Do you use cables to 'tune' the sonics of your system?

[The Knife]

If cables are being used to "tune a system" because none of the components or cables are completely neutral, why is it that everybody seems to lust for the most expensive cable made by WireWorld, MIT, Nordost? If it is being used to tune the system, why doesn't a middle or lower priced cable sometimes do a better job? It seems impossible that every system needs the exact same most expensive cable to tune it. You never hear someone say, "I traded my Wireworld Platinum Eclipse for a Luna 6, and now the system sounds better than it ever did before? How can the most expensive cable be the best to tune everyone's system????????

Very very valid question!

 

[Tim Link]

If cables are being used to "tune a system" because none of the components or cables are completely neutral, why is it that everybody seems to lust for the most expensive cable made by WireWorld, MIT, Nordost? If it is being used to tune the system, why doesn't a middle or lower priced cable sometimes do a better job? It seems impossible that every system needs the exact same most expensive cable to tune it. You never hear someone say, "I traded my Wireworld Platinum Eclipse for a Luna 6, and now the system sounds better than it ever did before? How can the most expensive cable be the best to tune everyone's system????????

I can think of some possibilities. One is that most cables are NOT transparent in some difficult to measure but subtly audible way. In that case these expensive cables would be fixing something that almost every other cable gets wrong. Another possibility is that these cables are coloring the sound with a secret sauce that has a high appeal to many listeners, but it's a subtle effect such that the rest of the component line has to be relatively transparent to allow this subtle artistically developed flavor to be heard. I'm mostly skeptical of both of the possibilities, but not completely closed minded about it. Working on my own speakers with a digital crossover and EQ system, I've stumbled into some settings that produced some very evocative effects for me that were obviously colored but highly emotionally stirring. One I came up with by measuring each horn right at the mouth and EQ ing flat from there produced a sound that kept me listening and trying to understand until 3:00 a.m. Very striking effect that did not sound accurate in the way I have come to expect, but stirred my soul on a variety of music in a way that a more conventional response doesn't. Maybe in some musical sense it was more accurate. I suspect it was mostly a nostalgia effect, sounding like a more limited system that I grew up with and taking me back to my wonder years. A cable might be able to produce something like this. If it does, the effect should be measurable.

 

[Cellcbern]

?

Clarification: Of course some degree of 'tuning' is unavoidable, but do you actively try to change the balance of the system with cables, i.e. using a particular cable that tames the treble, boosts the midrange or bass, etc.

Irrelevant question. You use everything to tune your system. Whether cables or components the trick to system optimization is synergy-picking the cables and components (no difference) that work best together. This is particularly important when it comes to power cables, and let me point out (again) that arguably the world’s highest end, most no-compromise audio dealer-Audio Exotics, matches power cords to each individual component they sell. The idea that you get the best result from assembling a set of components and then adding cables that just “get out of the way” (none do) is folly, and presupposes that your assembled components produce a quality of sound that cannot be improved upon via cable selection - a ridiculous notion in my experience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Irrelevant question. You use everything to tune your system. Whether cables or components the trick to system optimization is synergy-picking the cables and components (no difference) that work best together. This is particularly important when it comes to power cables, and let me point out (again) that arguably the world’s highest end, most no-compromise audio dealer-Audio Exotics, matches power cords to each individual component they sell. The idea that you get the best result from assembling a set of components and then adding cables that just “get out of the way” (none do) is folly.

i disagree strongly. it's possible to have an approach that cables should get out of the way of the musical balance. with one exception. yet i also agree with some of your points.

and your cable approach of gets out of the way is somewhat dependant on the system and room being neutral to begin with. if it's sterile solid state, or warm tubes, then someplace a balancing mechanism will be needed. and many times it's cables that are called on for that. otherwise the music will lack agility and naturalness. i choose my electronics and speakers to be very neutral. darTZeel is known for not sounding like solid state, and not sounding like tubes. it's very neutral, yet micro dynamically alive and smooth on top. it does not need warming up, or leaning out. it needs cables to just get out of the way.

let's break this down into parts.

speakers cables--my speaker cables (Evolution Acoustics TRSC) are made of the same wire that my speakers are wired with. so you have ultimate speaker<->speaker cable synergy. it's like the amps are hard wired to the speakers. gets out of the way

interconnects between the preamp and amps---darTZeel has the 'zeel' 50 ohm interface; which is an impedance matching interface. it eliminates cable echo's that smear detail and effect phase. Herve Deletraz wrote an article in the Sept 2001 Stereophile about impedance and cables. read it. gets out of the way.

interconnects between the tape decks and preamp---50 ohm zeel. gets out of the way

power cables---Absolute Fidelity power cords, made by Gary Koh of Genesis Loudspeakers. there is a separate cable spec. design for sources, motors, and amplifiers. he designed these cables to neutralize the power cable effects on his speakers and electronics. i use 12 of them. these cables were not developed as a cable product. more just to improve the performance of his designs. get's out of the way

phono cables--this is the exception. cartridges, phono cables, SUT's and phono preamps are 'systems'. the signal is so tiny that neutrality is not possible. you are assembling these pieces in the most musical, artistic way to yield an end result. so no rules, it's a result situation.

bottom line. in my system i play a lot of large scale music. i've tried tube amplifiers in my system that get exposed as colored when they get pushed at high SPL's. they just cannot stay linear. in that same way cables reveal their shortcomings under high SPL's and doing scale and dynamics. and my room is highly tweaked to be able to hold together and stay organized when pushed. the proof of concept of getting the cables to get out of the way is when i'm pushing things and it still sounds organic and natural.

 

[Cellcbern]

i disagree strongly. it's possible to have an approach that cables should get out of the way of the musical balance. with one exception. yet i also agree with some of your points.

and your cable approach of gets out of the way is somewhat dependant on the system and room being neutral to begin with. if it's sterile solid state, or warm tubes, then someplace a balancing mechanism will be needed. and many times it's cables that are called on for that. otherwise the music will lack agility and naturalness. i choose my electronics and speakers to be very neutral. darTZeel is known for not sounding like solid state, and not sounding like tubes. it's very neutral, yet micro dynamically alive and smooth on top. it does not need warming up, or leaning out. it needs cables to just get out of the way.

let's break this down into parts.

speakers cables--my speaker cables (Evolution Acoustics TRSC) are made of the same wire that my speakers are wired with. so you have ultimate speaker<->speaker cable synergy. it's like the amps are hard wired to the speakers. gets out of the way

interconnects between the preamp and amps---darTZeel has the 'zeel' 50 ohm interface; which is an impedance matching interface. it eliminates cable echo's that smear detail and effect phase. Herve Deletraz wrote an article in the Sept 2001 Stereophile about impedance and cables. read it. gets out of the way.

interconnects between the tape decks and preamp---50 ohm zeel. gets out of the way

power cables---Absolute Fidelity power cords, made by Gary Koh of Genesis Loudspeakers. there is a separate cable spec. design for sources, motors, and amplifiers. he designed these cables to neutralize the power cable effects on his speakers and electronics. i use 12 of them. these cables were not developed as a cable product. more just to improve the performance of his designs. get's out of the way

phono cables--this is the exception. cartridges, phono cables, SUT's and phono preamps are 'systems'. the signal is so tiny that neutrality is not possible. you are assembling these pieces in the most musical, artistic way to yield an end result. so no rules, it's a result situation.

bottom line. in my system i play a lot of large scale music. i've tried tube amplifiers in my system that get exposed as colored when they get pushed at high SPL's. they just cannot stay linear. in that same way cables reveal their shortcomings under high SPL's and doing scale and dynamics. and my room is highly tweaked to be able to hold together and stay organized when pushed. the proof of concept of getting the cables to get out of the way is when i'm pushing things and it still sounds organic and natural.

That’s fine. We’ll have to agree to disagree. Maybe there's some semantics here, but the idea that a cable "gets out of the way" is questionable on its face since we only know what our components sound like via cables. You can't "choose your electronics and speakers to be very neutral" - you can only choose your electronics, speakers, and cables to be very neutral. It follows that intentionally or unintentionally you are using cables to tune your system, in your case for "neutrality" (which means different things to different people). Having different brands of speaker cables, interconnects, and power cables further suggests that you have used cables to tune your system. The fact that your speakers are wired internally with the same wire you are using as speaker cables doesn't mean that this wire is completely neutral or "gets out of the way". How would you know that? You may like this wire and feel that it gets the best out of the speakers/system, but it is also possible that you might one day try different speaker cables that shift the tonal balance yet improve the performance of your speakers. The same could happen if you changed your internal speaker wiring even if it was to different wire from the new speaker cables. If/when that happened would the new cables be getting even more out of the way than your current set or would they be creating better synergy with your speakers/system than the original wire? Ditto for the power cables and interconnects. There is by the way, nothing special about the Absolute Fidelity power cables. Other companies make power cords targeted for different uses. They were introduced with prices for sale just like other cables, and were reviewed like other cables without receiving the accolades that top tier cables receive. That they work well in your system is great. I have no doubt that there are other brands/models that would surpass them were you to try them. All of which makes me wonder what you would do with cables if you changed source, amplification, or speakers?

Beautiful system and listening room by the way.

 

[tima]

Neutral ? There is no neutral.

Let's not fool ourselves. Whatever you think is neutral is relative to whatever you're contrasting to it.

Cables ? In a sense a necessary evil. Ideally I'd like to try my components connected directly to one another, but they are not made that way. (please - no crackpot suggestions on how to do this.) We, as far as I know, cannot listen to our components without those pesky wires. I realize some (many?) people like cables, focus on cables, fret over cables and we all plug them in. So yes, cables are a part of a system and as such they inevitably have some impact on the sound of a system and the only way we know that is by changing them.

But do I intentionally "tune" my system by picking out cables? Well yes and no - it's somewhat a game of semantics. Yes, only in the sense that I intentionally use cables to make my system work. And no, because I'd rather hear my components - I like my components, I've spent half a lifetime getting to the components I like and I want to hear them not change them - I don't want to "tune" them. And again - as I said for those not yet on the cluetrain - we cannot hear anything without cables.

So where does that leave me? The best way I can describe where that leaves me and cables is, you pick: minimalism or less-than-ism. And yes these too can be understood as relative. Or, if you rather, I want no-add-ism. From my interconnects and speaker cables I do not want: warmth or extra 2nd-order harmonics to cover up the higher order ones, or other tonal type colorations such as lean-nes or angularity or smoothing; from cables I don't seek noise-suppression, dynamics, depth, dimensionality, and other audiophile words I don't seek. I do want a balance of that minimalism. I do want energy and natural vivacity and transparency like I hear in the concert hall, but not nordost type energy.

And It's fair to say I feel the same way about power cords.

 

[PeterA]

Neutral ? There is no neutral.

Let's not fool ourselves. Whatever you think is neutral is relative to whatever you're contrasting to it.

Cables ? In a sense a necessary evil. Ideally I'd like to try my components connected directly to one another, but they are not made that way. (please - no crackpot suggestions on how to do this.) We, as far as I know, cannot listen to our components without those pesky wires. I realize some (many?) people like cables, focus on cables, fret over cables and we all plug them in. So yes, cables are a part of a system and as such they inevitably have some impact on the sound of a system and the only way we know that is by changing them.

But do I intentionally "tune" my system by picking out cables? Well yes and no - it's somewhat a game of semantics. Yes, only in the sense that I intentionally use cables to make my system work. And no, because I'd rather hear my components - I like my components, I've spent half a lifetime getting to the components I like and I want to hear them not change them - I don't want to "tune" them. And again - as I said for those not yet on the cluetrain - we cannot hear anything without cables.

So where does that leave me? The best way I can describe where that leaves me and cables is, you pick: minimalism or less-than-ism. And yes these too can be understood as relative. Or, if you rather, I want no-add-ism. From my interconnects and speaker cables I do not want: warmth or extra 2nd-order harmonics to cover up the higher order ones, or other tonal type colorations such as lean-nes or angularity or smoothing; from cables I don't seek noise-suppression, dynamics, depth, dimensionality, and other audiophile words I don't seek. I do want a balance of that minimalism. I do want energy and natural vivacity and transparency like I hear in the concert hall, but not nordost type energy.

And It's fair to say I feel the same way about power cords.

Tim, this is an excellent summary. My approach is fairly similar. Over the years I’ve had different cables in my own system and I’ve done many cable comparisons in friends’ systems. Cables do make a difference and they can sound very different, so one makes choices. The choices are relative to other cables in the comparisons, but I always try to reference the sound of real music rather than what one cable does better than another. I used to have a difficult time with the distinction.

In the end, it comes down to which cables I think make my system sound as natural as possible. In this sense, it is not about comparing one cable to another but comparing a system sound with a particular cable to my memory of live music. This means discarding cables that enhance some aspect of the sound. But I also want cables that can reveal the information that the system is retrieving from the recording so the cables can’t seem to choke or restricted that information.

I used to think cables were a series of trade offs. One cable did something better than another but the other cable did something better also. And so it went and my choices always seemed like compromises. When I stopped focusing on how a cable or power cord enhanced something to draw my attention to it and I started focusing on balance and increasing information, that led to a more natural sound and it became easier to make choices.

It is an exercise in fine-tuning the system within the room context for a result that sounds right. The process has become easier over time and with increased exposure to alternatives.

 

[Rekmeyata]

?

Clarification: Of course some degree of 'tuning' is unavoidable, but do you actively try to change the balance of the system with cables, i.e. using a particular cable that tames the treble, boosts the midrange or bass, etc.

Sorry but that's not true. There has been blind test done to find out if people could hear the difference between very high-end cables vs mid-level cables, and they've done this with speaker cables and interconnects, and no one has ever been able to isolate the high-end cables from the other. These tests involve equal lengths of cables, you could lose some with very long cables, but that has to do with impedance and not the price of the cable. This isn't anything different then going out and buying an extension cord for an appliance, depending on the appliance and how long of run you need to power the appliance, then you need to the correct gauge so the motor on the appliance won't overheat. One of the guys that did these tests even offered a million dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between cables, no one has won the money.

This stuff is all over the internet too, many tests have been done, and none have ever produced a winning cable.

Do speaker cables make a difference? Reviving the coathanger test (soundguys.com)

There are some websites that claim they do, but those websites, like Audiophile Review, have cable sponsors, they're not going to tell the truth or they will lose those sponsors, and sponsors is money, and money is their livelihood.

 

[tima]

Tim, this is an excellent summary.

Thank you, Peter. That has been my view for years, however I only realized it recently with David's help. It is funny how certain sonic evaluations I held for years fell like scales from my eyes overnight. Outside the world of audiophile cables there are so many options that I did not know where to start.

 

[microstrip]

Neutral ? There is no neutral.

Let's not fool ourselves. Whatever you think is neutral is relative to whatever you're contrasting to it.

Tim,

I fully agree with you.

Cables ? In a sense a necessary evil. Ideally I'd like to try my components connected directly to one another, but they are not made that way. (please - no crackpot suggestions on how to do this.)

Why avoiding an interesting suggestion? I have done it with amplifier monoblocks and speakers - and preferred the sound using adequate cables.

I know that this is not a DIY forum, but in the past I carried several experiences using extremely short IC cables - about 10 cm - and they were less different than the typical 1m or longer cables I use. Should I consider the short ones more neutral than the typical high-end cables I own?

.

Those pesky wires. I realize some (many?) people like cables, focus on cables, fret over cables and we all plug them in. So yes, cables are a part of a system and as such they inevitably have some impact on the sound of a system and the only way we know that is by changing them.

Can we know what cables you are currently using?

But do I intentionally "tune" my system by picking out cables? Well yes and no - it's somewhat a game of semantics. Yes, only in the sense that I intentionally use cables to make my system work. And no, because I'd rather hear my components - I like my components, I've spent half a lifetime getting to the components I like and I want to hear them not change them - I don't want to "tune" them. And again - as I said for those not yet on the cluetrain - we cannot hear anything without cables.

Involuntary guilty?

So where does that leave me? The best way I can describe where that leaves me and cables is, you pick: minimalism or less-than-ism. And yes these too can be understood as relative. Or, if you rather, I want no-add-ism. From my interconnects and speaker cables I do not want: warmth or extra 2nd-order harmonics to cover up the higher order ones, or other tonal type colorations such as lean-nes or angularity or smoothing; from cables I don't seek noise-suppression, dynamics, depth, dimensionality, and other audiophile words I don't seek. I do want a balance of that minimalism. I do want energy and natural vivacity and transparency like I hear in the concert hall, but not nordost type energy.

Yes, we do not seek, but these qualities appear in our systems and we love them. Audiophiles seek, experts collect ... In the end, as you say it is all semantics.

And It's fair to say I feel the same way about power cords.

Easy to say when we do not carry DIY experiments or use a very reduced number of equipments. IMHO power cables are even more intriguing than signal cables.

 

[Cellcbern]

Sorry but that's not true. There has been blind test done to find out if people could hear the difference between very high-end cables vs mid-level cables, and they've done this with speaker cables and interconnects, and no one has ever been able to isolate the high-end cables from the other. These tests involve equal lengths of cables, you could lose some with very long cables, but that has to do with impedance and not the price of the cable. This isn't anything different then going out and buying an extension cord for an appliance, depending on the appliance and how long of run you need to power the appliance, then you need to the correct gauge so the motor on the appliance won't overheat. One of the guys that did these tests even offered a million dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between cables, no one has won the money.

This stuff is all over the internet too, many tests have been done, and none have ever produced a winning cable.

Do speaker cables make a difference? Reviving the coathanger test (soundguys.com)

There are some websites that claim they do, but those websites, like Audiophile Review, have cable sponsors, they're not going to tell the truth or they will lose those sponsors, and sponsors is money, and money is their livelihood.

Nonsense. Blind tests don’t work fo

Sorry but that's not true. There has been blind test done to find out if people could hear the difference between very high-end cables vs mid-level cables, and they've done this with speaker cables and interconnects, and no one has ever been able to isolate the high-end cables from the other. These tests involve equal lengths of cables, you could lose some with very long cables, but that has to do with impedance and not the price of the cable. This isn't anything different then going out and buying an extension cord for an appliance, depending on the appliance and how long of run you need to power the appliance, then you need to the correct gauge so the motor on the appliance won't overheat. One of the guys that did these tests even offered a million dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between cables, no one has won the money.

This stuff is all over the internet too, many tests have been done, and none have ever produced a winning cable.

Do speaker cables make a difference? Reviving the coathanger test (soundguys.com)

There are some websites that claim they do, but those websites, like Audiophile Review, have cable sponsors, they're not going to tell the truth or they will lose those sponsors, and sponsors is money, and money is their livelihood

 

[Cellcbern]

Nonsense. Blind tests don’t work fo

Blind tests are spotty at best for audio, and double-blind tests don't work for audio at all. Put no stock in them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . produced a sound that kept me listening . . . stirred my soul on a variety of music in a way that a more conventional response doesn't. Maybe in some musical sense it was more accurate. . . .

This sounds like highly desirable music "magic" to me!

 

[The Knife]

If cables are being used to "tune a system" because none of the components or cables are completely neutral, why is it that everybody seems to lust for the most expensive cable made by WireWorld, MIT, Nordost? If it is being used to tune the system, why doesn't a middle or lower priced cable sometimes do a better job? It seems impossible that every system needs the exact same most expensive cable to tune it. You never hear someone say, "I traded my Wireworld Platinum Eclipse for a Luna 6, and now the system sounds better than it ever did before? How can the most expensive cable be the best to tune everyone's system????????

It struck me, an acquaintance of mine, with a 250k USD system opted for the next best speaker cables (and accordingly the second most expensive in a range) from a certain manufacturer. He is meticulous in his choices and can afford the top range, but felt after thorough auditing that the next most expensive cables, gave the sonic performance he was striving for.

 

[tima]

Why avoiding an interesting suggestion? I have done it with amplifier monoblocks and speakers - and preferred the sound using adequate cables.

Yes, I know people have tried using no or very short cables. But, imo, it is not practical and frankly I'm not that much interested in moving my equipment around to experiment.

Can we know what cables you are currently using?

Among the signal cables / wires I've owned or reviewed over the years are: Kimber Kables, Canare, Radio Shack, Anti-Cables, Kondo, Monster, Shunyata, Alpha-Core Goertz, LessLoss, Duelund, Audioquest, Mogami, Silver Audio, FMS. I suspect I forgot some other brands I've compared. Now I use v. inexpensive signal cables and CC power cords.

Involuntary guilty?

?? Of what?

Yes, we do not seek, but these qualities appear in our systems and we love them.

Okay, perhaps some to the extent of what I hear listening to live acoustic music. But I don't look to cables for those attributes. I'd rather buy the "right for me" components and not need to tune them with wires. Why not buy the wires first then buy components to tune those - heh.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, I know people have tried using no or very short cables. But, imo, it is not practical and frankly I'm not that much interested in moving my equipment around to experiment.

Yes, I agree. But unless you have a reference (no cables) you will be always just guessing. I tried no cables and found I preferred good non-neutral (different from no cable) cables.

Among the signal cables / wires I've owned or reviewed over the years are: Kimber Kables, Canare, Radio Shack, Anti-Cables, Kondo, Monster, Shunyata, Alpha-Core Goertz, LessLoss, Duelund, Audioquest, Mogami, Silver Audio, FMS. I suspect I forgot some other brands I've compared. Now I use v. inexpensive signal cables and CC power cords.

Can we know what are exactly the inexpensive ICs and speaker cables you are currently using?

Okay, perhaps some to the extent of what I hear listening to live acoustic music. But I don't look to cables for those attributes. I'd rather buy the "right for me" components and not need to tune them with wires. Why not buy the wires first then buy components to tune those - heh.

So you are telling us that only recently you managed to buy the "right for you" components?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes, I agree. But unless you have a reference (no cables) you will be always just guessing. I tried no cables and found I preferred good non-neutral (different from no cable) cables.

Me too , listening without cables is just plain boring

 

[Cellcbern]

I have to assume that it is the work/annoyance of having to try three or more different types of cables in various combinations in order to arrive at a good match with your other components, that leads to so many silly and sometimes contradictory posts on the subject. Buying sources, amps, and speakers is easier, and provides a greater sense of completion. At the end of the day however cables are components like sources, amps and speakers, and you can only know what your sources, amps, and speakers sound like via cables. Dismissal of the role and importance of cables and this work/annoyance regularly leads to sub-optimal cable choices and a lack of system synergy. In my experience cables are a weak link in many systems.

 

[tima]

unless you have a reference (no cables) you will be always just guessing. I tried no cables and found I preferred good non-neutral (different from no cable) cables.

I understand what you are saying Francisco. However, since no cables is not a viable option I'm not sure it can be a reference. I can claim anything as a reference as long as it is repeatable. X vs not-X or X vs Y.

Can we know what are exactly the inexpensive ICs and speaker cables you are currently using?

Not today. For now I consider myself under NDA.

So you are telling us that only recently you managed to buy the "right for you" components

No, I did not say anything like that.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Not today. For now I consider myself under NDA.

Hard to debate sound qualities of NDA ... Can we know what were the ICs and speaker cables previous to NDA?

This is a cable thread and IMHO the only real references we have to consolidate our semantics in this hobby is gear we know well.