Herzan.

What do you think, Mike? Has anyone else experimented with a similar situation?

Ron, have you considered the full Critical Mass System similar to what Steve just got? That might just be the ticket.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Peter, Yes I have thought about CMS, as Steve raves about the improvements CMS stands have made to the sound of his system and I have met, and I like, Joe.

The CMS is an intelligent, sophisticated design using aluminum and other materials and mechanical filters, as opposed to the traditional heroically heavy, solid, massive stand I have now.

Without listening to the turntable on each stand, side-by-side, I do not know how to choose one design philosophy over the other.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, Yes I have thought about CMS, as Steve raves about the improvements CMS stands have made to the sound of his system and I have met, and I like, Joe.

The CMS is an intelligent, sophisticated design using aluminum and other materials and mechanical filters, as opposed to the traditional heroically heavy, solid, massive stand I have now.

Without listening to the turntable on each stand, side-by-side, I do not know how to choose one design philosophy over the other.

That's a tough one. I'd live with what you have until you can try an alternative in you own system or are able to hear something similar in another well known system. I had an SME Model 10 and took a chance by buying an inexpensive Townshend Seismic Sink. I was pretty surprised by the improvement I heard. So, I read up on Vibraplanes, and then found one used to try that under the turntable. Sure enough, it was even better. In the absence of being able to do direct comparisons in one's own system, one can try to extrapolate for experiments or from others' experiences.

Keep the sturdy traditional stand that you have. Try your new turntable on that and live with it for a while. Get to know your system. Research what others do who own your Thorens. This can be a slow, deliberate and fun process.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter, Yes I have thought about CMS, as Steve raves about the improvements CMS stands have made to the sound of his system and I have met, and I like, Joe.

The CMS is an intelligent, sophisticated design using aluminum and other materials and mechanical filters, as opposed to the traditional heroically heavy, solid, massive stand I have now.

Without listening to the turntable on each stand, side-by-side, I do not know how to choose one design philosophy over the other.

That's a tough one. I'd live with what you have until you can try an alternative in you own system or are able to hear something similar in another well known system. I had an SME Model 10 and took a chance by buying an inexpensive Townshend Seismic Sink. I was pretty surprised by the improvement I heard. So, I read up on Vibraplanes, and then found one used to try that under the turntable. Sure enough, it was even better. In the absence of being able to do direct comparisons in one's own system, one can try to extrapolate for experiments or from others' experiences.

Keep the sturdy traditional stand that you have. Try your new turntable on that and live with it for a while. Get to know your system. Research what others do who own your Thorens. This can be a slow, deliberate and fun process.

Ron,

plug and play is always tempting. you are sitting there committed to a big heavy turntable and trying to plan for the ideal solution. it's not trivial to try different methods of support. you either have to take someone else's word for what that 'ideal' might be, or investigate for yourself when you finally have things set up. I'm with Peter leaning toward the latter.

your system is not going through the normal evolution 'in place'; you are intending/trying/hoping to 'hatch' it fully realized. that is fun to talk about but daunting to actually execute. synergy is typically an earned process and not attained theoretically. keep your mind and ears open to things.

btw; I would be going through the same mental process as you are, were I in your shoes. wanting to plan everything out just right. best wishes working it all out and enjoy the process.

 

[Jeffy]

How come you are net getting a Basis table now?

Peter, Yes I have thought about CMS, as Steve raves about the improvements CMS stands have made to the sound of his system and I have met, and I like, Joe.

The CMS is an intelligent, sophisticated design using aluminum and other materials and mechanical filters, as opposed to the traditional heroically heavy, solid, massive stand I have now.

Without listening to the turntable on each stand, side-by-side, I do not know how to choose one design philosophy over the other.

 

[ddk]

Peter, Yes I have thought about CMS, as Steve raves about the improvements CMS stands have made to the sound of his system and I have met, and I like, Joe.

The CMS is an intelligent, sophisticated design using aluminum and other materials and mechanical filters, as opposed to the traditional heroically heavy, solid, massive stand I have now.

Without listening to the turntable on each stand, side-by-side, I do not know how to choose one design philosophy over the other.

Hi Ron,

Racks like CMS, SR, etc. are very fine products and work as advertised as do properly designed high mass racks. I haven't tried a CMS or SR under any of my tables but I have tried other active & passive solutions and found out that while great with electronics they alter the sound to some degree with my particular tts. I got the best results from a solid, massive foundation topped with a 1/2" or 3/4" slab of steel. It's still what I recommend for high massed tts, they work very well and you always have the option to add/try a platform from specialists.

david

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Ron,

Racks like CMS, SR, etc. are very fine products and work as advertised as do properly designed high mass racks. I haven't tried a CMS or SR under any of my tables but I have tried other active & passive solutions and found out that while great with electronics they alter the sound to some degree with my particular tts. I got the best results from a solid, massive foundation topped with a 1/2" or 3/4" slab of steel. It's still what I recommend for high massed tts, they work very well and you always have the option to add/try a platform from specialists.

david

Hi David

Indeed, having been to your home and having heard your museum of turntables on those high mass racks I can attest that they all sounded fine to my ears. My problem was their overall size and the limited geography I have in my room that precluded their use. It would have saved me a lot of $$$ if I could have gone that route. I am very happy with my overall result and what it has done to lower my perceived sound floor to virtually non existent so I am a big supporter behind Joe's science