Don’t let the upgrade bug bite you in the “bum”: Be happy with what you have and enjoy the music

[microstrip]

To start with, price is a complex thing, and for what you said, you need an efficient market. So the search process needs to be efficient. Given the nature of the hobby, the search process is inefficient. How many old married guys with kids have the time to search? Rhapsody on one of his posts said his clients buy Ferrari, speakers etc - some search, some don't they have more important things to do such as family and work. But that itself means those who don't search cannot find the best price point. Bill and I have very similar tastes and literally one to one agreements when we listen together. He has zero time to travel, even locally in London to demo speakers. He can only do inhouse. No way is he going to find an ideal price point to tick all his boxes. He has accepted there will an inefficiency in the search process.

Unrelated point 2. What is price? A 100+ k speaker, how much does it actually cost on the street? A restored Apogee is quoted at street cost - 30k USD for Full Range, 80 - 100 if you want to buy Henk's Grands, which were the costliest speaker once at 85k (in inflation heard that today it would have been 350k). But at 30k street of FR, compared to less than 50k of the 100+k speaker, the Apogee does not have any costs embedded for being hauled to every hifi show, every reviewer, transport, logistics, marketing, distribution - none. At the same time, the price does not factor in local service and long term company guarantee. Price is for pure sonics. So, price is more complex than RRP. Not to mention that crossovers, crossover components, connectors, etc can be customized to the highest specs.

Point 3, similar to 1. All of us have a different research process. Look at Ron's amp search. Would that be your method? Would your method be his? Mine would differ from both of you. If you are ever a fly on the wall on conversations between Marc and me, we differ on everything - research process, audition style, music tastes, gear tastes. Once preference and tastes are established, the purchasing decision process itself differs between audiophiles. Some buy for the pride of ownership - "I want to have the biggest brand in da house". Some buy on "best deal process." Money is no problem as long as it is a great discount. Some buy for "arms length, ease of install process". Thing is, these differing buying behaviors create a further disconnect between what should the price be for what element of that decision is most important to you. Which of these various attributes do you think justifies the most premium - that itself will differ from what I think justifies the most premium.

Point 4. You bought the Wilson and the Vivaldi. Did you listen to the big Stenheim and the YG Sonja? Also the Lampi? I am not asking you which is better, just asking if you heard them. If not, you cannot establish your research for the price point was thorough. All you can establish is you were thorough by what you assume is the right way to do research (whatever that may be)

Point 5. Unrelated to the above, there are crossover points. For example, even if you were a fan of a particular brand, say Wilson or Logan, as you upgraded your way up the models, a point will come where the speaker even though more expensive will be too big for your room, and bring down the SQ. So unless an audiophile owns a Mike L or Marty type room, high probability that many others will affect their SQ adversely as they keep upgrading speakers

Point 6. Again, what is price and what is cost? AR has a price, but you can buy and sell AR used in the UK all day, so cost is virtually zero. It's only liquidity cost. So liquidity plays a big role factored into the RRP, if that is important.

Point 7. Examples, Apogee aside.
a. I have compared Audience (cheapest), Ansuz C (middle), and Odin (costliest) signal cables in the same system. The preference was Ansuz, Audience, Odin, in that order.
b. With cartridges, more than cost, it is which way do you sway - I prefer Ortofon A95, XV-1T, Lyra Etna type sounds, as well as Audio Technica ART-9, to Koetsu Coralstone type sounds.
c. Tenor 75, used price 6500, cheap unless you factor in driver replacement costs - plus that you can take out the preamp and associated cables. Of course only if your choice is the right speaker.
d. Having horns will reduce room shape and treatment costs quite a bit as they are directive.
e. Lampi

I highlighted a thread by Shakti from the German forum today in the Analog section. Extremely detailed process, which helps eliminate inefficiencies in the search.

So, my final examples of systems are in my set up and recommended components list, but that aside, talking to audiophiles and how they have purchased, the market is just inefficient

Your point 1 just confirms what I said - knowledge is needed. You can get it in many ways - a good dealer is the best way for most people. Surely if live in the dark side of the moon normal rules do not apply. But it is not what we are debating. We are not debating choice, just that higher price used with knowledge brings you a better product.

Point 2. I expressly asked "no refurbished Apogees". I am not interested in debating the "against" of product that people such you cherish and love. People get very passionate when they debate their loved. Just accept that it is not a product with the common manufacture and distribution and is out of this question we debate them. As well as Andromeda's speakers, used or DIY products.

Point 3. Great discounts just confuse the subject and add noise. They are not the rule. Very few people have access to them. We are addressing common people, not reviewers or David Wilson family.

Point 4. Curiously yes to the speakers, but in show conditions. Not my cup of tea. I am not interested in the Lampizator at all.

Point 5. Completely unrelated as you say. Nothing to do with what we are debating.

Point 6. Water droplets in a large sea, showing your preferences and matching. Anyway this point only show your great knowledge, not value. Please tell me if you had five times more money you would not be able to assemble a better system. In the end it is what we are debating.

BTW, it seems to me what I call knowledge is similar to what you call efficiency.

 

[bonzo75]

Your point 1 just confirms what I said - knowledge is needed. You can get it in many ways - a good dealer is the best way for most people. Surely if live in the dark side of the moon normal rules do not apply. But it is not what we are debating. We are not debating choice, just that higher price used with knowledge brings you a better product.

Point 2. I expressly asked "no refurbished Apogees". I am not interested in debating the "against" of product that people such you cherish and love. People get very passionate when they debate their loved. Just accept that it is not a product with the common manufacture and distribution and is out of this question we debate them. As well as Andromeda's speakers, used or DIY products.

Point 3. Great discounts just confuse the subject and add noise. They are not the rule. Very few people have access to them. We are addressing common people, not reviewers or David Wilson family.

Point 4. Curiously yes to the speakers, but in show conditions. Not my cup of tea. I am not interested in the Lampizator at all.

Point 5. Completely unrelated as you say. Nothing to do with what we are debating.

Point 6. Water droplets in a large sea, showing your preferences and matching. Anyway this point only show your great knowledge, not value. Please tell me if you had five times more money you would not be able to assemble a better system.
In the end it is what we are debating.

BTW, it seems to me what I call knowledge is similar to what you call efficiency.

Actually, if I had much more money, I would buy a bigger place for Apogee Grands instead of Apogee full range, and get the best sounding amplifier biamping them - not necessarily the best priced. This system is second choice to buying Mike's room which has to be bought with all the components in it including Mike.

I won't be changing my digital for more money. I already know higher priced digital that I have compared it to does not sound as good. Haven't compared the MSB select, so fine.

I would not be changing my Tenor 75 choice for appropriate amps.

If I had more money, I might add 3 or 4 systems. Systems don't get better buy buying a 200k or 300k speaker and adding expensive cabling. And yes, knowledge is not assimilated by all - if you are going by 1 or 2 knowledgeable dealers, like you said, even if they can be trusted, your search process is inefficient, because theirs is too.

The refurbed Apogees point was made to show what is price - that is the point you missed. RRP is misleading, and there are many attributes that add up to the RRP - so you might be paying for the wrong attribute, that is not important to you, if you don't break down the RRP into its components. Anyway, I had a few examples in there to highlight the inefficiency of knowledge garnering, which maybe I miscommunicated because you missed them. Great discounts are the rule, btw

 

[bonzo75]

You probably don't know this, but when Apogee Grands first came out, the first 5 owners bought 2 each. They put their money in storage.

Btw, if I had more money, I would customize each component further. There is a guy in London who has heavy platinum wound transformers in his Jadis, highly customized. But that is the way to go. If you like something, pay the money to customize it further - and given that he has 4 Rockports, multiple Techdas, Kronos, Thorens ref, Goldmund Ref, 200 arms or something like that, he has a lot of money.

So my second choice system would just be to buy Henk or a DIY horn guy and keep him here for an year till it gets tweaked. Pietro had Yamamura stay at his place to tune them, which is why he has speakers better than most, if not all

 

[Barry2013]

Me? No. I am all in favor of the right for anyone to put as much stickers/stuff on things they own. Here is my car, setting an example myself:

Girls think I am the coolest cat around!

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Me? No. I am all in favor of the right for anyone to put as much stickers/stuff on things they own. Here is my car, setting an example myself:

Actually, a story related to unexplainable and ostensibly rubbishy (or perhaps not) "stick-on" tweaks:

Back in 1987, Australia's famous racing driver Peter Brock was sacked by General Motors Holden for fitting what Brock dubbed an "Energy Polariser" to the cars he was upgrading on behalf of the company. The Energy Polariser was a small plastic box - about the size of a couple of stacked cigarette packets, filled with dubious materials and (apparently) crystals of some sort which was then affixed under the bonnet (hood) to the passenger firewall.

Brock for years had - up until then - a very lucrative arrangement whereby Holden would furnish him with bog-standard Commodore V8 sedans, upon which Brock would give them the full treatment and turn them into superb road cars that could hold their own with the very best touring cars around the world of that era. The arrangement was not only lucrative for Brock himself, but it got sales through the door at Holden and tapped into the export market as well.

But perhaps not surprisingly, Holden did not take kindly to their reputation being sullied by having their vehicles fitted with this dubious plastic box that came with a number of startling performance claims - perhaps the most alarming of which was the ability for the car to function perfectly well with tyre pressures that in any other circumstances would be considered dangerously low. Less alarming - though just as dubious - were claims of a better ride and a "smoother" revving engine.

I still have the contemporary car magazines from the era telling the whole sorry tale. Holden gave Brock an ultimatum to get rid of the plastic gadget and to submit his latest car modification (known as the "Director") for approval by Holden. This did not happen and Brock was infamously sacked. The funny thing was that in perhaps his worst ever subsequent year in his professional life (builder of Brock Commodores and Group A Racing Driver), he had the last laugh in October 1987 by winning the 1000 km Bathurst Race - in a Holden VL Commodore! (though perhaps the shine was taken off that a little by the fact that the two winning Cosworth Sierras were disqualified for illegal wheel arches and Brock's original car broke down early in the race - so he hitched a ride with that second - winning - car).

But one might say there are many audio tweaks that echo The Brock Polariser saga. Infact I seem to recall (but I cannot find any internet references to it) that at the time the claim was that the Polariser somehow re-aligned the constituent parts of the car on a sub-molecular basis which I also believe to be similar to some claims made by audio tweak gadget makers. Maybe even the makers of the various sticky things for all I know (there are at least two manufacturers making stickers in the form of audio tweaks).

But as Barry would already know, I wasn't really going to spout the efficacy of the WA Quantum stickers because the very same company that makes those stickers also makes a glass cube that you apparently stick in the listening room and your listening experience is transformed. Now I am all for experimentation and something like the WA Quantum stickers cost a paltry $10 with a full, money-back guarantee. But I think I have to draw the line at magic glass cubes that sit on the coffee table (well, for the present time, anyway). Or would that be plastic Polariser boxes sitting in car engine bays? Funny thing would be what if in 500 years time there was some way to actually scientifically measure what these things do or do not do? Brock perhaps then might have the last laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBdppylOFX4

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Better price doesn't necesarily buy you better quality. That's a costly audiophile myth and a money waster, as well as a constant source of delusion. The audiophile world is full of ridiculously overpriced items.

Of course. I wholeheartedly agree. Any of us could come up with a list of products that underperform relative to price and expectation and the opposite as well. My point was however, that by spending more money you will get improved performance, so long as you can navigate the pitfalls and buy the products that truly do perform better in their incremental price brackets and that also synergise well. No, I did not specifically say that but I did mean that (if only subconsciously). Avoiding the pitfalls of the failed upgrade are why forums like this exist, dealers exist, peer reviews and opinions exist, etc. I should also point out that when I am talking about upgrading, what I specifically had going around in my mind the notion of upgrading from NAIM to dCS or from Musical Fidelity to Esoteric (just as examples). Though I think there are much smaller steps that will produce excellent results as well.

I've never really been the fan of the more incremental upgrades people often make as I often feel they end up being little more than steps sideways and in the long run arguably not worthwhile. I am a fan of tweaks though, since they cost little comparatively speaking and the same tweaks can often be carried across into the new system in any case.

 

[bonzo75]

I should also point out that when I am talking about upgrading, what I specifically had going around in my mind the notion of upgrading from NAIM to dCS or from Musical Fidelity to Esoteric (just as examples).

These are not upgrades at all. I would argue they are sideways or downwards even. Now, irrespective of whether I am right or wrong, as long as you and I have different opinions and different knowledge about the items in question, price discovery will not be a straightforward process. In an efficient market, all investors have the same access to knowledge, which makes price discovery possible. This is just not the case in hifi. At best if a product is liquidly traded in the market, the two of us can agree what a benchmark price should be based on the last few trades of that product in that market. But then it has nothing to do with the weight we attribute to their sonics.

 

[bonzo75]

Let's leave hifi aside, do you guys think the costliest French restaurants or the Michelin 3s have the best food?

 

[JackD201]

Let's leave hifi aside, do you guys think the costliest French restaurants or the Michelin 3s have the best food?

Having done my share of rounds. I would have to say no. One thing I do know for sure is that Mike is not for sale.

 

[Al M.]

Of course. I wholeheartedly agree. Any of us could come up with a list of products that underperform relative to price and expectation and the opposite as well. My point was however, that by spending more money you will get improved performance, so long as you can navigate the pitfalls and buy the products that truly do perform better in their incremental price brackets and that also synergise well. No, I did not specifically say that but I did mean that (if only subconsciously). Avoiding the pitfalls of the failed upgrade are why forums like this exist, dealers exist, peer reviews and opinions exist, etc. I should also point out that when I am talking about upgrading, what I specifically had going around in my mind the notion of upgrading from NAIM to dCS or from Musical Fidelity to Esoteric (just as examples). Though I think there are much smaller steps that will produce excellent results as well.

I've never really been the fan of the more incremental upgrades people often make as I often feel they end up being little more than steps sideways and in the long run arguably not worthwhile. I am a fan of tweaks though, since they cost little comparatively speaking and the same tweaks can often be carried across into the new system in any case.

Agreed on everything, including incremental upgrades and tweaks. Regarding the latter, Peter A. and I just recently reported great benefits from using Deoxit Gold contact cleaner. As Peter puts it, "sweating the small stuff" is worth it.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Just about all upgrades in respect of high end are sideways...

 

[microstrip]

These are not upgrades at all. I would argue they are sideways or downwards even.(...)

You do not know the models, the systems or owners preferences. But you immediately knew they are not upgrades! IMHO if we do not manage to go out of the microcosmos of our own preferences or limitations we are not able to understand the potential of more expensive equipment.

 

[bonzo75]

You do not know the models, the systems or owners preferences. But you immediately knew they are not upgrades! IMHO if we do not manage to go out of the microcosmos of our own preferences or limitations we are not able to understand the potential of more expensive equipment.

Actually you took my sentence out of context. Read the full para

 

[FrantzM]

Just a side comment: while the best quality comes at a price, the other way around does not always hold. Better price doesn't necesarily buy you better quality. That's a costly audiophile myth and a money waster, as well as a constant source of delusion. The audiophile world is full of ridiculously overpriced items.

But I enjoyed your post overall.

Great Post. A position I have held for the longest time but failed to express it in such a limpid fashion. Thanks Al.


The High End Audio industry growth has found itself dependant on the perpetuation of this myth. Thus the grouping of items by "Price Class"rather than by performances, however subjective the evaluation of such can be.

 

[microstrip]

Actually you took my sentence out of context. Read the full para

These are not upgrades at all. I would argue they are sideways or downwards even. Now, irrespective of whether I am right or wrong, as long as you and I have different opinions and different knowledge about the items in question, price discovery will not be a straightforward process. In an efficient market, all investors have the same access to knowledge, which makes price discovery possible. This is just not the case in hifi. At best if a product is liquidly traded in the market, the two of us can agree what a benchmark price should be based on the last few trades of that product in that market. But then it has nothing to do with the weight we attribute to their sonics.

My apologies, but I do not see any other sense in the comment. You are just moving away from the fundamental question - does, in general, price paid by consumer relate with quality in the high-end. IMHO we are lacking a statistical analysis of data to go on arguing and we arrive to a dead end.

 

[bonzo75]

My apologies, but I do not see any other sense in the comment. You are just moving away from the fundamental question - does, in general, price paid by consumer relate with quality.

How do you define quality - differently from the way I do. Is there an S&P index for quality?

You probably know about the concepts of efficient markets. If you and I were to sit down to discuss a trade on a liquid priced blue chip stock, we will have all of the inside and outside information available. There will be a large number of buyers and sellers, all of which are required for price discovery in an efficient market. Without these factors, there is no market. The market for hifi is highly inefficient, and the number of sellers and buyers for a particular stock is limited, so the market is illiquid.

In such a market, price efficiency by definition does not exist and the market is not efficient. You and I cannot sit down at a table to discuss the value of a product. Unlike with a blue chip stock the knowledge that we both have is vastly different. We have different ways of garnering that knowledge. We might have different preferences. We define quality differently. And, most importantly, this is not a buy sell investment. So, there is no market. At best, if the product is liquidly traded, we have some past sales value to go by.

Regarding the above components, I do know esoteric k01 and vivaldi well and don't consider them upgrades. Had this been a buy sell investment, I would have valued them at whatever they are selling in the market at

 

[bonzo75]

To summarize, in a broken market, price will never correlate to quality. You pay for it based on your individual estimate

 

[microstrip]

(...) The High End Audio industry growth has found itself dependant on the perpetuation of this myth. Thus the grouping of items by "Price Class"rather than by performances, however subjective the evaluation of such can be.

Several european audio journals use weighting formulas for grading on performance, also including aspects such as quality for price. In general, more expensive items gets higher points. IMHO there is a too strong bias due to the preference of the magazine reviewers.

IMHO for practical purposes it is more useful to have items grouped by price classes than just by alphabetical order.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Having done my share of rounds. I would have to say no. One thing I do know for sure is that Mike is not for sale.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Several european audio journals use weighting formulas for grading on performance, also including aspects such as quality for price. In general, more expensive items gets higher points. IMHO there is a too strong bias due to the preference of the magazine reviewers.

IMHO for practical purposes it is more useful to have items grouped by price classes than just by alphabetical order.

I agree with this. In formulating my point of view I never had an expectation that anyone would simply spend more money and automatically expect to get better performance. I would have thought in a forum such as this, it would go without saying that extensive auditions of more expensive components are essential, apart from anything else such as soliciting peer reviews and opinions as well as independent professional ones. That is the only way to ensure upgrading will yield better performance. But I guess this did not go without saying.

HiFi World magazine in the UK, for example, will give a product a percentage grading but it is based on the price class. So that is a good starting point. If you buy an "85%" component for $4,000 then upgrade to an "85%" component for $10,000, you will get noticeably better performance, assuming you do the mandatory homework to confirm the component synergises correctly and delivers the upgraded performance. And if not, then I would have thought the blatantly obvious thing would be not to buy it and instead to look for something else of equal or higher percentage in the higher price class and start the audition process over again.

The bottom line is that in my opinion if someone spends more money on an upgrade and it does not deliver sonically, they only have themselves to blame, rather than blaming the actual concept itself of upgrading.