Seismion - new active isolation platform from Germany

Zeotrope

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Great news!
As an owner of both DarTZeel 18NS and 108 and Seismion platforms, I can attest to the significant difference the Seismion make. It was about as big of an improvement as transitioning from Kondo Japan M77 and Souga to the DarTZeel.
 

Scatterbrain99

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I would love to learn which LPS's you and other Seismion owners are using. I have four Reactio's and am contemplating a few more to complete things. I have yet to try a LPS.

And I am curious: what differences in sound quality do you hear when going from their standard SMPS to an LPS with your Seismion's?

I've tried few high quality linear PSU with my seismions. However, I realized that peak current delivery is very important. I ended up using LHY Audio LPS80VA and LPS160VA models, because despite their modest price the peak current delivery being 5A+, made the Seismion sound better than other more expensive linear PSU I tried which were 12V/3A max.
 

Zeotrope

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I am using 12V/5A linear power supplies from Teddy Pardo. At about $400 each, they are fairly reasonably priced. Made in Israel by a team that only builds power supplies. I would trust them over just about anyone else when it comes to quality PSUs.
 

Seismion

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BTW: We are glad to announce a new cooperation with german turntable designer Helmut Thiele. Helmut has 30 years of experience in designing his own turntables and cooperating with other companies. While he designed the mechanical housing for the active damping base ADB01, the active isolation components, well known from the Reactio and Reactio plus, are contributed by Seismion.

A few first photos together with his TT01 turntable can be found in the thread:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-dedicated-active-isolation-base-adb01.38599/

Helmut will be attending this week's AXPONA show in Chicago, this will be a great opportunity to experience the new system first hand for everybody who has the chance to visit it.
 
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Jazzjunkie

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@TLi: your nice tube amp looks very heavy and seems to have quite more weight back where the transformers are placed. Can you compensate this difference in center of gravity with leveling the platform mechanism, so it still works as intended?
 

TLi

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@TLi: your nice tube amp looks very heavy and seems to have quite more weight back where the transformers are placed. Can you compensate this difference in center of gravity with leveling the platform mechanism, so it still works as intended?
Audio Note Kondo Kagura 2i power amp is 62kg each. The rear end is more heavy.

Reactio Plus has four screws in four corners to adjust the tension of the springs. It compensates the loading to give a level platform.
 

Jazzjunkie

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Thanks, yes, would possibly be more borderline with a 100kg amp, but good to hear it can compensate this weight in the back. You have some really nice gear, phew..
 
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Seismion

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Thanks, yes, would possibly be more borderline with a 100kg amp, but good to hear it can compensate this weight in the back. You have some really nice gear, phew..
Hello Jazzjunkie,
as TLi wrote, the Reactio plus is capable to adapt to uneven weight distribution. While the maximum payload for a centric mass is about 100 kg (actually slightly more than that), this value reduces a little bit if the center of gravity (COG) is out of the middle. Think of it the way, that each corner can carry about 25 kg. If the mass is concentrated more to one side, then this side will have to carry more than the other side.
That means your 100 kg system with unsymmetric COG is indeed borderline.

However, since the whole production is done in-house at Seismion, we offer the option to adjust the weight limitation of the Reactio plus according to our customers need. The only limitation is that the minimum weight also increases the same amount, which means for example a range 10 - 110 kg, 20 - 120 kg etc. up to maybe 50 - 150 kg.

We offer this option without additional costs.
If you are interested to get such a system, feel free to contact us directly.

Marcus
 
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Jazzjunkie

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Thanks Marcus, this flexibility is appreciated!
Do you also think about offering more than 2 size options?

Some platforms like the Accurion Silencer have an LED indication of active compensating operation and (non)operation out of optimal range. From this thread I got, that you currently just offer the latter. Any LED, especially when often flashing, can be annoying, but if so, it’s also easy to cover it or, it could be designed by the manufacturer, so that it can be switched off. I think an optional display of the grade of compensating operation with a simple LED (no screen) would be interesting and shouldn’t stretch the budget too much. Am I wrong?

It would also be very interesting to know about differences of your product compared to concrete other main competitors (aware that this would just be your point of view).

And how does coupling of the equipment to the platform influence the quality of operation? I suspect, the harder the better but which direction should e.g. spikes have?

I guess you’re used to the fact that folks who think about such products tend to go a bit into detail ;-) But no problem to contact you directly for detail questions in case you prefer.
 
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Seismion

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Thanks Marcus, this flexibility is appreciated!
Do you also think about offering more than 2 size options?

Some platforms like the Accurion Silencer have an LED indication of active compensating operation and (non)operation out of optimal range. From this thread I got, that you currently just offer the latter. Any LED, especially when often flashing, can be annoying, but if so, it’s also easy to cover it or, it could be designed by the manufacturer, so that it can be switched off. I think an optional display of the grade of compensating operation with a simple LED (no screen) would be interesting and shouldn’t stretch the budget too much. Am I wrong?

It would also be very interesting to know about differences of your product compared to concrete other main competitors (aware that this would just be your point of view).

And how does coupling of the equipment to the platform influence the quality of operation? I suspect, the harder the better but which direction should e.g. spikes have?

I guess you’re used to the fact that folks who think about such products tend to go a bit into detail ;-) But no problem to contact you directly for detail questions in case you prefer.

In fact, our Reactio plus does not feature an indication if the load adjustment is in the optimal range or not. However, there is only the two conditions a) top-plate is free to vibrate and b) top-plate is clamped and not able to move. It can easily be identified by touching the top-plate with the hands. Once it is free, it is not really important to have it precisely levelled, as long as there is some gap up and downwards then it is enough.
An optional display, and other features is on our list for a new generation of Reactio isolators. For now, the main focus is on a perfect isolation performance.
And answering your questions about the comparison of other competitors: we (and actually also our industrial customers) performed measurements under the same conditions, which proved that our isolators have a better low-frequency isolation (which is the most difficult one to achieve) in realistic operation. Beside that, our isolators offer a much lower noise level, which is essential for a perfect isolation result.

For example Accurion (now belonging to Park Systems) publish the following performance curve on their website (i4 product flyer, page 5):

accurion i4.png
I want to focus on the text below, which states the graph was measured at a velocity of 100 µm/s. This basically means they placed it on a shaker with a controlled, large excitation while performing the measurement.
One can easily understand that this is not the typical environment where the isolator is used. Normally, already the floor or base structure, where the isolator is placed on should be as vibration free as possible.
Surely, Accurion did this on purpose. My educated guess would be, that they don't achieve the same performance with low excitation, since they are limited by their noise floor.
We at Seismion measure our isolators by a pure floor excitation, which in our lab is about 100 times smaller than 100 µm/s. And still, we achieve the same isolation performance as with larger excitation. Audiophile clients with the highest demands for perfect music reproduction typically already take care of a noise- and vibration-free environment. Here is where our Reactio really shines and brings it to a new level.

Concerning coupling with the devices on top: yes, typically it should be a hard and direct connection to the isolator. You can consider every soft connection above the isolator as another (passive) isolation stage, which means the Reactio does not have a direct intervention on it anymore. This would be especially important for devices like turntables, which generate some vibrations on their own.
 
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Jazzjunkie

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Thanks much for the detailed answer!
Regarding coupling to the platform, I guess the more resonating part should be coupled with tip direction to the less resonating (if we speak of directional spikes or similar), correct? Would you say in case of a heavy record player, the base of the Seismion platform is more resonating (from floor resonances) than the player itself or the opposite?
 

TLi

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Active isolators like Seismion and others reduce vibrational energy from transmitting through the isolators. You can look at them as a buffer between the rack and equipment. Coupling equipment and active isolator is another issue all together.

You can use your favorite spikes or footers above and below isolators to fine tune the sound. IMG_3747.JPG I have used many different spikes, metal cubes and footers both above and below the platform to get the sound that I want. It is a fun process. You start with nothing and bit by bit add the couplers.

Enclosed photo shows my current setup under my preamp.
 

Jazzjunkie

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Thanks for your input! To be honest, I didn’t assume I’d tweak the sound with how I use and couple to/from active isolation, but rather assumed, there’s a way that makes it most effective. If I’d not like the resulting sound, I’d search elsewhere to modify/improve. That’s why I asked for the “proper” way to couple/decouple to and from the top and bottom of it, depending on how self-resonating the equipment on top is. I’d certainly not have the motor placed on the same direct platform as the turntable, but below the isolation level.

Can you maybe help with another question:
For a record player it’s more essential to get it in perfect horizontal balance than for amps. The Seismion platforms have 4 feet (not 3, which would make defined horizontal leveling easier but certainly be less stable). Do the 4 adjustable Seismion feet offer enough height variation for leveling? I’d want to avoid, having to buy additional (3) leveling feet for above or below as you did. But if I had to…do you have recommendations for smaller or bigger feet with height adjustment option?
 
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Seismion

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Active isolators like Seismion and others reduce vibrational energy from transmitting through the isolators. You can look at them as a buffer between the rack and equipment. Coupling equipment and active isolator is another issue all together.

You can use your favorite spikes or footers above and below isolators to fine tune the sound. View attachment 129777 I have used many different spikes, metal cubes and footers both above and below the platform to get the sound that I want. It is a fun process. You start with nothing and bit by bit add the couplers.

Enclosed photo shows my current setup under my preamp.
The explanation of TLi about active vibration isolators is absolutly spot on, at least when talking about our isolators (our competitors might use some other techniques). We use a control that is described as "sky hooked damping". The whole active subsystem (sensors, feedback-electronics, actuators) behave in a very similar way like a viscous damper that is connected to an imaginary, inertially fixed point (therefore called "sky"). In this way the active damping forces always act against any vibration of the top-plate, and thus reducing them. It can be understood as an energy sink, since the damper is purely dissipative, and it reduces any energy flow from ground to the top or the other way round.

As simple as it might sound, the challenges are in countless details. For example, there is no such perfect inertially fixed point, which means you have to invest a lot for developing a sensor and a control to come as close as possible. Beside that, the damping constant should be increased as much as possible, before being unstable.
BTW: A simple ground-hooked damper (maybe even a passive one), does not yield the same result, since it would add another transfer path of ground vibrations into the top-plate, which is to be avoided.

This sky-hooked damping of our active isolator is totally different to any passive isolation device. These passive isolators only rely on a very soft connection to the ground (some are even called "Zero-stiffness isolators, or refer to the name minus k), which means they try to minimize the path of disturbance onto the top-plate. But once the top-plate is excited directly (by a turntable for example, or by sound-pressure, ...), then the soft connection does not provide any stabilization or damping. In contrast, our active isolator is held very stable by relatively strong springs, and more importantly, by the synthetic sky-hooked damper.

Generally, the term "Stabilizer" better describes what our Reactio (plus) is doing. And this is more general than "just" isolation.

This effect is demonstrate in the following youtube-video, where a Vitus SIA 030 integeated amplifier is placed on a Reactio plus (chinese language, but with subtitles). Around 4m:40s he shakes the Vitus while the isolator is turned off, and around 5:25 when turned on. This also demonstrates how robust our isolator is concerning large amplitudes.
 

Jazzjunkie

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Very interesting! I didn’t expect it’s so softly suspended and that it also works for large amplitudes.
Would you recommend to also place the most resonating part (the motor) on the platform together with the turntable, or separated (where the design allows it)? My assumption is, it’s better to just allow a connection to the table by the string/belt and to avoid keeping the platform busy with the vibrating motor itself.

I further guess, the major decision criteria how (tip up or down) to place coupling/decoupling feet between the equipment and the base is, if the major vibration comes from the equipment (and/or sound/air borne) or from the base under the platform (floor/house resonance), correct? I assumed you might have measured optimal setup in this regard for certain examples.
 

TLi

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May 27, 2016
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Very interesting! I didn’t expect it’s so softly suspended and that it also works for large amplitudes.
Would you recommend to also place the most resonating part (the motor) on the platform together with the turntable, or separated (where the design allows it)? My assumption is, it’s better to just allow a connection to the table by the string/belt and to avoid keeping the platform busy with the vibrating motor itself.

I further guess, the major decision criteria how (tip up or down) to place coupling/decoupling feet between the equipment and the base is, if the major vibration comes from the equipment (and/or sound/air borne) or from the base under the platform (floor/house resonance), correct? I assumed you might have measured optimal setup in this regard for certain examples.
The major vibration of turntable comes from the platter. No platter is 100% dynamically balanced. When it turns, it swings. Active isolator can compensate to a several degree this flutter but not much.

The main function of active isolation with turntable is to reduce environmental vibration from feeding back to the record during play. When music is played, the whole room and equipment rack is vibrating with the sound, this creates a feedback loop back to record surface causing a resonant sound. This reduces resolution. The vibration of motor and platter become secondary.

As I said before, active isolator, like Reactio +/- plus, reduces vibration coming from the rack. This reduction is not 100%, although it is close. Adding extra spikes or cones above and below isolator can further fine tune the sound, but again this is secondary.
 

Seismion

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Very interesting! I didn’t expect it’s so softly suspended and that it also works for large amplitudes.
Would you recommend to also place the most resonating part (the motor) on the platform together with the turntable, or separated (where the design allows it)? My assumption is, it’s better to just allow a connection to the table by the string/belt and to avoid keeping the platform busy with the vibrating motor itself.

I further guess, the major decision criteria how (tip up or down) to place coupling/decoupling feet between the equipment and the base is, if the major vibration comes from the equipment (and/or sound/air borne) or from the base under the platform (floor/house resonance), correct? I assumed you might have measured optimal setup in this regard for certain examples.
Yes, I think the large allowable amplitudes and robustness is one key point that distinguishes us from other active vibration isolators. It also ensures that under all typical amplitudes the isolators is still very much in the linear range, so it does not have any distortion at all, which would be seen in higher frequencies.
With the other questions I would also suggest to rely on TLi's response. His long-term experience in high-end audio, with a focus on vibration isolation is hard to beat.
We have experienced such an audible feedback loop from the loudspeakers back to the turntable by our own, and the isolator is doint an impressive job to totally eliminate that.
Since there are infinite number of setups, coupled with different environment/floors, so it is hard to give general answers.

One remark though: a turning, and not 100% dynamically balanced platter will excite vibrations with a frequency of roughly 0.5 Hz. A high-quality, passive air spring isolator starts isolation around 3-4 Hz maybe, high-end active isolators already below 1 Hz. The Reactio plus for example already has -12 dB reduction at 1 Hz, and therefore also sub-Hertz isolation. This detail shows that even very low frequency isolation is important, although it is out of the audible range.
 

MTS

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Jan 6, 2023
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Very interesting! I didn’t expect it’s so softly suspended and that it also works for large amplitudes.
Would you recommend to also place the most resonating part (the motor) on the platform together with the turntable, or separated (where the design allows it)? My assumption is, it’s better to just allow a connection to the table by the string/belt and to avoid keeping the platform busy with the vibrating motor itself.

I further guess, the major decision criteria how (tip up or down) to place coupling/decoupling feet between the equipment and the base is, if the major vibration comes from the equipment (and/or sound/air borne) or from the base under the platform (floor/house resonance), correct? I assumed you might have measured optimal setup in this regard for certain examples.
In order to achieve the optimal performance of active isolators applied in audio playback, I have installed different audiophile platforms and footers beneath both the active isolators and the audio components. These passive platforms and footers function well and play as a synergic role to enhance the performance of the active isolators. However, the only way to construct the appropriate combination for your system is to try by yourself!

For example, I have tried a few audio footers beneath my Audio Research pre-amp, including spikes, ceramic footers, metal cubes and the original footers of Audio Research. But I get the best sound reproduction when I removed the original footer of the pre-amp and put the machine directly on the top plate of Reactio. As for the power regenerator(PS audio P20), I used ceramic footers between Reactio and P20 to enhance the performance of active isolator. DSCF6046-1.JPG
DSCF6044-1.JPG
 

mtemur

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I heard Seismion platforms under a couple of amps and a turntable. I’m sorry to say that but it sucks the life out the music and reduce dynamics dramatically. If you have a bass and/or midbass thumb because of speakers or room you can be fooled by reduced dynamics but it is impossible to like the sound. Surprisingly when you turn it off it starts to sound better. Of course not as good as any other passive platform. I’m glad that it works for many people. Please listen again.

BTW there can be many question that something went wrong with our trial. No, we tried Seismion platforms the correct way, nothing was wrong, no component, speakers, room, electricity or our ears have problems.
 
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bonzo75

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I heard Seismion platforms under a couple of amps and a turntable. I’m sorry to say that but it sucks the life out the music and reduce dynamics dramatically. If you have a bass and/or midbass thumb because of speakers or room you can be fooled by reduced dynamics but it is impossible to like the sound. Surprisingly when you turn it off it starts to sound better. Of course not as good as any other passive platform. I’m glad that it works for many people. Please listen again.

BTW there can be many think that something is wrong with our trial. No, we tried Seismion platforms the correct way, nothing is wrong, no component, speakers, room, electricity or our ears have problems.
which are the passive platforms you rate apart from Shun Mooks?
 

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