Do Speakers That Measure Great Always Sound Great

[mep]

Mark,

I thought someone had given you the "talk" about calling those 1-900 numbers....!

Lee

Well Lee, I am glad to see you got the point I was trying to make. I used to work with a woman who sounded like she could have made lots of money as a 1-900 worker. I am sure that lots of guys who heard her voice on the phone were having impure thoughts. Too bad she could scare a hungry bull dog off a meat truck.

 

[Albertporter]

Strong statements, especially concerning the last three manufacturers you mention. Unfair , methink

Have you ever stood in a room and discussed audio with the guys from Boulder? I'm guessing you have not as my experience and that of Caesar are near identical.

 

[Elliot G.]

The answer is really simple Steve, frequency response is not the criteria our brains use to tell us we are blown away. It helps in the set up to get rid of issues but it is only a part of the story. YOu can have a speaker measure well and change cables, or amps or preamp and the sound changes however the in room response of the speaker won't. Why?

 

[silviajulieta]

As I said, reviewers have to earn credibility. Whether or not you like them, will in the long run, depend upon whether you agree with what they have to say and mirror one's audio experience. That said, the biggest quality a reviewer can bring to the table, like a baseball umpire, is consistency (though we know consistency isn't a virtue when losing 30 games in a row ). After all, even a broken clock is right twice a day and see a lot of that out there too. But returning to the umpire example (or pretty much refereeing/judging in any sport), it's not that umpire calls every pitch in the strike zone a strike; that would be nice, but every umpire has a different strike zone. But the umpire must be consistent in calling every low inside pitch a strike. That allows the batter to adjust to the pitcher. But if the umpire calls it a strike one pitch and a ball another pitch, then the batter just shakes their head Same goes for audio.

I don't know what you are refering ( ???????? ) on what I posted to Jeffrey. I'm talking of the importance to learn and the attitude to learn, that's all.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[caesar]

With regards to speakers, for example, we do know how many measurements correlate with sound quality. There has been a ton of research, which guys like Sean Olive, among others, have studied and written about extensively. What I have found is that many audiophiles don't want to dive into these subjects and learn. One of the most important exercises I've conducted for myself, and which has been extremely educational, has been measuring in-room FR and then trying to correlate what I measure with what I hear. I've done this with about 20 speakers over the past four years and it has made me a better listener: I'm able to hear tonal abberations much easier now.

I'm not suggesting that all the answers exist within our current measurements, but there is a lot there for those that want to explore it.

Please explain more about this....

Here are the measurements for a $349 speaker:http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/908polk/index4.html
Here are the measurements for a $100K speaker: http://stereophile.com/floorloudspe...rence_ii_professional_loudspeaker/index4.html


Sure the graphs look a bit different, but they definitely look more similar than different. Is there $100K difference in sound quality that you can gather from just looking at the graphs?

 

[silviajulieta]

Have you ever heard individuals from these companies speak in person? I am speaking from experience. They sure disrespect the audiophile.

I am sure I am not the only one who has heard this. Some quotes I have heard in person:

"We don't voice our equipment. We jsut design the best circuits."

"Cables are BS"

"If you like the sound of another amp that has similar measurements, it is because you are playing it a higher volume."

"Our amp has the best measurements. Therefore it is the BEST!"

Dear Caesar: +++++ " "We don't voice our equipment. We jsut design the best circuits." " +++++ IMHO this person could and can be right: if you makes a good design ( no price object. ) and a good execution design, then you don't need to voice the equipment. Remember that these kind of designer not only are fully skill designers but they know in deep how the passive and active parts performs.

+++++ " "If you like the sound of another amp that has similar measurements, it is because you are playing it a higher volume." +++++ , IMHO today two similar designs with the same measurements sounds the same and if like this person said you like more one than the other then could be because you don't match the SPL when you heard each one.

I know that is dificult to understand these kind of sentences when we are not experienced designers or in deep technical oriented persons.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[caesar]

Dear Caesar: +++++ " "We don't voice our equipment. We jsut design the best circuits." " +++++ IMHO this person could and can be right: if you makes a good design ( no price object. ) and a good execution design, then you don't need to voice the equipment. Remember that these kind of designer not only are fully skill designers but they know in deep how the passive and active parts performs.

+++++ " "If you like the sound of another amp that has similar measurements, it is because you are playing it a higher volume." +++++ , IMHO today two similar designs with the same measurements sounds the same and if like this person said you like more one than the other then could be because you don't match the SPL when you heard each one.

I know that is dificult to understand these kind of sentences when we are not experienced designers or in deep technical oriented persons.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

The reality, however, is that I have listened to this equipment (Boulder, Sanders) and it sounds inferior to other equipment to my ears. Furthermore, Boulder and Sanders amps even sound inferior when Boulder and Sanders are played at higher volumes than the equipment they are being compared to...

 

[FrantzM]

Please explain more about this....

Here are the measurements for a $349 speaker:http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/908polk/index4.html
Here are the measurements for a $100K speaker: http://stereophile.com/floorloudspe...rence_ii_professional_loudspeaker/index4.html


Sure the graphs look a bit different, but they definitely look more similar than different. Is there $100K difference in sound quality that you can gather from just looking at the graphs?

Caesar

I am certain Jeff Fritz can answer for himself but nowhere in his posts has he stated that FR are all that's needed top judge a speaker ... or any component for that matter. On a different subject: The $100K should not be an inference of the superiority of one speaker or component over another ... I have personally experience one particular speaker which would put to shame many competitor costing several multiple of its price: The Magneplanar MG 20.1.
My honest problem and one I have not been able to reconcile with is that particular speaker which I have owned doesn't measure well at all but... Does it sound real? Does it sound good ? Does it sound accurate? Oh Yeah, Yeah, Yeah !! ... more so than many very expensive speakers one would care to compare it with ... and in some areas, nonpareil to this day ...

 

[audioguy]

FR is just one component to measure: Dispersion characerisitics, step response, impusle response, phase response, etc. I have a $90 pair of Radio Shack speakers that measure (in room) VERY close to my old Dunlavys. You will have to trust me on this: The sound NOTHING alike. NOTHING!

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Caesar

I am certain Jeff Fritz can answer for himself but nowhere in his posts has he stated that FR are all that's needed to judge a speaker ... or any component for that matter.

Thanks Frantz. In fact I just recently wrote an article titled, lo and behold, "Frequency Response Isn’t the Only Thing." Direct link here: http://ultraaudio.com/opinion/20100501.htm

For some reason it is common to read "measurements are important" and interpret that as "measurements are all that matter and I can pick components from specs alone."

As I've said over and over, use all the info and experiences at your disposal to assess a product.

 

[DWR]

Ok I am going to put my 2 cents worth in here and thats probably just what it's worth too. This is another one of those arguments that will never be settled, and it is because the whole topic is so subjective. The perfect example is in Franz's earlier post about his speakers not measuring well, the bottom line is that the speakers in his room sound good to HIM and that is the measurement that really means the most doesn't it fellas? I go to the local audio shows here in the Detroit area which is really one show a year but has some pretty nice equipment every year, and I have experienced this numerous times at the show and I know you have to take into account that the rooms at a show are not great to say the least but all the systems are using the same rooms pretty much. I will sit and listen to a system and think to myself man that sounds like crap while the guys sitting in front or behind me are saying how good it sounds, thats the subjective part I am talking about, who's wrong and who's right, neither or both! Currently I own Geddes Abbey 12A speakers, they measure quite well and to ME they are the best sounding speakers I have had in MY system, now someone else may walk into my room and listen to them and think wow that sounds like crap, because thats how THEY perceive it. My last two pairs of speakers were Martin Logan Ascent i and Orion++, and in the end I couldn't live long term with the sound of either speaker, other people have those speakers and just love the sound and they measure quite differently. Well there is my 2 cents worth fellas take it for what it's worth.

Dan

 

[Randall Smith]

I personally believe there are many audiophiles out there that do not know what good sound is. Now thats not to say that I am special because I do know, but many people have bad sound as their reference. I was one of those people many years ago. I had my sub turned up way too much in my two-channel system and thought that it sounded great. I wasn't wrong, to me it did sound great, but it also wasn't right. Once a friend helped me balance the sub out- I felt I was missing something. I thought it sounded horrible! So, I turned the sub back up. In the end, I saw the light. I know have a pretty linear, neutral sounding system- and to me- thats right. i feel thats where proper exposure and a proper audio education comes in to play. However, again, no one is right or wrong, its all subjective. And since we are guys, we will argue about it until we go deaf.

 

[Steve Williams]

However, again, no one is right or wrong, its all subjective. And since we are guys, we will argue about it until we go deaf.

Say again, i cant hear you?

 

[DWR]

Excellent points Randall, it kind of goes along with what I listen for when auditioning speakers now. In the past when I listened to speakers I would get "sucked into" the phenomenon of man the midrange clarity really jumped out at me, that sounds great (thats how the Logans hooked me) Just to find out after listening to the speakers over the long term and realizing that I could never integrate the bass with the panels to my liking. So now I try and listen for a speaker that has nothing jump out at me like the bass response or the midrange response, I look for something that I walk away from and think well that showed me nothing special. It is that speaker that I go back and listen to again, I know it sounds counter intuitive but it works well for me, the two speakers that I have found to sound this way to me are the ones I now own and the Focal line of speakers. The last show I went to I could have sat and listened to the system set up with Focal 1027BE speakers powered by a Cambridge Soundworks class D amp all day (pretty wild for a guy who listens to tubes huh)

 

[FrantzM]

However, again, no one is right or wrong, its all subjective. And since we are guys, we will argue about it until we go deaf.

Not a point of view I subscribe to... Yes it is subjective to a certain extent ..Let's take some absurd example : someone comes here and declare that mp3 sounds better than everything else or that his car system, the one with the piezo tweeter sounds better than Steve's system ... .. He will be properly chastised ... We can then move to less absurd examples... "The Linn Sondek LP 12 has the best bass of any turntable" is a statement that will elicit similar reactions ... There is a reference...

I agree with Randall Smith 100% .. There is such a thing as exposure, proper exposure.. If one has never heard how things sound like ..One become accustomed to a "type" of sound and this by the way is a trap that wait for any audiophile .. . There is a learning process in this hobby as in many ...

 

[Randall Smith]

let me restate that quote in a different way- no one is right or wrong in their personal tastes/opinion. unfortunately, when personal opinion is based on something that isn't real or something that is completely wrong, then comes the problem.

 

[caesar]

.. There is such a thing as exposure, proper exposure.. If one has never heard how things sound like ..One become accustomed to a "type" of sound and this by the way is a trap that wait for any audiophile .. . There is a learning process in this hobby as in many ...

Great point. That is why I started the other thread

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...eed-to-be-educated-to-appreciate-certain-gear

 

[Ron Party]

Caesar, let me throw this out there. The question you raised to start that thread could be rephrased as follows: "Do audiophiles need to be re-educated ...".

An argument can be made that the relatively quick dismissal of pro speaker such as Genelec, JBL, etc., by *some* audiophiles would suggest just that.

 

[silviajulieta]

The reality, however, is that I have listened to this equipment (Boulder, Sanders) and it sounds inferior to other equipment to my ears. Furthermore, Boulder and Sanders amps even sound inferior when Boulder and Sanders are played at higher volumes than the equipment they are being compared to...

Dear Caesar: You can like it or not and there are many reasons for either way. My point I'm refering was: ++++ if you makes a good design ( no price object. ) and a good execution design, then you don't need to voice the equipment. " mainly on electronics.

I'm talking in wide way and not in specific to Boulder or other kind of design. IMHO the quality of the item design and the quality of its execution is what makes a good audio item and if the designer has to makes a voicing or not.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Caesar, let me throw this out there. The question you raised to start that thread could be rephrased as follows: "Do audiophiles need to be re-educated ...".

An argument can be made that the relatively quick dismissal of pro speaker such as Genelec, JBL, etc., by *some* audiophiles would suggest just that.

Dear Ron: What if I ask to you or any other person in this forum: +++ Hey do you think that you need to be re-educated on HE audio? ++++ what do you think the persons can answer? which one could be your personal answer?

Randall " touch " a " delicate " whole subject: " which are our each one audio/music references? what means for each one of us: good sound, mediocre sound or excellent sound? why? how are we sure that our opinion match a " standards " on what is good or bad sound? exist those standards?

By coincidence and before Randall post I posted to Jeffrey ( post #99. ):

++++ " this means you LEARN and each one of us that want to grow up and that want to improve the quality performance of our two channels home audio system need LEARN and take day by day " actions " to LEARN everywhere on everything related to audio and MUSIC.

As better our overall knowledge as better our audio chooses and as better our systems quality performance. Our each one " power " as is the each one reviewer power or each one designer/manufacturer power is directly related to each one overall know how level and IMHO this means an each one attitude to LEARN with humility. IMHO No one knows everything on every single audio and MUSIC topic, there is no " expert of experts " persons out there. +++++


Learning means to me: education. The real " problem " on this learn/education subject is IMHO to attain/get the RIGHT education through a RIGHT learning process. Each one of us have our each one level in an Audio Learning Curve. We are what we learn through our audio/music years and many of us think we are near the top of that ALC and maybe many of you are really at the top but many of us that could think we are near the top in reality are far away because what we learn was not always the RIGHT audio/music Education.

A very complex whole subject for say the least. No one of us like that any one questioning our self know how, it does not matters our knowledge level.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.