EVS modified Gustard X20/Gustard X20 thread

[YashN]

Totally agree with the subject being a great opportunity for learning electronics (electrical engineering as well).

REW is awesome for room diagnosis.

For treatment, I recommend using acoustic/organic room treatment rather than heading straight to the DSP/EQ/convolution route. This makes for the most natural sound possible, especially with DSD.

This said, if after organic acoustic treatment you still find annoying peaks and troughs, then the electronic treatment might be the only remaining recourse.

For DSD, HQ Player also can process it in the SDM domain, so prefer that rather than intermediate conversions and treatment in the PCM domain. An alternative with DSD could be processing in the analogue domain. For analogue, I would prefer equipment with tubes.

 

[Quadman]

Simon, Great write up. I had forgot about your audiophonics card experiment and after your comments will focus on the PCIe slot as I originally intended. I still don't have the DSD512 board yet, but at 2" x 2" I was looking at the gustard and fear it may be a a touch to big to mount on the divider board wall as the IDC pins will probably not clear the PCIe port; so up in the air, like yours it will probably be. If lucky I can fit it above the PCIe with the usb port accessible from the back with a larger cutout hole. If that won't work I'll remove the balanced input, like you and run the usb cable thru that and plug into the card that way. Maybe some aggressive double sided foam tape would hold the nylon towers in place (and provide a touch of damping) so the usb can be removed without dragging the board around.

While I was typing the card arrived, and whoo hoo the header is not soldered in place so I may be able to mount to divider wall and solder the wires directly to holes on board!! We'll see.

That software looks interesting and I will have to check it out to see it's full capabilities. I currently use Audiomatica's Clio system to take in room responses and adjust the bass eq.

 

[SimonBromleyUK]

Hi Quadman.

Great to hear you got your DIYinHK board all safe and sound.

Yeah, you want that card reasonably secure, the pin connections won't like
being moved round too much. Though they will probably like a gentle re-insertion
every 3 months or so, as most pressure based connections do.

Good luck ... let me know if you run into any issues. I want to hear that report
on the differences between DSD 256 & 512 !!

Anyway, I'm currently stuck in a very dull hotel room, and was just thinking about that
coax linking the two X20 boards. One of the questions that struck me, was what is it actually
transmitting ?
Looking at the ess9018 spec sheet, it has the usual I2S inputs of BCLK, MCLK, LRCK & DATA (8 channels)
With all the clocks and processing stuff etc being on the digital board, I kind of very vaguely thought
that somehow all the important stuff? was being mixed into a special stream by that main FPGA,
then sent over to the smaller FPGA on the output board through this imposing connection,
before being reconstituted into the relevant streams prior to being sent to the DAC chips?

Now, after actually thinking about it, I realise of course that it's simply the system master clock.
With the actual I2S channels being fed by the LVDS chips and lines that go between the boards on
that exposed white ribbon cable.
This would then be similar-ish to how the LKS DAC sends it's I2S information round it's rather large PCB.
The LKS however, places it's master clock very close to the ESS chips, just about where the coax terminates
on the X20.

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense to me.

However, my digital knowledge is pretty ropey (as you can tell from the misapprehension stated
above) and I'm really just picking this stuff up as I go along.

I'm away at the moment, but will check all this out when I get back. It does mean
that what I foolishly thought was basically just a ribbon containing system control stuff.
Is actually the main I2S data lines. So, be careful with it, and don't kink it etc when
handling. It also looks rather exposed to me now, and I may try a bit of sheilding to see
if that improves the sound.
It also means that even if you go directly into the PCIe slot, the signal still ends up
going through an LVDS network (just like the HDMI input), and gets a double dose if you
actually use the HDMI port. Not terrible by any means, and a pretty common thing to do, but
one of the many compromises that manufacturers have to make when designing this type
of product. I found going from HDMI to using the PCIe slot a step up in quality, which shows
the effect using these circuits can have.

I'm now assuming that the smaller FPGA chip on the output side simply divides the relevant
signals between left and right DAC chips, rather than anything fancy. The main large FPGA on
the digital board handling input selection and any re-clocking stuff.
It's a real pity there are no standard I2S pins on the output board. However, even by going
the LVDS route (like the Audiophonics card) there is the intriguing possibility of maybe adding
a high quality clock signal direct into the coax socket (I've already seen this done, and
wondered about it, on a Chinese site) and inputing an I2S LVDS signal direct into the
output board from something like the WaveIO. Completely bypassing the Gustards digital
section. No need for any input selection of course, the only thing that may cause trouble
might be lack of volume control, but going Rics modified output route, you wouldn't need it
anyway, and I only really use it to tame the X20's ridiculously high output.

Intriguing stuff to ponder, and probably all wishful thinking on my part. Lol ...

I'm going to have to read up about clocks now ... I've regularly seen users swap out their
clocks on other DAC's for various different brands. The LKS even has dedicated input pins
right by the standard clock for an external 100mhz clock. So, this isn't just another of
my crazy ideas. I'm not sure that DSD is even clocked in the same way as PCM. And, since
the conversion clocks on the WaveIO are at least as good as the ones in the Gustard, what
do I need the re-clocking that the FPGA is possibly doing for?
Lots of questions, but no answers as yet. However, the spectre of future experimentation
has just reared it's ugly head ...

Regards

Simon

 

[Quadman]

Here's something interesting, My friend Wally received his X20u thursday last week (only 6 days from order date) he was in a hurry to listen, but he is not the most computer literate so I told him since you have a macbook connect the Gustard to that, it does not need a driver. Then take your time and load the driver onto your win 10 machine. He listened for 2 days, I wasn't hearing much from him. Finally on Sunday I got an email from him, he had finally got the driver set up in windows and connected the Gustard to his win 10 computer (after using the macbook, osx 10.8 for 2 days) he said wow, what a difference. He went on to say that after a few hours listening to the Gustard thru his mac he was thinking of selling it because it sounded so bad, he actually said "John - I was devastated - the sound during first 2 days - was like 1/3 way from CD to AM station". Now with windows 10 he is very impressed with the Gustard. He sent an email off to Forexman the seller on ebay and got this reply from him:
I sent question to Gustard seller - " is Macbook with OS 10.8 giving good sound performance ? "

They responded - only driver included on mini CD loaded to windows-10 is giving best sound performance

even latest Macbooks are inferior to W-10


This is interesting any macbook (pro, air) users out there noticing the Gustard not sounding very good with osx?

 

[Quadman]

Simon, I suspect you are right that the ribbon cable carries most of the digital information from the FPGA chip, the coax cable does have some traces coming off the FPGA going to it and I know when I soldered in the first custom coax from Ric I had some very small lettering scroll in the lower right side of the led display, the only word I could make out was error and the signal would not lock at all, no sound. Turned out the cable had shorted shield to the signal wire. I made some modifications to the cable and re-soldered in place and all was good and music played and unit locked on signal (DSD128). So does it carry L & R signals or just the clock information or both. I certainly do not have the EE background to know or even speculate how they route the information from chip to chip. Your theory makes sense to me.

When I initially inquired about the DIYinHK DSD512 board I asked about the pin assignment on their I2S header and my intention to try to use it thru the HDMI (I2S) port of the gustard, here was their reply to me:
Thank You for interesting in our product,

The pin out is the same as our 384k xmos pcb.
The USB 5V is not used on our 768k PCB.

As I google Gustard X20, it uses unusual Differential i2s input,
you will need to build a normal to Differential i2s convertor.
but the DAC will convert the Differential i2s back to normal i2s before going to the ES9018 DAC chip. It can add jitter and noise to the signal.


So they said I need a LVDS board custom configured for the Gustard, but that the Gustard would reconvert that (the internal LVDS) and that process adds jitter, which probably accounts for the sonic differences you heard going from your LVDS to the HDMI port opposed to direct to the PCIe slot. 2 LVDS in chain vs. 1 in chain.

I looked a bit at fitment last night for my DSD512 card, I don't think I can mount it to the divider wall as there is not enough clearance between the wall, the digital board and a few SMC mounted components. Therefore I probably have to follow something like your example. Did you remove the case from your wyred 4 sound reclocker to better fit inside the Gustard? Since you can solder directly to the WAVE I/O board USB header I assume you made a custom loom to perform that function of connecting the two units? I use a Uptone regen and was thinking about removing the case and putting it inside the gustard and building a very short USB cable to connect to the DSD512 card, possibly even removing the USB B connector on the DSD card and solder direct to the DSD card. Leaving the regen outside and connecting to a not very well held down DSD card will probably present some challenges, so the internal route is making some sense to me. Then all external PSU's (regen and 2x3.3Vdc) can sit outside the gustard and route through and openings in the case. Once I get my PSU board I can start the surgery.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Putting the DIYinHK board inside makes a lot of sense......but I am not sure about the regen. Will the regen always be better? Now we have the Sonore Microrender that uses Ethernet and is getting rave reviews. This could be connected to the usb connector on the DIY board with a small usb/usb adapter. Same with the new upcoming PS Audio solution they say sounds better than Audioquest Jitterbug/Regen combo. This new two box system will have CAT 5 in between both boxes again completely isolating the computer. Again, the second box could be mounted directly into the DIY board. If you can mount the DIY board so it has its usb available from the outside (like the original usb board, then you can play with whatever isolaters/jitter reducers you want and find the best ones.

 

[YashN]

Putting the DIYinHK board inside makes a lot of sense......but I am not sure about the regen. Will the regen always be better?

Insofar as it has a lower noise profile for its USB PHY section, it should. It also has a couple of other enhancements and clever designs to it. As a side point, if using normal USB cables (as opposed to optical ones), even with the Regen, your overall system will be susceptible to signal integrity issues and the noise associated with retrieving the bits form the signals.

Now we have the Sonore Microrender that uses Ethernet and is getting rave reviews. This could be connected to the usb connector on the DIY board with a small usb/usb adapter.

The Sonore MicroRendu has an improved design of the Regen internally. The same designer/EE did both: John Swenson.

Same with the new upcoming PS Audio solution they say sounds better than Audioquest Jitterbug/Regen combo. This new two box system will have CAT 5 in between both boxes again completely isolating the computer. Again, the second box could be mounted directly into the DIY board. If you can mount the DIY board so it has its usb available from the outside (like the original usb board, then you can play with whatever isolaters/jitter reducers you want and find the best ones.

I just watched Paul's video. It sounds like PS Audio has taken one step ahead of a similar but improved product by Uptone Audio which was planned a while ago but has yet to see the light of day.

The idea is good. The thing is: Paul's explanations about Ethernet packets and how this is transmitted over the Internet for the Web with data 'going to the 4 winds' wasn't very convincing.

With that little caveat in his marketing message, the idea and the results should still be good.

 

[Quadman]

Putting the DIYinHK board inside makes a lot of sense......but I am not sure about the regen. Will the regen always be better? Now we have the Sonore Microrender that uses Ethernet and is getting rave reviews. This could be connected to the usb connector on the DIY board with a small usb/usb adapter. Same with the new upcoming PS Audio solution they say sounds better than Audioquest Jitterbug/Regen combo. This new two box system will have CAT 5 in between both boxes again completely isolating the computer. Again, the second box could be mounted directly into the DIY board. If you can mount the DIY board so it has its usb available from the outside (like the original usb board, then you can play with whatever isolaters/jitter reducers you want and find the best ones.

Ric, as we know there is always better, but at what cost? Both units mentioned cost 75% of the Gustard, and we know by CES time other mfg.'s will have "better" units that break the $1000 barrier, then the $2000 barrier. I like the concept of both especially the Sonore piece as that is compatible with the highest PCM and DSD up-sampling whereas the PS Audio as of announcement is only 24/192 and DSD128. My router sits on the top level of the house and my listening room is bottom level with no cat connection between them and I just refuse to use the house AC adapters that are on the market for hi-end audio reproduction. So both units, for now, are out of the question for me. The regen is certainly better than nothing and with its small board will fit in the case easily without its case, especially if I remove all the other inputs except HDMI, or at worst it sits outside and I play around with making a small USB cable to go from regen to internal DSD512 card. The supplied 6 inch pigtail I have been told is not sonically good but a 4-5 inch silver based data lines with isolated ground and +5V may work very well and may actually get close to the desired 90 ohm impedance. We shall see.

 

[SimonBromleyUK]

I'm still away from home, and won't be able to play with the X20 until Sunday.

I have the W4S Recovery mounted internally. The case of it is pretty much intact,
with short hardwired leads exiting from it where the rear USB port was.
To secure it to the rear of the X20 I simply found some longer versions of the fixings
they use for the front panel. With a bit of adjustment to allow for entry to the USB
and PSU sockets, I then fixed straight through the X20's rear panel into the face
plate of the W4S. This seems to provide a pretty secure connection.

As for the coax side of things, I am now 100% sure that it just transmits the 100 MHz
master clock signal. Interestingly, if you look at the coax area on the output board, it
actually looks like it has mounting holes for a full size clock in this area.

I think the reason they mounted the main clock, and extra bit clocks by the FPGA, is
that Gustard's AUTO adaptive based re-clocking is done in this main FPGA. Therefore,
it makes sense to have the clocks here. Then send the re-clocked I2S signals from here
to the output board via LVDS, and the 100 Mhz master onward via the coax.
Switch over to NORMAL clock mode, and you are basically back to the default ess9018
clocking, which uses their 'Time Domain Jitter Eliminator' circuit. Here the X20 is
simply sending it's 100Mhz clock signal to the 9018's on the output board.
So, whilst this set up might suit Gustard's clocking arrangements. It probably impacts
NORMAL mode negatively, since the master clock now sits a substantial distance from
the DAC's, and is also routed through the FPGA chip.
The usual placement of the master clock is as close to the DAC's as possible to reduce
jitter and any outside influence etc.

I think like many, I preferred the X20 in AUTO mode when I first got it. So basically
left it in this mode ever since. To me, it added a sense of spaciousness that the NORMAL
mode seemed to lack. However, I haven't really experimented with the clock modes since
using DSD. I think I've maybe tried it a couple of times, and can't remember noticing
much difference. But, always switched back to AUTO mode, as that had become my default.

I'm eager to now have a listening session on Sunday, to see if I can perceive as much
difference with DSD as I did with PCM, when I first got the X20. I'm not sure Gustard's
adaptive clocking even works in DSD mode, as this mode automatically drops back into 'normal'
mode if the signals aren't compatible (it just doesn't tell you it's doing so).

We shall see ...

The DSD data and bit-clock lines definitely go through the LVDS chips and ribbon cable.
Logically, these all need to be run exactly together, for impedance matching issues etc.
Annoyingly, the newer versions of the output board now use a larger LVDS chip. Older
ones like mine use a much smaller version. With a bit of solder skill it would be
possible to input directly into the I2S line as they go into the output boards FPGA
chip, using this chips output traces. No chance of that with the tiny lead outs of the
chip in mine. Oh well ...

If I find there's either no, or only a small amount of difference between the clock
modes using DSD. I will definitely try out a custom 100 Mhz clock, going straight into
the output board. A higher quality clock, without those extra inches of track, not going
through the FPGA, and not going all the way through that coax, has surely got to
sound better?

I'm also going to source a couple of those ribbon cable connectors. I can then customise
them. Work out which lines contain what, and then tap into them using the LVDS outputs
of the Audiophonics card, and see what happens.

So that's the next few weekends taken care of. Lol ...

Regards

Simon

 

[SimonBromleyUK]

Just a quick update. My Crystek clock has turned up, I'm just awaiting the PSU bits
for it, then I'll figure out the best way of installing it.

As you can see from the photo's below. The X20 had it's main clock right next to the
DAC's on the output board, until quite late on in the development process. The fitting
holes and X1 component marker, are still there on my board. Older ones still have the
outline of the clock printed on them.

I'm going with an external PSU for it, but there may be a good chance those feeling
adventurous might be able to just remove the coax and simply solder an appropriate
clock straight in.

They obviously believed their re-clocking circuit was worth re-positioning the main
clock for. However, since this re-clocking doesn't seem to be active when using DSD.
Having the main clock sited so far away from the DAC's, more than likely compromises
DSD sound quality. And, testing so far seems to indicate this.

Also, I have now got some spare ribbon cables and 10 way FFC connectors.
This coming weekend I shall be wiring up the WaveIO's I2S outputs via an LVDS
circuit, direct into the output boards ribbon connector. Possibly, bypassing all of the
digital boards signal electronics entirely. Again, initial testing seems promising, and
all the X20's functions like volume, filters etc all appear to still work fine.
But, I won't know full details until I can spend time trying everything
out, and these things have a tendency to never run smoothly. Lol ...

I'll post an update as soon as I know anything.

Regards

Simon

 

[Quadman]

I can't wait for your results Simon, this is some exciting stuff.

As an update to my DSD512 project, I received all the necessary parts, built the dual PSU and then assembled all the "parts" I then removed the Digital board from the Dac for ease of access. This is a bit challenging but not that difficult, you have to remove the 4 screws off the back plate, 2 more screws from the bottom that hold the back plate on. Then remove the 6 small screws that hold the AES connectors and the one small screw that holds the USB card in place then carefully pull the back plate off and lift the digital board from the front side of the dac also while lifting the back plate to clear the AES tab. Once this is done the board comes out pretty easily. I then removed the digital input AES connector as this will be my entry point for the 6" USB cable from my regen to the DSD512 card. I elected to keep the regen outside the dac and this method seemed the easiest to implement. I then removed the USB card. Then I grabbed my test breadboard wires with the dupont male or female connectors and inserted them into the appropriate test holes on the PCIe receptacle, carefully double and triple checking they were located in the correct holes. I then put my DSD card on nylon stilts like Simon did with his and located it in near the PCIe module then connected these bread board leads to the proper pins on the I2S header. Lastly I connected the 5V and 3.3V power leads. I plugged the X20 in and the display read PCM, wtf!!!! Once PCIe slot B15 sees 3.3Vdc the dac is supposed to switch immediately to DSD mode. So I began to trouble shot the cause, I verified the DSD board was seeing 3.3Vdc, I verified that the DSD board was sending a 5Vdc handshake to the PCIe module, I could measure 3.3Vdc on the dupont exposed metal pin at B15. What I could not verify without the board removed was if the pin was making solid contact with the tiny wire in the PCIe slot. Eventually I discovered that Pin A3 which is supposed to be the ground connection for the 5Vdc handshake and 3.3Vdc power was not touching the breadboard pin to create contact and thus ground. Apparently the dac needs to use A3 as ground for it to switch to DSD. I had good contact at several other ground pins on the PCIe, they all ground to the same point as A3, but I was not getting any success. I put the stuff away over Fathers day weekend and reproached the issue on Monday evening. This time I had the idea to put something small that was thinner than the USB card into the PCIe slot that would still put some pressure on the PCIe wires to "push" them into the breadboard wires. I ended up using a old CC, cut to fit each slot and added 2 pcs of masking tape on one side and 1 pc on the other side this seemed to work perfectly as my connection to ground was very good except at pin A3, I swear they used magnet wire there and cleaned the insulation off for the USB card but left on everywhere else. I still connected everything as before and plugged the Dac in and still had PCM in the display, the dac still was not recognizing the 3.3Vdc at pin B15.

This weekend I compete in a KCBS (Kansas City BBQ Society) competition so this week is shot in prep for that, Possibly weekend after I will pull the digital board again and test from the bottom solder points of the PCIe to better see whats going on and possibly solder leads directly to B15, A4 and A3 ( 3.3V +, 5V handshake and ground) that way I am sure of a solid connection. If that fails then I will follow Simon and take the digital board completely out of the picture by going USB to the DSD512 card, a I2S to HDMI card, the ribbon cable to the output board and then add a 100 Mhz clock where the coax tower now sits as Simon has pointed out in the above post and also commented on being successfully done at a nearby tweakers house. I am determined to get DSD512 to work one way or another.

As a side note when I removed the USB card I cleaned it's contacts with dexoit cleaner/preserver and inserted and removed it several times. The sound stage after re-connecting everything seemed more involving, transparency was better and the way everything came together was extremely addicting, I was now favoring my dac with the stock gustrad clock over my friends with the Accusilicon clock. His still had better defined leading edges and possibly a touch more transparency but the overall presentation was not quite as engaging as my dac. Combining the strengths of both dacs would be perfect, but how many times have we said that during shootouts. Could it be possible the cleaning of the USB cards pins added this slight extra bit of audio magic, I guess as I have no other explanation.

I will continue on my quest to get DSD512, and when I do you will know. Go Simon, Go.

 

[cpvniii]

The first 4 level one mods of the Gustard x20u are exceptional. I am a skeptic. However, I know what I hear. The mods make a major positive impact on tone, sound stage and clarity. Still a work in process after only 96 hours of break in. But I am experiencing unexpected changes after the upgrades at about 90 hours. Color me impressed.

 

[Quadman]

The first 4 level one mods of the Gustard x20u are exceptional. I am a skeptic. However, I know what I hear. The mods make a major positive impact on tone, sound stage and clarity. Still a work in process after only 96 hours of break in. But I am experiencing unexpected changes after the upgrades at about 90 hours. Color me impressed.

It only keeps getting better. I have done two gustards and reported extensively on the second's progress as I modded it to full level 1. Finishing the AC mods and damping the big power caps with the EAR material Ric talks about gets you about 85% of the way to full level 1 mod. It is not an insignificant change. I have been a audiophile since the late 80's I have had hundreds of shootouts thru the years, the Gustard is the real deal. For owners who are not comfortable doing any mods, for the $425 that Ric charges this dac becomes a whole different level and well worth the extra cost. People spend that $ on power cords, interconnects and other accessories to make ones system better. Ric's mod is mostly science based, other than the quantum chips, and transforms the Gustard into a serious audiophile dac. Get a driver that can upsample to DSD 256 and watch as your face freezes into a huge grin ear to ear as you listen to music. It is really good stock, it borders on true greatness with mods and DSD256. Let me stress again up sampled PCM sounds very very good, up sampled DSD256 is just more analog like with expanded soundstage, it reminds me a lot of my SME30 TT with dynavector XV1S cartridge rig.

I have still not been successful on the DSD512 project. I finally got the wiring schematic worked out. I improved some connections by soldering to the bottom of the PCIe module or the header pins of the DSD512 card. Yet when I hit play the Gustard goes into unlocked frequency and no music. The DIY folks mentioned in the last email that the DSD lines need to be no longer than 5cm, mine are about 65-70mm. So I may try to shorten them to the 50mm range but it will be a very tight fit. I find it hard to believe that will fix things. If I am a bit long on my DSD lines why does the signal stay unlocked, should it perhaps be unstable with stuttering rather than unlocked. I am using high quality 28 ga silver wire with cotton insulation for the DSD lines, actually the same wire I use for the custom coax cable. What I thought would be a relatively easy project has turned into a hair pulling, patience testing project. The one thing I am impressed with, with all the fiddling on the I2S lines when I drop the stock USB card back in the gustard it continues to play as if nothing changed. It seems almost bullet proof. This is one well built DAC.

 

[cpvniii]

It only keeps getting better. I have done two gustards and reported extensively on the second's progress as I modded it to full level 1. Finishing the AC mods and damping the big power caps with the EAR material Ric talks about gets you about 85% of the way to full level 1 mod. It is not an insignificant change. I have been a audiophile since the late 80's I have had hundreds of shootouts thru the years, the Gustard is the real deal. For owners who are not comfortable doing any mods, for the $425 that Ric charges this dac becomes a whole different level and well worth the extra cost. People spend that $ on power cords, interconnects and other accessories to make ones system better. Ric's mod is mostly science based, other than the quantum chips, and transforms the Gustard into a serious audiophile dac. Get a driver that can upsample to DSD 256 and watch as your face freezes into a huge grin ear to ear as you listen to music. It is really good stock, it borders on true greatness with mods and DSD256. Let me stress again up sampled PCM sounds very very good, up sampled DSD256 is just more analog like with expanded soundstage, it reminds me a lot of my SME30 TT with dynavector XV1S cartridge rig.

I have still not been successful on the DSD512 project. I finally got the wiring schematic worked out. I improved some connections by soldering to the bottom of the PCIe module or the header pins of the DSD512 card. Yet when I hit play the Gustard goes into unlocked frequency and no music. The DIY folks mentioned in the last email that the DSD lines need to be no longer than 5cm, mine are about 65-70mm. So I may try to shorten them to the 50mm range but it will be a very tight fit. I find it hard to believe that will fix things. If I am a bit long on my DSD lines why does the signal stay unlocked, should it perhaps be unstable with stuttering rather than unlocked. I am using high quality 28 ga silver wire with cotton insulation for the DSD lines, actually the same wire I use for the custom coax cable. What I thought would be a relatively easy project has turned into a hair pulling, patience testing project. The one thing I am impressed with, with all the fiddling on the I2S lines when I drop the stock USB card back in the gustard it continues to play as if nothing changed. It seems almost bullet proof. This is one well built DAC.

The DIYin HK card appears to be for PC's only. Have been running my music on a MacPro for 6 years so I will have to seek another avenue. I may be limited by Audirvana at present.

 

[Quadman]

Well I finally got the DIY DSD card to play DSD512, geeze what should have been a relatively easy project turned into a several week frustration nightmare. The final piece was gustard keeps making running changes to their dac as they go and one production is not necessarily the same as another production. Which, as you can imagine, makes it very difficult for DIY's to just tweak away. I was following Simon who has for weeks been playing his WAVE I/O card with great results direct into the I2S lines of the USB's PCIe module. First I messed up my ground connection for the 3.3 and 5V lines that the Gustard needs to see on the PCIe, I was only connecting one line to this "very important" ground and the other line to a different ground. You cannot do that both the 3.3Vdc and 5Vdc lines have to connect to the A3 PCIe pin, if they don't The dac won't switch into DSD mode. Simon finally cleared me up on that, sometimes the most obvious is so hard to see. Then I used the same DSD connections he used and I could not get the Gustad to lock on to a frequency, the display remain unlocked, wtf? Simon and I discussed and most of the symptoms I was seeing on the display we similar to his except he could lock onto a frequency and I couldn't. So yesterday I said what the heck and I switched the DSD clock and DSD R lines and I'll be darned the dac played music. I had previously switched the lines before, but that was when I did not have both voltage lines grounded to A3. So what should have been simple was made way more difficult due to my stubbornness to connect both voltage lines to A3 (there is more to that story than I type here) and faulty schematics from gustard or their constantly making little changes to circuits making it tougher for us DIY's.

Anyway the dac did lock and I up sampled music files to DSD512, Whoo Hoo Then I started to hear some periodic white noise like sounds (kind of like a motorboat or bumble bee changing speeds) when playing music, these could last from 5-30 seconds then go away and then re-appear. So I changed sampling rate to DSD256 and listened I had no strange sounds when playing at this rate. So I think it is one of two things. 1) my DIY low noise dual PSU is overworking driving this card and sending noise into the xmos chip or 2) the ESS 9018 dac chip is not capable of playing DSD512 smoothly. I don't think it would be related to my USB cable length from the PC to the dac (2m). So when time allows I will build a big boy psu and connect the DSD card to that to see if that solves the problem. I may also shorten my DSD I2S lines, DIY says that should be 50mm or shorter mine are probably 65mm. If either of those two don't solve the white noise issue then it may well be the 9018 chips may not handle DSD512 smoothly.

When the music was playing without white noise there was more air around instruments and performers, more presence to the vocalist. It was very nice and certainly to brief to make any definitive statements. I did listen for over 2 hours at DSD256 and felt there was more presence as well, more transparency and I was more involved in the music. I think Ric and Simon hit it on the head when they removed the USB cards and reported improved sonics. Taking that extra load off the Gustards digital PSU and switching it to a external PSU seems to have benefits. So even if I cannot get DSD512 to be stable I think I came out ahead in the end. More listening will clarify this situation.


Here it is DSD512 (low res phone image, sorry)

 

[Quadman]

I AM IN LOVE!!!!!!!........ with DSD512. The leap from 256 to 512 is much greater than the leap from 128 to 256. I am gobsmacked, grinning ear to ear about my experience last night. It might be the single greatest step forward I have ever experienced in high end audio, and there a been quit a few of those thru the years. I started yesterday by pulling my dac from the rack to check how much shorter can I really make the DSD lines, while I was examining that, I happened to notice my soldering job on the custom coax cable on the digital board was not my best work, I hung my head in shame. So I heated up the iron touched it to the wire and then slid over to the solder and got a really nice connection. Then for the heck of it I touched up the output side as well. When I started the music I selected DSD512, thinking I may only get a few minutes before the white noise would force me to lower the res down to 256. Well it was not totally stable, there was some random white noise from time to time but for the most part it was just blissful, wonderful music coming forth. Enough that I made a 6 hour listening session out of it. Now I am very determined to maximize all my I2s connections, ground connections and PSU to try to get it even more stable because I am addicted to that wonderful, magical sound.

How is it different? I don't think my limited audio vocabulary is sufficient to describe it, Jonathon Valin, Harry Pearson (rest in peace) Roy Gregory would do it much better justice than I. The background noise just disappeared, sounds emerged from the blackness with more presence and 3D palpability than I was accustomed to, and I thought I had a lot of that to begin with. The music was relaxed yet pace rhythm and drive was perfect. Tonality was spot on with that little extra detail that lets you really feel (see?) the technique, passion and skill the performer was putting forth. The geometrical space was the largest I have ever had in any system. Separation of the performers was at a all time high, combine that with the increased transparency and palpability and I just sat there jaw dropped enjoying every note that was being played. The random white noise did creep in and it was slightly annoying and a few times almost forced me to lower the res but then the music would come forth uninterrupted for several songs and all was great again.

This dac just keeps amazing me, Full Level 1 mod as per Ric, DSD512 card from DIYinHK and external PSU combined with DSD512 playback. I don't know how much $ you would have to spend on a dac to better this. This dac has nothing to be ashamed of against any dac at any price. Seriously if you want to take your Gustard to the next level get in touch with Ric and get the level 1 mod and then hope in the near future the DSD512 DDC's will be more common.

I am in LOVE!!!!!

 

[hifial]

Quadman, congratulations. DSD512 IS amazing. Until one hears it for themselves they just do not believe or understand it.

On the white noise your are hearing periodically. What are the specs of the computer you are using? What is the Driver you are using? Is the Driver designed to handle DSD512?

And yes, the ESS 9018 could be the issue.

As far as what one would have to spend to get better. $4,000.00 Retail. The T+A DAC 8 DSD, och. But then it is plug and play. For a not better but for another choice of DSD512 DAC one could try the iFi Micro DAC. I heard it at a friends house playing DSD512 and was impressed.

It seems DSD512 is the undiscovered country, the mother load or the Holy Grail, depending on ones choice.

 

[Quadman]

@hifial Totally agree DSD512 is, for now, the holy grail. Knowing DSD1024 will happen in the not to far off future. And yes, you just don't know until you experience it first hand. My PC should be adequate i7-4790 CPU, 8 gb ram huge 600 watt platinum sea sonic PSU, which measures very good for a switching supply. Computer is 100% dedicated to music playback and I use audio fidelizer to control unneeded windows operations. The driver is a genuine theyscon, now version 3.38 from DIYinhk and was designed specifically for this card and their multichannel card. So that should be good. Fixing up my shameful soldering of the custom coax probably cleared 50% of the noise issues. So shorter very high quality I2S lines will be made, I will solder the return grounds to the DSD cards header and build that custom big boy PSu for the DSD card and then solder a 100mHz clock (externally powered) close to the dac chips. I am hoping the above fix's will clear up another 75-90% of the noise issues, which then will leave almost no noise at all. Maybe that 9018 dual mono arraingement can play DSD512 smoothly.

I have to hear that T&A dac but that seems like cheating, just plug and play come on. Any one can do that

Quadman, congratulations. DSD512 IS amazing. Until one hears it for themselves they just do not believe or understand it.

On the white noise your are hearing periodically. What are the specs of the computer you are using? What is the Driver you are using? Is the Driver designed to handle DSD512?

And yes, the ESS 9018 could be the issue.

As far as what one would have to spend to get better. $4,000.00 Retail. The T+A DAC 8 DSD, och. But then it is plug and play. For a not better but for another choice of DSD512 DAC one could try the iFi Micro DAC. I heard it at a friends house playing DSD512 and was impressed.

It seems DSD512 is the undiscovered country, the mother load or the Holy Grail, depending on ones choice.

 

[hifial]

@hifial Totally agree DSD512 is, for now, the holy grail. Knowing DSD1024 will happen in the not to far off future. And yes, you just don't know until you experience it first hand. My PC should be adequate i7-4790 CPU, 8 gb ram huge 600 watt platinum sea sonic PSU, which measures very good for a switching supply. Computer is 100% dedicated to music playback and I use audio fidelizer to control unneeded windows operations. The driver is a genuine theyscon, now version 3.38 from DIYinhk and was designed specifically for this card and their multichannel card. So that should be good. Fixing up my shameful soldering of the custom coax probably cleared 50% of the noise issues. So shorter very high quality I2S lines will be made, I will solder the return grounds to the DSD cards header and build that custom big boy PSu for the DSD card and then solder a 100mHz clock (externally powered) close to the dac chips. I am hoping the above fix's will clear up another 75-90% of the noise issues, which then will leave almost no noise at all. Maybe that 9018 dual mono arraingement can play DSD512 smoothly.

I have to hear that T&A dac but that seems like cheating, just plug and play come on. Any one can do that

Yea, some of us need to cheat,lol.

As far as the CPU, many of us doing DSD512 have found out CPU speed can be finicky. Your 3.6 gHz may not cut it. Are you overclocking it to 4.0? If not give that a try and see if that helps.
The 8GB and the SeaSonic is great.

What do you use to up-sample your music files to DSD512? I use HQ Player.

Glad to hear you are using Fidelizer. I used use it though now I use Audio Optimizer. They just came out with a new version for W10. I use W10 Pro by the way.

 

[Quadman]

I also use HQPlayer and have been using the 2s filters and cpu usage is in the mid-20's when up sampling to DSD512. I didn't get the K version of the processor so I am hesitant to over clock. I also run Windows 10pro. I have heard good things about AO, I'll have to try some day. Here's a screen shot of task manager while playing DSD512

Yea, some of us need to cheat,lol.

As far as the CPU, many of us doing DSD512 have found out CPU speed can be finicky. Your 3.6 gHz may not cut it. Are you overclocking it to 4.0? If not give that a try and see if that helps.
The 8GB and the SeaSonic is great.

What do you use to up-sample your music files to DSD512? I use HQ Player.

Glad to hear you are using Fidelizer. I used use it though now I use Audio Optimizer. They just came out with a new version for W10. I use W10 Pro by the way.