Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack

[dctom]

thanks

 

[Steve Williams]

FWIW I just spoke to Joe Lavrencik from CMS re his thoughts about placing a Herzan on top of a CMS shelf. Here is what he said .......
" An active system atop a CMS filter would be highly redundant. Also it could actually degrade the functionality by interfering with the energy transfer."

 

[Mike Lavigne]

FWIW I just spoke to Joe Lavrencik from CMS re his thoughts about placing a Herzan on top of a CMS shelf. Here is what he said .......
" An active system atop a CMS filter would be highly redundant. Also it could actually degrade the functionality by interfering with the energy transfer."

that seems right.

to me, your level of CMS is a 'final answer' as is a Herzan. stacked neither then really are optimal. it could work out that the net result is a gain, but that would be simply one of many possibilities.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is great you asked Joe that. But I wonder if the answer would be different the other way around -- placing a CMS amp stand (with CMS filter shelf) on a Herzan. It might still be redundant but this way the techniques should, I think, be additive overall and not deleterious.

 

[JackD201]

I agree with Joe Steve. Reverse it and have an CMS on an active and I think things should be different. As the Herzan rep herself said, a needs analysis is a must. I appreciate her no bull assessment.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, this hobby is crazy enough w'out going to CRAZY levels
The Herzan active is good enough for an electron scanning microscope, yes? And so, good enough for our needs, esp tts, yes? If it's good enough, and in effect more than good enough, then surely mixing the two is just being greedy
Just install the Herzan, and be done
Or the rack, and be done
Just, be done
You don't see any lab owners feeling the need to piggy back/hybridise/combine techs
Or go beyond Herzan

 

[Steve Williams]

Guys, this hobby is crazy enough w'out going to CRAZY levels
The Herzan active is good enough for an electron scanning microscope, yes? And so, good enough for our needs, esp tts, yes? If it's good enough, and in effect more than good enough, then surely mixing the two is just being greedy
Just install the Herzan, and be done
Or the rack, and be done
Just, be done
You don't see any lab owners feeling the need to piggy back/hybridise/combine techs
Or go beyond Herzan

That's been my premise all along.

 

[LL21]

FWIW I just spoke to Joe Lavrencik from CMS re his thoughts about placing a Herzan on top of a CMS shelf. Here is what he said .......
" An active system atop a CMS filter would be highly redundant. Also it could actually degrade the functionality by interfering with the energy transfer."

From Reid.Whitney of Herzan?

Hi Spirit,
...The most common issue we have found when pairing high end audio equipment and active systems is the horizontal and vertical rigidity of support stands not being adequate. The primary way to minimize the effectiveness of an active system is to place it on an unstable support structure, so we advise either placing the system on the floor (which is not always practical), or looking into a support stand that has strong horizontal support points and is made of a rigid material (steel works well in most cases)....

- Reid, Herzan

Does this mean that placing the Herzan on top of the CMS might be ok? ie, minimize the vibration going to the Herzan via its connection to the floor (via the CMS)...and allow the Herzan to take care of airborne/other...maybe internal electronics as well?

 

[murphys33]

I would subscribe to the theory of herzan to take care of airborne and structural transmission from floor and a passive such as Symposium to drain interally induce.vibrations from components. So component on top of Symposium which rests on herzan.
I would try this over the weekend to see if there may be any performance benefits.

 

[spiritofmusic]

33, this is a thought of mine too, but substituting a Speirs Robertson AMB air rolling diaphragm passive for the active Herzan, so:
flr>rigid stand>Speirs>Symposium Quantum Signature>tt
Indeed, Peter of Symposium has recommended this in discussions w me

 

[PeterA]

Guys, this hobby is crazy enough w'out going to CRAZY levels
The Herzan active is good enough for an electron scanning microscope, yes? And so, good enough for our needs, esp tts, yes? If it's good enough, and in effect more than good enough, then surely mixing the two is just being greedy
Just install the Herzan, and be done
Or the rack, and be done
Just, be done
You don't see any lab owners feeling the need to piggy back/hybridise/combine techs
Or go beyond Herzan

This is an interesting response, Spirit. It seems to contradict your own conclusions that you feel passive is the right solution for your application under a turntable. And that the constrained layer of the Stacore is preferred because of the wider frequency range of isolation. But here you now seem to be saying that the Herzan active is the best solution, so just get it and be done. People are suggesting that putting an HRS or similar shelf on top of an active platform COULD be even better than the active unit alone by providing an increased frequency range of isolation (an constrained layer, if you will), yet you don't seem to embrace this possibility. I'm a bit confused by your various posts. Is it just a matter of cost, or are you talking ultimate effectiveness. Could you please clarify what you mean?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, any confusion not intended
Ok, to explain
Some years back the Herzan active isoln bug strikes w Mike L and Christian R reporting stellar results...but at a cost
At the time, I secure a home trial of equivalent active Accurion/Halcyonics i4, and hear overall impvt, but not quite as stellar as I was expecting (something to come back to as I was in the middle of a major tube amps upgrade, and I couldn't afford the NATs as well as the £7k Accurion)
A few years back I get news of Purite Keith who had just installed the passive air rolling diaphragm Spiers Robertson AMB under his GP Monaco 1.5/Triplanar/Dynavector, and according to him it enabled him for the first time to properly benefit from having the tt
Put it this way, he has the most brutal nodes in his room at 37Hz, and 70Hz, and previously they caused the most terrible smearing of information from those grooves and mistracking
W the passive Speirs under the GP the whole analog side of things just clarified and solidified that even the most torturous nodes on my bass heavy lps that I demoed there did not disrupt things
A truly slam dunk positive outcome and a massive advert for the passive Speirs
On making contact w the chief designer, assuming the 3x pricier active Speirs would take this advantage on, I was surprised to hear from him that wasn't the case, and the passive I heard was the unit to order
In the meantime I continued upgrading the rest of my system and got to a synergy 18 months ago that for the first time struck me as a stepping off point from more and more expensive component spending
And then I put my system away for a year, moved, threw $90k in creating my dedicated space, w full acoustics and leading edge power install, and as you know I just love what I've achieved, now w no need to change gear at all
But w some reservations on analog presentation (although impvg on a daily basis), my thoughts return to the subject of isoln
So, I'm at a point where I'm reinvestigating the last major spend on my rig, tt isoln, because I was so impressed w how the Speirs passive dealt w such a brutal room at Keith's, at such a modest outlay
This is where I had been planning my spend
I mean, at £2k, it's a quarter the price of the active Herzan, and a third the price of the active Speirs, and on the basis of a stellar demo is a no brainer
But the Stacore Advanced has homed into view, and is an interesting variation on the passive Speirs, w greater emphasis on optimising isoln w additional mass and constrained layer tech, plus additional lateral isoln in a concept that I like ie similar to my Symposium Rollerblocks, albeit at a price exactly midway btwn passive Speirs and active Speirs
I really am at a point where my upgrade funds are somewhere between zero and, ahem nothing LOL, I'm really going to struggle to release funds for the active Herzan and I already have a cost effective passive shown to be extremely positive
The Stacore just intrigues me, I like it's hybrid multiple tech/materials approach, and it's price point is the v max I can afford, esp since I need to buy an additional single tier inert support to allow these platforms to do their thing
Hope that's explained my perspective

My thoughts to Ron about sticking w Herzan and not trying to combine w racks us that he has already settled in his own mind the Herzan is the way to go
And w this mindset it seems just extravagant to add even more
Herzan surely is the end point
Maybe an exception if you want to "save" money by actively isolating a whole rack of gear by putting an HRS on a Herzan, but surely not trying to "improve upon" the Herzan by spending even more cash
My suggestion on combining Symposium and Speirs is prob similarly unnecessary, was just thinking aloud

 

[Ron Resnick]

The only thing I'm sure of, Marc, is that I want a Herzan under the control/amplification box of the tube-festooned Io.

 

[Stacore]

This is exactly what 'active' isolation stands are designed to combat and I suspect (contrary to other advice)....that the Herzan will solve this problem...
The only problem is arranging an audition.
With Herzan, they offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so if it doesn't work out for you...you are only up for transportation costs.
I'm in Australia and that's the same risk I undertook :b

Henry, to make your point more precise, not only active stands but any with the right sub-sonic isolation capabilities too

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, you do know power supplies are likely to benefit from active isolation
So, all you have to say to Whitney is "make that THREE Herzans, my good woman", and she will duly follow yr wishes

 

[Stacore]

Peter, any confusion not intended
Ok, to explain
Some years back the Herzan active isoln bug strikes w Mike L and Christian R reporting stellar results...but at a cost
At the time, I secure a home trial of equivalent active Accurion/Halcyonics i4, and hear overall impvt, but not quite as stellar as I was expecting (something to come back to as I was in the middle of a major tube amps upgrade, and I couldn't afford the NATs as well as the £7k Accurion)
A few years back I get news of Purite Keith who had just installed the passive air rolling diaphragm Spiers Robertson AMB under his GP Monaco 1.5/Triplanar/Dynavector, and according to him it enabled him for the first time to properly benefit from having the tt
Put it this way, he has the most brutal nodes in his room at 37Hz, and 70Hz, and previously they caused the most terrible smearing of information from those grooves and mistracking
W the passive Speirs under the GP the whole analog side of things just clarified and solidified that even the most torturous nodes on my bass heavy lps that I demoed there did not disrupt things
A truly slam dunk positive outcome and a massive advert for the passive Speirs
On making contact w the chief designer, assuming the 3x pricier active Speirs would take this advantage on, I was surprised to hear from him that wasn't the case, and the passive I heard was the unit to order
In the meantime I continued upgrading the rest of my system and got to a synergy 18 months ago that for the first time struck me as a stepping off point from more and more expensive component spending
And then I put my system away for a year, moved, threw $90k in creating my dedicated space, w full acoustics and leading edge power install, and as you know I just love what I've achieved, now w no need to change gear at all
But w some reservations on analog presentation (although impvg on a daily basis), my thoughts return to the subject of isoln
So, I'm at a point where I'm reinvestigating the last major spend on my rig, tt isoln, because I was so impressed w how the Speirs passive dealt w such a brutal room at Keith's, at such a modest outlay
This is where I had been planning my spend
....

Marc, I have some bad news for you: your endeavour to purely intellectually figure out the best isolation for your tt is doomed to fail with a very high probability
Please read my words not as a criticism of the vast research on platforms you are undertaking, where we are proud to be in your scope. But rather as a humble advice from a fellow audiophile who has been in similar situations many times, for long times, and speaks of own bitter experience of lost time and energy.
If I may advise something would be to make some move. And start gaining experience in your own setup. Take a plywood, kid bikes tire and assemble a dirty cheap pneumatic support under your tt. This will give you some hint on what pneumatics can/cannot do for your system. Then, in PM you mentioned Speir is both in London and offers free demos. Run for it! Take both passive of your choice and the active platform, give them a critical listen and comeback here with your findings. It would be extremely interesting to read your critical comparison of both active and passive from the same manufacturer in the same setup and on a same day (to minimize the influence of bad electricity days). I've never seen any comparison like that, so you could really provide a high value input into the common audio knowledge pool.
Do remember to write down your findings as memories fade away quickly!
Finally, you have my offer of free shipping plus 2 weeks to return no Qs asked. You risk some 150-200GBP (my very rough estimate) on shipping back, but you gain something in my view well worth the risk - an experience of your system
Just my 2c All the best luck to you!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Jarek, I'll bear that in mind
The reason for my narrative was to provide my experience and clue PeterA as to reason for my comments
My trials have really just been individual chances to hear passive and active once each, so yes I can't really draw any decisive conclusions, other than passive has the scope to be stellar
But my room is a different room
Can I ask if the Stacore Advanced provides uniform isoln right to the very boundaries of the platform, or does one need to place the gear to be isolated at least a few centimetres in from the outside?
I ask this because the total width of my tt and motor is within one centimetre side to side the same width as yr platform
Now, my top tier on Symposium rack is the same width as the Stacore, so the dims are something I'm used to, but unsure if the Stacore isoln works uniformly across the full 100% of it's width and depth

 

[Stacore]

Marc, exactly: your room is a different room, your system is a different system.
I apologize for stating an obvious tautology but if you want to listen to your system,
you have to listen to your system So is that Spier platforms shoot out possible?
I'd be very interested to learn your observations!

We do isolate equally well on the whole surface, no problem.
Cheers,

 

[spiritofmusic]

A three way shootout would be possible
Not easy to achieve, since both the Speirs would have to be available at the time you could ship the Stacore Advanced over
Or it would be a two-leg trial, Speirs passive v active on one day, Stacore at a later date
I've got a pretty reasonable aural memory on demos

 

[Stacore]

Great! I meant shootout between Spiers but if you could include us that is double great !
We have Advanced on hands, ready to ship whenever you are ready.
Thank you!