Do Speakers That Measure Great Always Sound Great

[Jeff Fritz]

Too obvious for you guys to be baited

Amplifier A is a class AB Kenwood for cars, about $99.00.

Amplifier B is tube Lamm, about $13K

Bet the Kenwood sounds better since the specifications are so superior.

Point is, specifications are only a tiny piece of the puzzle. Shopping for great sound requires experiences and common sense as well as long term listening.

Do you personally know any audioophile that buys on specs alone? I don't. Being an audiophile by definition means that you listen. The Lamm/Kenwood example seems like a straw man to me.

But here's another question: would you buy a piece of gear where the component had no specs because the designer never measured it?

 

[Gregadd]

Do you personally know any audiophile that buys on specs alone? I don't.


I don't know if they buy on spec's alone, They sure argue on spec's alone. We all know what test they want to use to prove themselves right.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Do you personally know any audiophile that buys on specs alone? I don't.


I don't know if they buy on spec's alone, They sure argue on spec's alone. We all know what test they want to use to prove themselves right.

I'm really not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

When I see folks arguing specs many times it is because some specs are often inflated or just flat out misleading. To me, that's when we need to argue specs!

 

[mep]

Do you personally know any audioophile that buys on specs alone? I don't. Being an audiophile by definition means that you listen. The Lamm/Kenwood example seems like a straw man to me.

But here's another question: would you buy a piece of gear where the component had no specs because the designer never measured it?

Jeff-I think we have several people on this forum that would make their purchasing decision by reading the spec sheets. Like Greg said, they damn sure love to argue about them.

 

[mep]

Here is one other thing I know. I have never met a pretty woman who voice sounds ugly on the phone. However, I damn sure have met some ugly women who sound hot on the phone. The moral to the story is don't buy something based on the specs. You may be in for a horrible surprise.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff-I think we have several people on this forum that would make their purchasing decision by reading the spec sheets. Like Greg said, they damn sure love to argue about them.

My process is to simply use everything at my disposal before making a buying decision: listen, dissect measurements (as opposed to specs), examine the physical construction, use anecdotal evidence from other owners and dealers, and then listen two or three more times. For me it has to pass all these tests or I keep looking.

Back to specs: I don't like it when specs are WAY out of line. Not within experimental error, but flat out distortions of the truth, either purposefully or out of incompetence. Is that opinion counter to what anyone here thinks?

 

[mep]

Jeff-I find your response and approach to be very well reasoned and I agree with what you said. And how can anyone argue with the logic of your "back to specs" thought? I can't.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

OK, egregious concrete example:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/coincident_total_eclipse.htm

Look at the claimed sensitivity in the review, then . . .

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/coincident_total_eclipse/

Again, why would anyone researching this product not want to look at the measurements, too?

 

[RBFC]

Here is one other thing I know. .... However, I damn sure have met some ugly women who sound hot on the phone. ....

Mark,

I thought someone had given you the "talk" about calling those 1-900 numbers....!

Lee

 

[caesar]

Do you personally know any audioophile that buys on specs alone? I don't. Being an audiophile by definition means that you listen. The Lamm/Kenwood example seems like a straw man to me.

But here's another question: would you buy a piece of gear where the component had no specs because the designer never measured it?

Unfortunately, I do know a few. I also know a few manufacturers that think their stuff sounds superior because it measures great. A few that come to mind are Bryston, Sanders Sound Systems, and Boulder. All of these guys think audiophiles are just crazies and idiots.

 

[FrantzM]

Unfortunately, I do know a few. I also know a few manufacturers that think their stuff sounds superior because it measures great. A few that come to mind are Bryston, Sanders Sound Systems, and Boulder. All of these guys think audiophiles are just crazies and idiots.

Strong statements, especially concering the last three manufacturers you mention. Unfair , methink

 

[caesar]

Strong statements, especially concering the last three manufacturers you mention. Unfair , methink

Have you ever heard individuals from these companies speak in person? I am speaking from experience. They sure disrespect the audiophile.

I am sure I am not the only one who has heard this. Some quotes I have heard in person:

"We don't voice our equipment. We jsut design the best circuits."

"Cables are BS"

"If you like the sound of another amp that has similar measurements, it is because you are playing it a higher volume."

"Our amp has the best measurements. Therefore it is the BEST!"

 

[FrantzM]

Caesar

My post was about these manufacturers in particular ...
I don't believe, I have yet met a component manufacturer who doesn't think his wares are the best ...
I am an audiophile, a cable carrying-long-time-Since-I-was-5 years-old-born-listening-to-ONE-Quad-ESL 57 type of audiophile ... My views on cables are quite known here in this forum and I am not alone ...

 

[Old Listener]

Have you ever heard individuals from these companies speak in person? I am speaking from experience. They sure disrespect the audiophile.

I am sure I am not the only one who has heard this. Some quotes I have heard in person:

"We don't voice our equipment. We jsut design the best circuits."
...

You're right. Voicing such opinions is disrespectful of audiophiles. How dare they!

Bill

 

[caesar]

Caesar

My post was about these manufacturers in particular ...
I don't believe, I have yet met a component manufacturer who doesn't think his wares are the best ...
I am an audiophile, a cable carrying-long-time-Since-I-was-5 years-old-born-listening-to-ONE-Quad-ESL 57 type of audiophile ... My views on cables are quite known here in this forum and I am not alone ...

I think whatever comes around goes around. If they are free to express their opinions, which they freely do in public seminars, why is it unfair for others to express their opinions.

If people love their gear and want to buy it, they should feel free to do so. Personally, I am put off by their closed minded-ness.

PS. I still think the Quad 57 is among the best!

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear friends: IMHO the subject of measurements/specs against quality performance is really complex and with several sides that go from the people that not only does not cares on measurements/specs but that does not even understand it and that buy an audio item because he likes what he heard even if what he heard is heavy colored with high distortions and far away with " true music ", these kind of people has low profile and normally does not attend to live music events.

In the other side/extreme there are the people that cares about music and that understand the whole subject of music/sound reproduction and that cares about accuracy and distortions/noise/colorations and that have very high targets on what they want to hear. These people cares about measurements/specs too and have a deep knowledge on the whole subject. To this side belongs the discerning audiophiles.

Between those extremes there are a lot of people in between with so many differences that is almost imposible to be more specific.

To be more complex we have the subject of: bad, good or excellent measurements/specs, which are the measurements/specs standards? whom determine what is good or bad measurement/spec for an specific audio link?, we need standards/reference to make comparisons.

We all know that measurements/specs can't tell us how an audio link/item will sounds but those measurements/specs can tell us how accurate, distorted, colored or noisy can be that audio item and those measurements/specs can tell us too if that audio item could integrate " fine " in our home audio system.

IMHO a HE audio item (any ) in today times that was/is well/good designed and that the design was/is well/good executed always will measures good and always will sounds good.

Could be that this good designed/executed audio item do not like you but IMHO not because sounds bad but for many other reasons, example: maybe there are audio links in our system that are " poor designs or not so good like we think " items and that with a " top " design shows its " cooper " and instead that we analyze what is in reallity happening we just say that the new item sounds bad, this " situation " is very common/often.

I think that we need to ttry to understand measuremenst/specs and where those measurements/specs are important when we choose to buy audio items.

Unfortunatelly we don't have the kind of measurements/specs/models that could explain how an audio item can sounds, so we have to hear and made a research before buy and part of that research IMHO should be how the audio item measures/specs.

So Steve, IMHO a well/good designed and well/good design execution speaker that measures great will sounds great.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Unfortunatelly we don't have the kind of measurements/specs/models that could explain how an audio item can sounds, so we have to hear and made a research before buy and part of that research IMHO should be how the audio item measures/specs.

So Steve, IMHO a well designed and well design execution speaker that measures great will sounds great.

regards and enjoy the music

With regards to speakers, for example, we do know how many measurements correlate with sound quality. There has been a ton of research, which guys like Sean Olive, among others, have studied and written about extensively. What I have found is that many audiophiles don't want to dive into these subjects and learn. One of the most important exercises I've conducted for myself, and which has been extremely educational, has been measuring in-room FR and then trying to correlate what I measure with what I hear. I've done this with about 20 speakers over the past four years and it has made me a better listener: I'm able to hear tonal abberations much easier now.

I'm not suggesting that all the answers exist within our current measurements, but there is a lot there for those that want to explore it.

 

[Ethan Winer]

^^^ Hear hear!

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Jeffrey: I was ready to edit my post when I read your latest one.

+++++ " What I have found is that many audiophiles don't want to dive into these subjects and learn. One of the most important exercises I've conducted for myself, and which has been extremely educational, has been measuring in-room FR and then trying to correlate what I measure with what I hear. I've done this with about 20 speakers over the past four years and it has made me a better listener: I'm able to hear tonal abberations much easier now. " +++++

this means you LEARN and each one of us that want to grow up and that want to improve the quality performance of our two channels home audio system need LEARN and take day by day " actions " to LEARN everywhere on everything related to audio and MUSIC.

As better our overall knowledge as better our audio chooses and as better our systems quality performance. Our each one " power " as is the each one reviewer power or each one designer/manufacturer power is directly related to each one overall know how level and IMHO this means an each one attitude to LEARN with humility. IMHO No one knows everything on every single audio and MUSIC topic, there is no " expert of experts " persons out there.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Dear Jeffrey: I was ready to edit my post when I read your latest one.

+++++ " What I have found is that many audiophiles don't want to dive into these subjects and learn. One of the most important exercises I've conducted for myself, and which has been extremely educational, has been measuring in-room FR and then trying to correlate what I measure with what I hear. I've done this with about 20 speakers over the past four years and it has made me a better listener: I'm able to hear tonal abberations much easier now. " +++++

this means you LEARN and each one of us that want to grow up and that want to improve the quality performance of our two channels home audio system need LEARN and take day by day " actions " to LEARN everywhere on everything related to audio and MUSIC.

As better our overall knowledge as better our audio chooses and as better our systems quality performance. Our each one " power " as is the each one reviewer power or each one designer/manufacturer power is directly related to each one overall know how level and IMHO this means an each one attitude to LEARN with humility. IMHO No one knows everything on every single audio and MUSIC topic, there is no " expert of experts " persons out there.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

As I said, reviewers have to earn credibility. Whether or not you like them, will in the long run, depend upon whether you agree with what they have to say and mirror one's audio experience. That said, the biggest quality a reviewer can bring to the table, like a baseball umpire, is consistency (though we know consistency isn't a virtue when losing 30 games in a row ). After all, even a broken clock is right twice a day and see a lot of that out there too. But returning to the umpire example (or pretty much refereeing/judging in any sport), it's not that umpire calls every pitch in the strike zone a strike; that would be nice, but every umpire has a different strike zone. But the umpire must be consistent in calling every low inside pitch a strike. That allows the batter to adjust to the pitcher. But if the umpire calls it a strike one pitch and a ball another pitch, then the batter just shakes their head Same goes for audio.