Frugal Power

[opus111]

Gary it seems to me that you think placebo effect isn't real. It most certainly is real the difficulty comes from the fact that we never know when its operating because it is totally real.

And no, placebo effect isn't a trick our mind plays on us either.

 

[NorthStar]

There's no placebo effect. Everything we hear is completely, totally, absolutely REAL.

Neither expectations nor repeated listenings can play tricks on our minds.

We're humans. We're way too advanced for that!

---- Really! ...Gary must be quite advanced then.

 

[opus111]

Placebo effect has nothing at all to do with 'being advanced' (or not).

 

[NorthStar]

-- Hey John, I did ask the question over at AA, regarding if you should plug or not your Mc amp into your Monster Power Centre, or directly to the wall.

The first (smart) answer was from Mike, a very nice and brilliant guy; and he said to try directly into the wall first, and for about a week, so you can get familiar with the sound.
And then plug it into the Power Centre and see if you can hear a difference after few days. ...Pretty much what Lloyd just said here earlier.

 

[NorthStar]

Placebo effect has nothing at all to do with 'being advanced' (or not).

---- Richard, what should I say?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

-- Hey John, I did ask the question over at AA, regarding if you should plug or not your Mc amp into your Monster Power Centre, or directly to the wall.

The first (smart) answer was from Mike, a very nice and brilliant guy; and he said to try directly into the wall first, and for about a week, so you can get familiar with the sound.
And then plug it into the Power Centre and see if you can hear a difference after few days. ...Pretty much what Lloyd just said here earlier.

Thanks Bob?! I'll try that!

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary, from you initial post in this thread:

The reason hospital outlets are mounted with the earth/ground prong on top is, as I was told about 25 years ago, a safety factor. In the unlikely event that a piece of metallic hardware were to fall off the wall and wedge itself between the the plug and outlet receptacle with the - and + prongs on top it could cause a short circuit, but if the earth/ground is on top, there would be no danger of a short circuit or breaker blowing.

REALLY??? it sounds better with the earth/ground prong on top???????? Bass is more "powerful and faster", midrange has more "bloom", treble has more "air"?????????

Thanks, Gary. I later found out when I accidentally stepped on a power cord that the ground pin on the top prevented the powercord from being pulled out of the wall. I guess safer in a hospital - you couldn't accidentally unplug the respirator by stepping on the power cord.

I didn't believe that the upside down sounded better initially. I had accidentally installed one set of plugs on one side of the room one way up, and the other side of the room the other way up..... and plugging the amplifier in on one side of the room sounded different from the other side of the room. Turning the plug around helped, but ground pin up sounded best. Who knows why?

 

[garylkoh]

The placebo effect is real. There's lots of medical evidence even.

 

[DACMan]

Absolutely.

In one test sugar pills were found to work 40% as well as Morphine against post surgical severe pain.
Placebo effect is VERY real (although it sometimes goes by other names, like "expectation bias").

The only way to be sure about anything subtle is by a real double-blind test.

On the one hand, turning your outlets upside down at least doesn't cost anything, and causes no harm
(as long as you're careful and don't mess up the wires), so there isn't a lot of incentive to test and verify whether it's real or not.
But, on the other hand, I always like to verify claims that seem contrary to science very thoroughly to avoid
"promoting superstition and magical thinking".
(In other words, using a placebo to help someone with pain from an injury is indeed helpful, BUT it does encourage them
to believe that a different placebo might cure them of, maybe, an infection. In that case, if they take the placebo
instead of a real antibiotic, since bacteria don't respond to placebos especially well, the results could be very bad.)

The placebo effect is real. There's lots of medical evidence even.

 

[garylkoh]

Absolutely.

In one test sugar pills were found to work 40% as well as Morphine against post surgical severe pain.
Placebo effect is VERY real (although it sometimes goes by other names, like "expectation bias").

The only way to be sure about anything subtle is by a real double-blind test.

On the one hand, turning your outlets upside down at least doesn't cost anything, and causes no harm
(as long as you're careful and don't mess up the wires), so there isn't a lot of incentive to test and verify whether it's real or not.
But, on the other hand, I always like to verify claims that seem contrary to science very thoroughly to avoid
"promoting superstition and magical thinking".
(In other words, using a placebo to help someone with pain from an injury is indeed helpful, BUT it does encourage them
to believe that a different placebo might cure them of, maybe, an infection. In that case, if they take the placebo
instead of a real antibiotic, since bacteria don't respond to placebos especially well, the results could be very bad.)

True - placebo effects do not affect bacteria, and they generally work only if the brain is often the biggest of the equation. Like with pain, like with music. Medical tests with placebos are always double blind. Neither the patient nor the person administrating the medicine know which is the sugar pill. Just as double blind testing of placebo pain killers don't result in 100% effectiveness of the placebo, double blind testing in hifi cannot result in 100% effectiveness of tweaks. Once the patient knows that it is a placebo trial, the results go out the window. Same with double blind audio testing. Knowledge changes the results.

 

[Gregadd]

In one test sugar pills were found to work 40% as well as Morphine against post surgical severe pain.

I do not know about morphine. There is no way a sugar pill can imitate an intravenous heroine injection.

 

[opus111]

(In other words, using a placebo to help someone with pain from an injury is indeed helpful, BUT it does encourage them
to believe that a different placebo might cure them of, maybe, an infection. In that case, if they take the placebo
instead of a real antibiotic, since bacteria don't respond to placebos especially well, the results could be very bad.)

There's a fallacy in your thinking here - the bacteria are being dealt with by the immune system. Its the immune system that responds to placebo, not the bacteria.

 

[GaryProtein]

I'm sorry for all the confusion guys.

I should have used some "sarcastic" emoticon when I said the placebo effect isn't real.

The Placebo Effect IS VERY REAL and that's why I like blind testing.

Now, it is plain to see that we humans aren't all that advanced, we have lots of foibles.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The Placebo Effect IS VERY REAL and that's why I like blind testing.

OK, you like them. But what percentage of your buying decisions was taken with proper blind tests? (I am not sure if should add any emoticon to this post )

 

[opus111]

Making buying decisions based on blind tests is daft unless you conceal from yourself what equipment you listen to at all times in your listening room. That because there's another effect complementary to placebo called nocebo and you can't be sure whether either one of them is operating at any particular time

 

[NorthStar]

I'm sorry for all the confusion guys.

I should have used some "sarcastic" emoticon when I said the placebo effect isn't real.

The Placebo Effect IS VERY REAL and that's why I like blind testing.

Now, it is plain to see that we humans aren't all that advanced, we have lots of foibles.

---- Gary, I read you 100% clear the first time. ...Don't need no emoticons with me.
With the other members, ...I think they read you right also. ...Extrapolation, that's all, I think.

 

[NorthStar]

-- John,

1. http://www.audioaficionado.org/407632-post2.html

2. http://www.audioaficionado.org/407654-post5.html

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

-- John,

1. http://www.audioaficionado.org/407632-post2.html

2. http://www.audioaficionado.org/407654-post5.html

Thank you so much for those links Bob!

It seems like I don't need to worry about it and will thereby test out both methods. I currently have my IA plugged directly into the wall socket, so I'll try that first for a week or two (depending on how much listening time I can get in).

Thanks again!

 

[NorthStar]

-- No sweat John, it's my pleasure.

* I could have gone in my basement for those Widescreen Review mags with elaborate Series of reviews on all type of power conditioners, surge protectors (from $100 to $5,000), and where all the Monster models were reviewed; but my memory is good enough and that's why I said before that for a stereo amp with 80 watts a side you should be fine no problem at all. It shouldn't restrict the actual current used.

As for it's effect on sound quality, I agree with both Mike and Dan; trust your own ears. :b
And the security to know that your gear is protected (like the earlier example you gave), plays a role also.

 

[NorthStar]

Power Line Conditioners ::

For John, and all other members.

I went to get my mags (Widescreen Review), and this ::

Power Line Conditioners - Points

* There are a few things you should remember about PLCs in order to get the most out of them.
* PLCs sound their worst sitting on the floor or on a carpet. Put them up on a sturdy shelf or platform at a minimum.
* You can further extract a worthwhile amount of sound (and video) quality by experimenting with different feet under the PLC. {I use rubber feet myself.}
* Objects placed on or under the PLC will also alter the sound... some for the better, some for the worse. These are mechanical resonance interactions and are not predictable from system to system. A sand bag on top of a PLC (just an example) may sound good in one system and worse in another. Likewise, isolating the PLC from the shelf or floor with commercial products or DIY projects can offer performance improvements in some systems.
* The worst PLC sound is obtained by setting the PLC on the floor and forgetting about it. The best PLC sound is obtained by treating the PLC like a high quality audio (or video) product.
* What you do with the power cords to and from the PLC will also affect the sound (and image) quality enough to be worth experimenting with. When gains are possible, the largest gains seem to come from raising the cords off the floor, however each object you use as power cords "lifters" will sound different. Wood blocks tend to sound better than plastic objects. {I use wood and pipe insulation tubing myself.}
Metal objects can be good or bad sounding. Some systems may sound best using a variety of materials rather than a single material at each location.

___________________

All my Audio/Video mags that I kept and since the sixties are a good valuable source of 'replunging' information. And Widescreen Review has some phenomenal articles written by some great pro audio writers and all, over the years. ...No wonder that Amir is writing for them on occasion. :b

Your particular unit John wasn't part of that Series, because it is newer.
But there was one which was similar, and I already said to you that your amp you're good to go.
I am sure that your HDP2400 has some dedicated outlets for an amp and an amp/receiver.
Just use one of them so you don't run out of dynamics (current).
You would be good with an 100 watts per channel dedicated stereo power amp, or a stereo receiver (a good true/honest one).

Hope this helps.