DSP/DRC for Grimm MU-1 + Mola Mola Tambaqui

[Sangster]

Any Grimm MU-1 + Tambaqui owners using any kind of Digital Room Correction / DSP of any flavor in their systems. What are your solutions? This would be mainly for using Roon as the source. Thanks in advance,

 

[KrellFan1]

Any Grimm MU-1 + Tambaqui owners using any kind of Digital Room Correction / DSP of any flavor in their systems. What are your solutions? This would be mainly for using Roon as the source. Thanks in advance,

I have had a Tambaqui for a few weeks now and am friendly with a very knowledgable Roon engineer whose judgement I respect. He advised not to bother with DSP as if to say it is more trouble than it's worth. I have RoomPerfect (via my Lyngdorf MP-60) which handles any and all issues but alas, doesn't extend of course to my 2.0 Krell system with the DAC, music server and streamer.. Best solution for me has been to focus on room treatment and it works VERY well. No complaints at all!

 

[msimanyi]

@Sangster, I'm also an MU1 owner. Based on some pretty extensive comments from a person I trust - and I recognize this is NOT what you were likely considering when asking about DSP/DRC - I would explore the BACCH solution.

Their website is quite complex, but for whetting your appetite the Bacch4Mac option(s) could be worthy. https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/

I've read that even the basic software solution is incredible, but it seems to me (with no direct experience) that the head-position corrections are likely where the real magic lies. That said, I believe you can start with the base software package and upgrade to the higher levels for the difference in price.

I'd do this myself if I could figure out how to incorporate my MU1 in the playback (limited to AES output), especially since I have a spare Mac Mini sitting around. Perhaps the Mac Mini can be a Roon endpoint, leaving the MU1 to serve as the Core. But I have another twist: all my electronics are in a "closet" away from my listening room, so I'm not sure it's practical for me to use the Mac Mini as an endpoint.

 

[JGlacken]

I have a Tambaqui fed by Antipodes K-50.
I would recommend contacting Mitch Barnett of Accurate Sound. He designed some convolution filters that are loaded into Roon Server after sweeps are performed in you room. Made a heck of a difference for me.

 

[Brucemck2]

I have a Tambaqui fed by Antipodes K-50.
I would recommend contacting Mitch Barnett of Accurate Sound. He designed some convolution filters that are loaded into Roon Server after sweeps are performed in you room. Made a heck of a difference for me.

Ditto on recommending Mitch. He provided nice improvements for me in two different high-end settings (one set of filters for a setting with extensive acoustic treatment and another in a ”typical hi-rise condo“ setting.) In both cases the “losses” from inserting DRC were outweighed by the compelling gains.

 

[Digital Buddha]

DSP such as Accurate/audiolense that Mitch uses and BACCH that im about to order is the future for sure. I cannot go back after hearing my system with some of Mitch's audiolense filters.

 

[KrellFan1]

@Sangster, I'm also an MU1 owner. Based on some pretty extensive comments from a person I trust - and I recognize this is NOT what you were likely considering when asking about DSP/DRC - I would explore the BACCH solution.

Their website is quite complex, but for whetting your appetite the Bacch4Mac option(s) could be worthy. https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/

I've read that even the basic software solution is incredible, but it seems to me (with no direct experience) that the head-position corrections are likely where the real magic lies. That said, I believe you can start with the base software package and upgrade to the higher levels for the difference in price.

I'd do this myself if I could figure out how to incorporate my MU1 in the playback (limited to AES output), especially since I have a spare Mac Mini sitting around. Perhaps the Mac Mini can be a Roon endpoint, leaving the MU1 to serve as the Core. But I have another twist: all my electronics are in a "closet" away from my listening room, so I'm not sure it's practical for me to use the Mac Mini as an endpoint.

Fascinating for sure and thanks for the info. I too struggle to understand how I might incorporate this software into my audio chain. I’ve got a Sonore Rendu SE streamer feeding a Tamabqui DAC via a Small Green Computer that functions as my dedicated Roon core. So I’m married to Roon as a lifetime member. I USED to use a Mac Mini to host my Roon core, but found SGC far more stable. The software seems amazing, but also mutually exclusive and not compatible with Roon unless POSSIBLY on a Mac platform. Do I have that right? Thx.

 

[msimanyi]

I have no direct experience with it - yet - but it seems to me you'd output from the SGC to the Mac hosting BACCHSP, then from there to your DAC. (In case my understanding is incorrect, I think you're currently doing Sonore Rendu ST > SGC > Tambaqui.)

I found this that might help make sense of it: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/can-you-use-mac-mini-for-a-roon-endpoint/83383/6. My thought is the Mac hosting BACCHSP likely will be a Roon endpoint that you control via the phone or pad app, but I could be totally wrong about that.

I understand the gentleman behind BACCHSP is also quite responsive to inquiries, so you might reach out to the company by email or phone.

 

[Digital Buddha]

Here what im thinking for the BACCH / grimm mu1 setup. Should also provide upsampled youtube concert content on the big screen. Im hoping the apple tv has enough delay perimeter to lip sync the setup.

 

[Sangster]

I have no direct experience with it - yet - but it seems to me you'd output from the SGC to the Mac hosting BACCHSP, then from there to your DAC. (In case my understanding is incorrect, I think you're currently doing Sonore Rendu ST > SGC > Tambaqui.)

I found this that might help make sense of it: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/can-you-use-mac-mini-for-a-roon-endpoint/83383/6. My thought is the Mac hosting BACCHSP likely will be a Roon endpoint that you control via the phone or pad app, but I could be totally wrong about that.

I understand the gentleman behind BACCHSP is also quite responsive to inquiries, so you might reach out to the company by email or phone.

My audio path is Roon Core on Intel NUC—> EtherRegen —> Tambaqui. Plan was to add an MU-1, but now that the MU-2 is out, waiting to see if that replaces the Tambaqui as well.

 

[godofwealth]

I have recently acquired the Mola Mola Makua preamp, fully loaded with the phono stage — which is amazing — and the DAC that’s the same as the Tambaqui (perhaps better according to the designer Brian Putzeys as it does away with the Tambaqui’s digital volume control in favor of a no holds barred discrete class A gain stage). But I’m feeding Roon direct through the LAN input through a Roon Intel NUC server remotely located in a closet in a different area of my house. Works really well.

So the question is: why bother getting the Grimm MU-1? One problem with the MU-1 is that native DSD is not passed directly to the Makua. Once you use its upsampler, then you need to use the AES-EBU output, which means PCM conversion. Not sure it’s worth the trade off, particularly given the asking price. I’m in general wary of these additional processors that are introducing their own colorations.

Here’s my setup. I use the Mola Mola Kaluga class D amps that are terrific as well. It’s in my second system. My primary system is all tube — single ended triode and horn based. But the Mola Mola is great for casual listening when I don’t feel like turning on the 25+ tubes in my primary system!

 

[godofwealth]

I also use as my primary digital source the incomparable CEC TL0 belt driven two box CD transport. I have yet to hear a streamer that can touch its gripping and hugely dynamic sound.

 

[KrellFan1]

My audio path is Roon Core on Intel NUC—> EtherRegen —> Tambaqui. Plan was to add an MU-1, but now that the MU-2 is out, waiting to see if that replaces the Tambaqui as well.

At some point I think we have to draw a line - at least I do. I just purchased my Tambaqui within the past two months and no way am I going to consider swapping that out now that I absolutely LOVE the SQ I am getting from the components I have. I will also send my Sonore in for a power supply and damping upgrade which will be significant. I am fully committed to the fiber optical bliss that starts with the Rendu. Sure, the MU1 is said to be great. No doubt it is and no doubt the MU2 will be better still. But I've recently upgraded my interconnects and speaker cable and believe I've got the very nest I'd ever be able to afford ...AT ANY PRICE. I also installed IsoAcoustics GAIA this past week and OMG! So in short, I do not see an easy way to integrate Bacchus in to my chain, and for me personally, way too much work for what may be nominal gain. If anything, this path might be more practical and easier to integrate. I've made a note to follow up with Accurate Sound later in the week. https://accuratesound.ca/digital-room-correction-drc-calibration/

 

[KrellFan1]

I have recently acquired the Mola Mola Makua preamp, fully loaded with the phono stage — which is amazing — and the DAC that’s the same as the Tambaqui (perhaps better according to the designer Brian Putzeys as it does away with the Tambaqui’s digital volume control in favor of a no holds barred discrete class A gain stage). But I’m feeding Roon direct through the LAN input through a Roon Intel NUC server remotely located in a closet in a different area of my house. Works really well.

So the question is: why bother getting the Grimm MU-1? One problem with the MU-1 is that native DSD is not passed directly to the Makua. Once you use its upsampler, then you need to use the AES-EBU output, which means PCM conversion. Not sure it’s worth the trade off, particularly given the asking price. I’m in general wary of these additional processors that are introducing their own colorations.

Here’s my setup. I use the Mola Mola Kaluga class D amps that are terrific as well. It’s in my second system. My primary system is all tube — single ended triode and horn based. But the Mola Mola is great for casual listening when I don’t feel like turning on the 25+ tubes in my primary system!
View attachment 110246 View attachment 110247

Very cool and nice system. IDC much about DSD though my Tambaqui has no problem supporting DSD feeding my Krell preamplifier. The big question for me is if this Makua preamplifier is going to deliver over 10K worth of SQ gain versus what I presently have in the Krell Illusion II. AND BTW, forgot to mention hat Bil Parrish who is the USA distributor for Mola Mola says that on should absolutely use a music streamer for optimal results with respect to the Tambaqui. I too have it Hooke up to my network via ethernet but Bill states the Tambaqui sounds better when deployed with a good music streamer. Cheers ...

 

[godofwealth]

After many years of playing around with room correction, I decided the game was not worth the candle. The additional DSP introduces colorations that are just not worth the possible improvements. All these curves of how smooth the response is with room correction are illusory. If you move around a room and take measurements, your corrected room response goes to pieces. I do have the Lyngdorf 2170 digital PWM with built in RoomPerfect correction. It’s a mixed bag. The Lyngdorf is a really poor DAC taken on its own — see its measurements on audioscience.com, where it ranks near the bottom of more than 200 DACs.

I rotate between 4-6 reference loudspeakers that vary considerably, from horns to stats to moving coil dynamic box loudspeakers. The differences in sound between loudspeakers vastly outweighs any changes from DSP.

So, now I’m happy without any room correction although every once in a while I try the Lyngdorf. Not for very long. It’s too colored sounding for my tastes. My advice: before trying expensive tweaks like the Grimm, try different loudspeakers. If you’ve never tried stats, get a pair of Quads. If you haven’t heard good horns, get a pair of La Scalas. Or a Harbeth for a really low coloration midrange loudspeaker. Each of these will teach you a lot more about sound than an expensive streamer. My $0.02!

 

[Sangster]

I have recently acquired the Mola Mola Makua preamp, fully loaded with the phono stage — which is amazing — and the DAC that’s the same as the Tambaqui (perhaps better according to the designer Brian Putzeys as it does away with the Tambaqui’s digital volume control in favor of a no holds barred discrete class A gain stage). But I’m feeding Roon direct through the LAN input through a Roon Intel NUC server remotely located in a closet in a different area of my house. Works really well.

So the question is: why bother getting the Grimm MU-1? One problem with the MU-1 is that native DSD is not passed directly to the Makua. Once you use its upsampler, then you need to use the AES-EBU output, which means PCM conversion. Not sure it’s worth the trade off, particularly given the asking price. I’m in general wary of these additional processors that are introducing their own colorations.

Here’s my setup. I use the Mola Mola Kaluga class D amps that are terrific as well. It’s in my second system. My primary system is all tube — single ended triode and horn based. But the Mola Mola is great for casual listening when I don’t feel like turning on the 25+ tubes in my primary system!
View attachment 110246 View attachment 110247

I think the Mola Mola DAC also converts everything to PCM for conversion to Analog.

 

[KrellFan1]

Very cool and nice system. IDC much about DSD though my Tambaqui has no problem supporting DSD feeding my Krell preamplifier. The big question for me is if this Makua preamplifier is going to deliver over 10K worth of SQ gain versus what I presently have in the Krell Illusion II.

After many years of playing around with room correction, I decided the game was not worth the candle. The additional DSP introduces colorations that are just not worth the possible improvements. All these curves of how smooth the response is with room correction are illusory. If you move around a room and take measurements, your corrected room response goes to pieces. I do have the Lyngdorf 2170 digital PWM with built in RoomPerfect correction. It’s a mixed bag. The Lyngdorf is a really poor DAC taken on its own — see its measurements on audioscience.com, where it ranks near the bottom of more than 200 DACs.

I rotate between 4-6 reference loudspeakers that vary considerably, from horns to stats to moving coil dynamic box loudspeakers. The differences in sound between loudspeakers vastly outweighs any changes from DSP.

So, now I’m happy without any room correction although every once in a while I try the Lyngdorf. Not for very long. It’s too colored sounding for my tastes. My advice: before trying expensive tweaks like the Grimm, try different loudspeakers. If you’ve never tried stats, get a pair of Quads. If you haven’t heard good horns, get a pair of La Scalas. Or a Harbeth for a really low coloration midrange loudspeaker. Each of these will teach you a lot more about sound than an expensive streamer. My $0.02!

Yep; pretty much agree here on all points made. The MP-60 is a FABULOUS product which I believe does an excellent job with EQ in my room. I have grown to covet RoomPerfect. That said, I agree entirely that the DAC on board is marginal at best. For Home Theater the MP-60 rocks. But for 2 channel stereo I find it unlistenable - hence explains why I run my Krell amp in HT bypass mode and bypass the Lyngdorf entirely when listening to 2 channel stereo. I have two REL subs and have the room fairly well treated without ANY EQ, and it sounds great. I WAS going to replace my Dynaudio Confidence C2's but with the help of a dealer, he persuaded me to instead tweak my C2's by tightening the driver screws and investing in IsoAcoustic GAIA's which essentially transformed my 8 year old speaker into "new" speakers.

So I am going to try to make peace with what I have with nothing but incremental upgrades for now - primarily investing in more Cerious Tech cables - primarily power cords as I have the vital interconnects and speaker cable at this point.

As for the Makua preamp, what are you comparing it to? How would you rate it among the pantheon of premium priced preamplifiers? Do you suppose I'd hear 10-12K worth of SQ bump relative to the Krell I now have?

 

[godofwealth]

I think the Mola Mola DAC also converts everything to PCM for conversion to Analog.

No, it does not. It converts all digital signals to a high bandwidth pulse width modulated signal. As per their website. PWM is not PCM!

“Mola Mola's Tambaqui DAC is the perfect upgrade for owners of complete high-end systems who want to retain the characteristic sound of their existing preamplifier whilst lifting their digital sources to another level. The converter is a two board stack. On the first board, all incoming digital audio is upsampled to 3.125MHz/32 bits and converted to noise shaped PWM. On the other board are two mono DACs, in which a discrete 32- stage FIR DAC and a single-stage 4th order filtering I/V converter, convert the PWM into analogue with a breathtaking 130dB SNR. This is near the theoretical limit for 24-bit files and far beyond that of even quad-speed DSD. Uniquely, distortion remains below the noise floor even for full scale signals.”

 

[godofwealth]

Yep; pretty much agree here on all points made. The MP-60 is a FABULOUS product which I believe does an excellent job with EQ in my room. I have grown to covet RoomPerfect. That said, I agree entirely that the DAC on board is marginal at best. For Home Theater the MP-60 rocks. But for 2 channel stereo I find it unlistenable - hence explains why I run my Krell amp in HT bypass mode and bypass the Lyngdorf entirely when listening to 2 channel stereo. I have two REL subs and have the room fairly well treated without ANY EQ, and it sounds great. I WAS going to replace my Dynaudio Confidence C2's but with the help of a dealer, he persuaded me to instead tweak my C2's by tightening the driver screws and investing in IsoAcoustic GAIA's which essentially transformed my 8 year old speaker into "new" speakers.

So I am going to try to make peace with what I have with nothing but incremental upgrades for now - primarily investing in more Cerious Tech cables - primarily power cords as I have the vital interconnects and speaker cable at this point.

As for the Makua preamp, what are you comparing it to? How would you rate it among the pantheon of premium priced preamplifiers? Do you suppose I'd hear 10-12K worth of SQ bump relative to the Krell I now have?

In my primary reference system, I use an ARC Ref 6SE tube preamp that’s pretty much state of the art in tube preamps. It’s very different sounding than the Makua. The ARC sets up an enormous holographic soundstage that the best tube preamps can only do so well. As good as the Makua is, it can’t touch the ARC Ref 6SE. I don’t think any solid state preamp can match the Ref 6SE, and I’ve heard or owned many solid state preamps. Even the Uber expensive two box Mark Levinson 32 (or now the 52) can’t come close.

But in the realm of all in one solid state preamps, I think the Makua is world class. It combines three large expensive and heavy products in my reference system — the Lampizator Pacific DAC, the ARC Ref Phono 3SE and the ARC Ref 6SE — into one much smaller and cooler running unit. But you have to sacrifice something for convenience. The Makua does not match the sheer palpability of the Pacific DAC with its bevy of Richard Krohn 300B tubes — that’s out of the realm of solid state, like the Kaluga amp can never match the sheer voluptuousness of my Triode Labs 45 monoblocks. But this SET produces just one watt! That’s all I need for my Klipsch La Scalas, which are 105dB efficient. So most of the time, my SET is only producing a few milliwatts of power for driving these large 200 pound horns. But I can’t use these SETs on a Harbeth or Quad, which need 100-200x more power.

If you want to stick to solid state and want a one box software controlled preamp, the Makua is the current king of the hill in solid state all in one preamps. I can’t think of anything else that can match it. The software app is beautifully designed and truly a masterpiece of user interface. It makes stuff like the Devialet integrated amp configuration software through SD camera cards look like Stone Age technology.

 

[KrellFan1]

No, it does not. It converts all digital signals to a high bandwidth pulse width modulated signal. As per their website. PWM is not PCM!

“Mola Mola's Tambaqui DAC is the perfect upgrade for owners of complete high-end systems who want to retain the characteristic sound of their existing preamplifier whilst lifting their digital sources to another level. The converter is a two board stack. On the first board, all incoming digital audio is upsampled to 3.125MHz/32 bits and converted to noise shaped PWM. On the other board are two mono DACs, in which a discrete 32- stage FIR DAC and a single-stage 4th order filtering I/V converter, convert the PWM into analogue with a breathtaking 130dB SNR. This is near the theoretical limit for 24-bit files and far beyond that of even quad-speed DSD. Uniquely, distortion remains below the noise floor even for full scale signals.”

You are 100% correct and to a large extent accounts for one of the many reasons that makes this DAC so exceptional - especially at this price.