Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack

[Halcro]

well.....no. not how it works. science uses high mass, and then.....active isolation, for it's most precise work with an electron microscope. if that was not how it worked why would they use it? go to a laboratory, it will be in a basement and will use a heavy table like what you use. and the electron microscope will be sitting on the heavy table.....a top an active device.

20 years ago it was using an air device with active leveling, now it's piezo-electric sensors and actuators.

high mass simply changes the resonant frequency but does not eliminate resonance. but it does allow the active device to operate optimally. your intuition does not account for the active device being able to stop and start. so it's not creating a character, only reacting precisely to ground resonance (your location is not immune to ground resonance).....adding focus and texture, removing smear and blur.

the active device is not settling and overshooting like a passive device. it's 500x stiffer than passive. and just so you know, an active device improves bass performance. adding a significant degree of bass texture. and until you hear what it does you won't know what you are missing.

your idea that somehow the moving parts of a turntable cause some sort of problem does not jive with how tt's work on these devices. and your tt's have less self resonance than others in any case.

if you take one of your big heavy tables, and add active isolation, there will be a benefit. do you need this benefit? different question. maybe it's not important. but there would be some level of benefit. you don't have 750 pound bass towers 6 feet from your turntables with potentially -3db at 7hz capability.

having heard your system at warp 9 I would wholeheartedly agree that any benefit would be marginal......but I have no doubt there would be some. likely your system has minimal feedback, not zero, but minimal considering the distance from your (sub)woofers.

This is correct.
High mass (unless totally connected to bedrock) is unable to resist frequencies of 1-5Hz of sufficient amplitude .
Otherwise the high-mass reinforced concrete floors and columns of high-rise buildings would be immune to structure-borne vibration.
They are not.....and it's not the frequencies above 20 Hz that are responsible.
Of course you may not be aware of this low-frequency vibration in your structure until you amplify it by increasing the volume....?

That's not to say all rooms and installations are the same with respect to structure-borne feedback. There are obviously some that are better than others and some that are close to ideal.
So active isolation solutions may not reap equal benefits in all situations.....

 

[Halcro]

Guys, this is all becoming my big final area of investigation in audio
In my move to my new bespoke room, everything except one critical thing has improved thru the roof
But that's on digital only
On analog, I'm struggling to fully dial in my sound
Everything is there, but a kind of veil and softened impact, not so much in the low end, but more upper mids and treble
The critical difference for my tt is that I've gone from a 27x22 non floating wood on solid concrete floor in my previous London apartment, to my current 50x18 suspended wooden floor, new timber floor over existing Victorian joists roof space floor, and there is the inevitable springiness in it that one can't easily eliminate in such a massive span
I am running a Symposium Isis 3 tier rack which seems to be just fine on my digital, but I'm surmising now, w XV-1's answer to my PM, that it may be proving a liability on my tt
And now my thoughts have changed from beefing up the top tier where my tt is with a Symposium Quantum Signature uber constrained layer platform, to going the lab grade isolation direction, and providing an inert table just for my tt and using one of these devices, Herzan, Accurion or UK based Spiers And Robertson (from now on SR for this thread)
The q I want to ask is, my issues are more to do w transparency, dynamic snap and lack of treble incisiveness and sparkle, does active isolation help w all these?
I always got the impression it was more noticeable at the low end ie bass articulation and removing low mids/upper bass "sludge"

The greatest effects with the Herzan in my system, is in the midrange and high-frequencies.
It's the low-frequency structure-borne feedback which smears and contaminates the molecular-scaled higher frequencies.
I was unprepared for this result but it now makes sense....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Herzan's not a cure for bouncy floors! It's a very sophisticated apparatus you should read their literature to understand what it's designed to do.

david

+1.

a bouncy floor will burn out a Herzan from continual correction (ask Ki Choi about that). you either need to engineer some sort of structure to shore up the floor and remove that bounce, or approach the problem differently with mass loading to slow down the moment of the bounce with a sandbox or some such device which might improve it but is not predictable. or do a wall mount or ceiling hang to avoid the floor altogether.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't want to give the impression that my floor is terrible, far from it
It's a new timber floor fixed to an existing super strong 1861 Victorian chapel existing floor/joists
I can walk reasonably heavily around the tt, and no skipping, thanks in big part to my Rollerblock Module based Symposium Acoustics Isis rack
So, we're not talking about an unstable or overly flexy flr
But, at 18x50, it's a massive span, and so flex is going to exist to a point, and is a massive change from my previous uber inert 22x27 concrete flr
I am not minded to pull things up again, and do more deep construction
Tbh, after 12 months' comprehensive restoration of this property involving a small fortune on the loft/audio room, I'm totally burnt out by the stress, and just want interesting after mkt solutions for tt isoln
So, reinforcing the flr is not going to happen, passive or active platforms on inert racks I'm open to, as I am to maxxing out my current rack w uber constrained layer Symposium Quantum Signature platform on existing rack

 

[ddk]

!

I run a rim drive high torque tt w air bearing linear tracking arm
Currently on a flexing suspended timber floor in an attic space 6m X 15m overall span

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, why the exclamation?

 

[PeterA]

This is correct.
High mass (unless totally connected to bedrock) is unable to resist frequencies of 1-5Hz of sufficient amplitude .
Otherwise the high-mass reinforced concrete floors and columns of high-rise buildings would be immune to structure-borne vibration.
They are not.....and it's not the frequencies above 20 Hz that are responsible.
Of course you may not be aware of this low-frequency vibration in your structure until you amplify it by increasing the volume....?

That's not to say all rooms and installations are the same with respect to structure-borne feedback. There are obviously some that are better than others and some that are close to ideal.
So active isolation solutions may not reap equal benefits in all situations.....

Halcro, don't suspended long span concrete floors in highrises act like webs and vibrate/resonate just like suspended wood floors do, though perhaps at different frequencies. Aren't they are under tensile stresses and resonate just cantilevered shelves and beams? I thick concrete floor on earth is compressive but must transmit low frequency earth borne vibrations very effectively.

 

[PeterA]

+1.

a bouncy floor will burn out a Herzan from continual correction (ask Ki Choi about that). you either need to engineer some sort of structure to shore up the floor and remove that bounce, or approach the problem differently with mass loading to slow down the moment of the bounce with a sandbox or some such device which might improve it but is not predictable. or do a wall mount or ceiling hang to avoid the floor altogether.

Yes. I approached my bouncy floor in a different way though. I placed two steel lolli columns directly under each speaker and my component rack. This eliminated floor bounce but I still need isolation because earth borne vibrations (and passing trucks, etc.) travel through the bedrock under my ancient basement and then through the columns and floor boards into my rack. These are at a very low frequency. Interestingly, my turntable seems also immune from the spinning washing machine, which does excite the floors in our 200+ year old house.

 

[ddk]

Dave, why the exclamation?

No reason, just amused reminds me of some of my previous moves. Is it bad or is it good?

david

 

[bonzo75]

No reason, just amused reminds me of some of my previous moves. Is it bad or is it good?

david

Groundhog day?

 

[dctom]

I don't want to give the impression that my floor is terrible, far from it
It's a new timber floor fixed to an existing super strong 1861 Victorian chapel existing floor/joists
I can walk reasonably heavily around the tt, and no skipping, thanks in big part to my Rollerblock Module based Symposium Acoustics Isis rack
So, we're not talking about an unstable or overly flexy flr
But, at 18x50, it's a massive span, and so flex is going to exist to a point, and is a massive change from my previous uber inert 22x27 concrete flr
I am not minded to pull things up again, and do more deep construction
Tbh, after 12 months' comprehensive restoration of this property involving a small fortune on the loft/audio room, I'm totally burnt out by the stress, and just want interesting after mkt solutions for tt isoln
So, reinforcing the flr is not going to happen, passive or active platforms on inert racks I'm open to, as I am to maxxing out my current rack w uber constrained layer Symposium Quantum Signature platform on existing rack

I put a couple of 10" reinforcing beams at right angles to the joists. Tightened up the floor considerably, your floor is bigger though, guess it would need 3 or 4.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, quite a bit of strengthening was done during the loft conversion, I think I'm ok there
It's just that 18x50 is hard to eradicate all flex from
Passive isolation is now my Holy Grail to tease the last 10% from my analog
The devil is in those 10% details

 

[PeterA]

Dave, quite a bit of strengthening was done during the loft conversion, I think I'm ok there
It's just that 18x50 is hard to eradicate all flex from
Passive isolation is now my Holy Grail to tease the last 10% from my analog
The devil is in those 10% details

The angels are in that last 10%.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, you're obv a "glass half full" person LOL

 

[Halcro]

Halcro, don't suspended long span concrete floors in highrises act like webs and vibrate/resonate just like suspended wood floors do, though perhaps at different frequencies. Aren't they are under tensile stresses and resonate just cantilevered shelves and beams? I thick concrete floor on earth is compressive but must transmit low frequency earth borne vibrations very effectively.

Yes Peter, ANY suspended structure will be in various degrees of stress, both tensile and compressive and thus will be emitting very low frequencies.
The point I was attempting to make....is that 'high mass' is NOT an antidote to structure-borne feedback....in fact, if the amplitude of the low-frequency vibrations are high enough....the higher masses will crumble, like masonry structures do under earthquakes. Lightweight timber and steel will often survive if their joints are flexible.
Unless one is in a seismic zone or has underground railway lines...there is little evidence I have seen to indicate 'earth-borne' vibrations exist....despite the imaginations of some audiophiles...

 

[Halcro]

I don't want to give the impression that my floor is terrible, far from it
It's a new timber floor fixed to an existing super strong 1861 Victorian chapel existing floor/joists
I can walk reasonably heavily around the tt, and no skipping, thanks in big part to my Rollerblock Module based Symposium Acoustics Isis rack
So, we're not talking about an unstable or overly flexy flr
But, at 18x50, it's a massive span, and so flex is going to exist to a point, and is a massive change from my previous uber inert 22x27 concrete flr
I am not minded to pull things up again, and do more deep construction
Tbh, after 12 months' comprehensive restoration of this property involving a small fortune on the loft/audio room, I'm totally burnt out by the stress, and just want interesting after mkt solutions for tt isoln
So, reinforcing the flr is not going to happen, passive or active platforms on inert racks I'm open to, as I am to maxxing out my current rack w uber constrained layer Symposium Quantum Signature platform on existing rack

Floors are not usually designed to be "bouncy".....
From all your descriptions....I suspect your floor is acting like a typically suspended wood floor with perhaps larger than usual spans?
As such, it is just normally saturated with structure-induced subsonic vibrations which are muddying and interfering with the mids and high-frequencies during vinyl playback
To test this.....place your cartridge onto a stationary record and gradually turn up the volume. If at some point, feedback is induced which keeps increasing in volume on its own.....it is fairly certain that the structure-borne feedback in your floor is making its way into your turntable platter.
This is exactly what 'active' isolation stands are designed to combat and I suspect (contrary to other advice)....that the Herzan will solve this problem...
The only problem is arranging an audition.
With Herzan, they offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so if it doesn't work out for you...you are only up for transportation costs.
I'm in Australia and that's the same risk I undertook :b

 

[dctom]

That is a big room Marc.

 

[spiritofmusic]

You're telling me, Dave
It's actually a pretty sturdy affair for 900 sq ft
Victorian engineers and builders put their backs into things
And we did some additional reinforcement
But undoubtedly passive isolation should be a step up

 

[dctom]

Floors are not usually designed to be "bouncy".....
From all your descriptions....I suspect your floor is acting like a typically suspended wood floor with perhaps larger than usual spans?
As such, it is just normally saturated with structure-induced subsonic vibrations which are muddying and interfering with the mids and high-frequencies during vinyl playback
To test this.....place your cartridge onto a stationary record and gradually turn up the volume. If at some point, feedback is induced which keeps increasing in volume on its own.....it is fairly certain that the structure-borne feedback in your floor is making its way into your turntable platter.
This is exactly what 'active' isolation stands are designed to combat and I suspect (contrary to other advice)....that the Herzan will solve this problem...
The only problem is arranging an audition.
With Herzan, they offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so if it doesn't work out for you...you are only up for transportation costs.
I'm in Australia and that's the same risk I undertook :b

My TT did suffer from some feedback as you describe, in my previous house, I solved it with a diy solution I posted here ....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ASSIVE-more-cost-effective-isolation-solution

post No 10

The room I have now has a reinforced floor, however I use the same support to be on the safe side.

 

[Halcro]

My TT did suffer from some feedback as you describe, in my previous house, I solved it with a diy solution I posted here ....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ASSIVE-more-cost-effective-isolation-solution

post No 10

The room I have now has a reinforced floor, however I use the same support to be on the safe side.

Nice solution...