Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[LL21]

Good to know, and glad to hear they stuck it out with you in the end. The good thing is...it seems like you now KNOW what the issue is, and you can go ahead and get it fixed...and i bet for a lot less money than shipping the Herzan back to be shipped, etc... Good luck and glad to hear you are getting somewhere now...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

well it appears I have jumped to a wrong conclusion. After my contact with Table Stable tech people in Switzerland, they recommended me do a final test to determine if the unit was faulty.

Place the unit on the floor with at least 120lbs and see how it works. (My unit has a preload requirement) since it has the heavy duty spring option that adds 100 additional lbs weight capacity.

I did this on my concrete basement floor. After 24 hours in active isolation mode...the unit is still functioning perfectly. I plan to go 24 more to be sure. In the end...it is not the unit...rather my stereo equipment stand (Adona Zero GXT)...their most heavy duty model. The frustrating and difficult part in all this was accepting my stand was the culprit even though it worked fine for 2 years before I started getting the resonate drift that caused the unit to foul.

So my criticism of Herzan service was unfounded. In essence...the unit was never broken...only the lateral rigidity of my stand. I am working on solutions to correct the issue with this stand or I will have a structural welded square tubular steel machine table made to order to support the TS-140 and my TT. Hopefully I can fix my current stand's rigidity necessary for the TS-140 to function properly.

My apologies for being a somewhat stubborn and difficult customer to deal with goes out to the Herzan team in California.

well that is good news about your TS-140.

as I have the exact same Herzan TS-140 and the exact same Adona Zero GTX rack and we have owned our Herzan units for the same amount of time I wonder why my TS-140 has been fine?

it's possible that your Adona GTX is not completely bolted together securely. I assume yours is on concrete like mine. the cross-braces on the GTX at the top and bottom certainly appear to do the job.

4 years ago I had mine shortened by 8 inches and maybe that matters too. my NVS tt weighs about 130-140 pounds with the two Durand Telos tone arms and stainless arm boards. and I have a 60 pound darTZeel preamp on the bottom shelf which can only help with stability.

do you use the granite/wood sandwich shelves? they certainly add mass and stability.

whenever I move my Adona rack when I place it back in it's spot i always put all my weight (and jump up and down a little) on the rack once it's in place to make sure the spikes are fully engaged into the concrete and there is zero wiggle. it does take some time adjusting the 4 spikes exactly right so the rack is dead solid and exactly level.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting stories about racks. Just judging from the photos of both Mike's and Christian's racks, they would seem to be very rigid. The Herzan is obviously an extremely sensitive instrument and it clearly demonstrates that small vibrations unnoticed by us humans can effect equipment. Though my passive Vibraplanes don't isolate to the same degree as these active Herzan platforms, I was told that I would hear an improvement simply because they isolate my amps and turntable from unfelt vibrations in the ground. The improvement is certainly audible.

Christian, how do you plan to fix your Adona rack? And when it is fully loaded, can you rock it, even slightly, with a forceful hand?

 

[rockitman]

well that is good news about your TS-140.

as I have the exact same Herzan TS-140 and the exact same Adona Zero GTX rack and we have owned our Herzan units for the same amount of time I wonder why my TS-140 has been fine?

it's possible that your Adona GTX is not completely bolted together securely. I assume yours is on concrete like mine. the cross-braces on the GTX at the top and bottom certainly appear to do the job.

4 years ago I had mine shortened by 8 inches and maybe that matters too. my NVS tt weighs about 130-140 pounds with the two Durand Telos tone arms and stainless arm boards. and I have a 60 pound darTZeel preamp on the bottom shelf which can only help with stability.

do you use the granite/wood sandwich shelves? they certainly add mass and stability.

whenever I move my Adona rack when I place it back in it's spot i always put all my weight (and jump up and down a little) on the rack once it's in place to make sure the spikes are fully engaged into the concrete and there is zero wiggle. it does take some time adjusting the 4 spikes exactly right so the rack is dead solid and exactly level.

The only thing I can come up with is your stand is shorter than mine which automatically makes it more laterally rigid. My stand also is sitting on their spiked feet which may not be the most rigid approach. I am going to remove them and sit the unit's columns directly on the carpet/floor which has concrete below. Just for your information, my stand is 33" tall from tip of spike to top of the top granite shelf. 24" is the measurement for the aluminum column portion of the legs.

 

[rockitman]

Interesting stories about racks. Just judging from the photos of both Mike's and Christian's racks, they would seem to be very rigid. The Herzan is obviously an extremely sensitive instrument and it clearly demonstrates that small vibrations unnoticed by us humans can effect equipment. Though my passive Vibraplanes don't isolate to the same degree as these active Herzan platforms, I was told that I would hear an improvement simply because they isolate my amps and turntable from unfelt vibrations in the ground. The improvement is certainly audible.

Christian, how do you plan to fix your Adona rack? And when it is fully loaded, can you rock it, even slightly, with a forceful hand?

While the vertical plane is rigid...laterally...it is not. It is quite easy to push on the stand from the side horizontal direction and get some movement. These isolation devices are very sensitive and a rigid stand is the number one criteria needed for it to perform isolation at its best or even at all which is now my case.

 

[PeterA]

While the vertical plane is rigid...laterally...it is not. It is quite easy to push on the stand from the side horizontal direction and get some movement. These isolation devices are very sensitive and a rigid stand is the number one criteria needed for it to perform isolation at its best or even at all which is now my case.

You may want to tighten the spikes all the way and then push the rack down forcing the spikes through the carpet and coupling to the concrete. I think, even if rigid, the rack might rock with lateral force because of the carpet and pad above the concrete. You must pierce through that so the spikes contact the concrete. Just a thought.

Even if the rack's top shelf is not 100% level with the spikes screwed into the rack legs all the way, you should be able to level the turntable relative to the top supporting shelf.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You may want to tighten the spikes all the way and then push the rack down forcing the spikes through the carpet and coupling to the concrete. I think, even if rigid, the rack might rock with lateral force because of the carpet and pad above the concrete. You must pierce through that so the spikes contact the concrete. Just a thought.

Even if the rack's top shelf is not 100% level with the spikes screwed into the rack legs all the way, you should be able to level the turntable relative to the top supporting shelf.

the TS-140 has auto-leveling which is essential to it's performance. if you push on one side the motors engage to try and level it. when you turn it on the first thing it does is to find level.

for optimal performance having a top surface that is close to level is important. but not perfect.....the TS-140 does that part.

zero compliance in the support is most important. any sort of compliance (past a certain amount of compliance) in the support will essentially cause the TS-140 to continually correct for level and burn out the motors.

the Herzan is a precision tool with a specific purpose and specific designed performance envelope and environmental requirement.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The only thing I can come up with is your stand is shorter than mine which automatically makes it more laterally rigid. My stand also is sitting on their spiked feet which may not be the most rigid approach. I am going to remove them and sit the unit's columns directly on the carpet/floor which has concrete below. Just for your information, my stand is 33" tall from tip of spike to top of the top granite shelf. 24" is the measurement for the aluminum column portion of the legs.

I will measure my rack legs tonight.

it's a 'bitch' cutting those legs with their shape. a friend with a machine shop (he builds race engines for stock cars) cut the legs and reassembled it for me and made sure it was square after he cut the legs down.

ordering new shorter legs from Adona is likely the easy way to go if you wanted shorter legs. that is not that expensive as the Adona is all modular.

 

[rockitman]

I will measure my rack legs tonight.

it's a 'bitch' cutting those legs with their shape. a friend with a machine shop (he builds race engines for stock cars) cut the legs and reassembled it for me and made sure it was square after he cut the legs down.

ordering new shorter legs from Adona is likely the easy way to go if you wanted shorter legs. that is not that expensive as the Adona is all modular.

Yup...just spent two hours taking down the rack...removing the spikes and set things back up. The performance of the TS140 was even worse. It must have to do with the height of my stand. If it's not to much trouble I would be interested in your measurement of the sliver aluminum leg portion only to compare with mine. I sent YouTube video links demonstrating the problem to the techs in Switzerland showing the 3 axis lcd screen going crazy. They estimated my stand had a resonant frequency of around 12 hz. Here are the links to the vids I sent them.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4RsAhcr_qM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLdLbRQuFIc

In the end, I may just need to get a welded square tube cube type table/stand that fits the ts140 and has no horizontal movement. The frustrating thing is that the stand used to work and now it doesn't. I now know after a 36 hour experiment with the TS140 on the concrete floor, it performed flawlessly. Crazy stuff.

 

[rockitman]

You may want to tighten the spikes all the way and then push the rack down forcing the spikes through the carpet and coupling to the concrete. I think, even if rigid, the rack might rock with lateral force because of the carpet and pad above the concrete. You must pierce through that so the spikes contact the concrete. Just a thought.

Even if the rack's top shelf is not 100% level with the spikes screwed into the rack legs all the way, you should be able to level the turntable relative to the top supporting shelf.

The spikes were seated through the carpet into the concrete. The top shelf TT components alone excluding the ts140 is 270lbs. The top shelf is 50 and the 2 other shelves are 40 lbs each.

 

[microstrip]

While the vertical plane is rigid...laterally...it is not. It is quite easy to push on the stand from the side horizontal direction and get some movement. These isolation devices are very sensitive and a rigid stand is the number one criteria needed for it to perform isolation at its best or even at all which is now my case.

Judging from this photo of their site, showing a detail of the base, the lateral behavior does not look very rigid - perhaps just having stronger bolts and nuts or larger and textured contact surfaces between sections would help the lateral stability. Did you try straightening the tower screws?

We must remember that most racks are not designed to support active platforms, but to sound good with normal equipment. The basics of your problem are similar to the reason why some turntable manufacturers advise people against the use of active platforms with their turntables - an active system is never resting!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

this might be helpful to show how ridged the frame of the Adona GTX level frame is....when it is properly attached and aligned'

 

[rockitman]

this might be helpful to show how ridged the frame of the Adona GTX level frame is....when it is properly attached and aligned'

View attachment 27947

If there was a center cross-member it might work. The way active isolation works (as you know)...when the sensors detect vibration, they look to counteract it. In order to do so it needs a solid surface to push off of. For some reason in my setup it is hyper sensitive to the instability in the horizontal plane. I still can't explain why it worked w/o issue for two years with the same stand and componentry on it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

my Adona rack is very stiff horizontally......certainly 'stiff enough' as far as I can tell. much stiffer than any other rack I have observed.

my Adona rack legs are 28 inches distance 'exposed' from one x-frame to the other one.

mine has the bottom and top shelves and 2 adjustable in between. I did remove my middle shelf for a few years which required me to disassemble the rack to remove the extra set of adjuster arms.

I cut down the legs due to the height of my tt including the Herzan to keep the platter height at a comfortable working height (the NVS is fairly tall) and so I could reasonably see the platter/arm action from my sitting position. I can't see the platter surface but can tell where the arm is on the platter. I don't like to be blind.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If there was a center cross-member it might work. The way active isolation works (as you know)...when the sensors detect vibration, they look to counteract it. In order to do so it needs a solid surface to push off of. For some reason in my setup it is hyper sensitive to the instability in the horizontal plane. I still can't explain why it worked w/o issue for two years with the same stand and componentry on it.

I think it would be reasonably easy to install additional bracing on each 'X' brace to stiffen it horizontally. have stainless rods with end bolts that could strengthen each cavity of the 'X' brace. it would counter any flex.

I would draw it if I had a way to do it.

 

[rockitman]

my Adona rack is very stiff horizontally......certainly 'stiff enough' as far as I can tell. much stiffer than any other rack I have observed.

my Adona rack legs are 28 inches distance 'exposed' from one x-frame to the other one.

mine has the bottom and top shelves and 2 adjustable in between. I did remove my middle shelf for a few years which required me to disassemble the rack to remove the extra set of adjuster arms.

I cut down the legs due to the height of my tt including the Herzan to keep the platter height at a comfortable working height (the NVS is fairly tall) and so I could reasonably see the platter/arm action from my sitting position. I can't see the platter surface but can tell where the arm is on the platter. I don't like to be blind.

So your rack is actually taller ? As I mentioned...the silver leg (aluminum) portion is 24" on my rack. I remain mystified why I'm having issues with it.

 

[rockitman]

G

I think it would be reasonably easy to install additional bracing on each 'X' brace to stiffen it horizontally. have stainless rods with end bolts that could strengthen each cavity of the 'X' brace. it would counter any flex.

I would draw it if I had a way to do it.

That sounds like a reasonable solution to try short of replacing th rack entirely.

 

[microstrip]

G

That sounds like a reasonable solution to try short of replacing th rack entirely.

Christian,

Large diameter tubes are intrinsically stiff - if your rack flexes horizontally it is surely due to the interface zone between the iron bases and the aluminum rods. I insist you should focus on this area if you want to keep the rack. Did you try contacting the manufacturer reporting the problem?

If you accept bypassing the anti vibration structure you can drill a few holes in the bases inside the cylinders and insert a few straightening long threaded shafts around .4" diameter very firmly secured at the tops with strong nuts to clamp the structure.

 

[rockitman]

Christian,

Large diameter tubes are intrinsically stiff - if your rack flexes horizontally it is surely due to the interface zone between the iron bases and the aluminum rods. I insist you should focus on this area if you want to keep the rack. Did you try contacting the manufacturer reporting the problem?

If you accept bypassing the anti vibration structure you can drill a few holes in the bases inside the cylinders and insert a few straightening long threaded shafts around .4" diameter very firmly secured at the tops with strong nuts to clamp the structure.

I agree. The junction of the aluminum legs and the bottom and top steel X support brace are a poor design from a horizontal rigidity standpoint. I plan to look into a stand like this for the TT and keep the current rack to hold one of the phono stages and maybe I will place my RTR UHA Phase 12 deck on top of that. Here is a pic of the stand I would like to get. It may be a custom job...I need it to have a footprint of 20"x24" and 30" tall to support the TS-140.

 

[MtnHam]

Mike, Christian, and anyone else who cares to comment-

I am considering the Herzan TS-140 to go under my SME20/2 which sits on top of the pictured Billy Bags rack. Is this rack likely to be OK? Am I likely to consider it worth the expense?
Comments, suggestions?
Thanks,
Tom