Disturbing "Sonic Trend" showing up on most all current "Big Buck" systems!

[Ronm1]

One man's accurate system may be another's bright and shrill.

How true, one man's detail is another's
ear-bleeder. That's our hobby, extremely personal.

 

[Orb]

Bright IS a coloration, a very severe one, so don't tell me about 'zero coloration' or 'accuracy'. Live music rarely sounds bright, and if it does, in a bright acoustic, it is a different kind of brightness than on a 'bright' stereo system.

Warm and fuzzy is a coloration too, at least the warm and fuzzy from some systems that has no resemblance with live sound either.

The problem though is one could say stereo production and also reproduction is also "coloured-artificial" and then there is the divergence at the point the sound is reproduced by the speakers, it is not the same thing as listening to live music.
Point is many systems can be shown to have accuracy-neutrality but they can sound subtly different when one considers we listen to recorded and reproduced stereo, on speakers that are never truly accurate or with zero colouration.
But to maintain some kind of parity in terms of system and accuracy; try listening to the MBL C31 CD-DAC player and work out why it sounds warm-rich when it measures incredibly well and down just 0.5db at 20khz for FR.
Every review mentions how warm-rich it sounds (one review slightly criticizes it for this) and I have to agree it does sound that way also to me (had various other players-DACs in my time to compare them to).
It is counter-intuitive for many what an accurate and excellent measuring digital player should sound like.
http://dagogo.com/mbl-corona-c31-cd-player-review/5
http://www.audioemotion.co.uk/ekmps/shops/audioemotion/resources/Other/hfn-mbl-corona-c31.pdf (has measurements)

Cheers
Orb

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Modern dry bass or vintage round bass, what I find a little scary, half of our beloved treasures were mixed on Yamaha NS-10's.

Then they should be plenty warm on most speakers.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

It's the music recordings that are getting better; with careful/judicious selective choice. ...And with DSP Room EQ. ...And technological advancement in sound reproduction systems. ...Including the mechanical/electrical active loudspeakers, with active crossovers, and innovative/functional/acoustically sound designs.

Everything is more "there" in the now, almost like "Live". ...Words cannot describe music we hear, only the heart and soul can.

Yeah, music recording/mixing engineers (some of them) are getting better @ capturing the true essence of the music, and the music players (some of them) are playing better too, with real passion and love for their art. ...Example: Artists from the ECM record label, Channel Classics record label, Reference Recordings record label, AudioQuest Music record label, Analog Productions Originals (APO) record label, and several more.

Everyone is improving; Wilson Audio, Magico, JBL, Revel, KEF, B&W, Sonus Faber, etc.

DACs and Music Servers are also getting better, smoother, tighter, faster, ...all that jazz.

 

[PeterA]

Audio has more BS, and nonsense, than any hobby that I know of!

I guess that you have not been to a modern art gallery or wine tasting lately.

 

[DaveC]

I know what you're trying to say, but it's not accurate if it's bright. Accurate may seem bright to those who are used to warm, but accurate is accurate. I could leave you with the impression that my system is bright or warm, simply by the choice of recordings I play. If you can't do that with a system, it's probably colored.

Tim

Exactly, I'd also add that setup and room acoustics at shows are sometimes very poor. Some people bash Focal for sounding like this but hear them in a properly setup room that is on the damp side and they will sound incredible and not bright at all. The pairing of wide dispersion high frequencies with a live room is usually responsible for people's complains similar to the OP.

And, most people are used to systems that add a significant amount of warmth and smooth out significant detail, even on the extreme high end. I feel like systems are getting better and allowing more detail to be reproduced that some just aren't used to. Harshness and grain is another matter, but I don't think this is the issue in the OP.

Orb, parts choices can color the sound warm, it's really easy to do if that's your goal. Components that do this usually sacrifice detail though. Cables too... I can make a cable sound however you want.

 

[GaryProtein]

Bright IS a coloration, a very severe one, so don't tell me about 'zero coloration' or 'accuracy'. Live music rarely sounds bright, and if it does, in a bright acoustic, it is a different kind of brightness than on a 'bright' stereo system.

Warm and fuzzy is a coloration too, at least the warm and fuzzy from some systems that has no resemblance with live sound either.

You got that right!

One man's accurate system may be another's bright and shrill.

One man's (who can't hear anything over 10kHz) accurate system will be another person's (with good hearing), bright and shrill.

Several of the $100k and over, respected speakers have tweeters that made my ears bleed.

Can we trust the opinions of people who frequented rock concerts or played in rock bands?

I hear the same thing not only at shows but at dealers as well. I got off the merry ground in the late 90's, other than upgrading my digital. The system sounds great and I never come home and listen and wish I had anything else. I have heard some reviewer systems that quite frankly sucked. I don't know where the hobby ran off the rails, but count me as one who thinks we have. It makes me wonder who has recently heard live acoustic music recently. One of the reasons I attend quite a few classical performances in small venues such as St. Martins in the Fields. Gives me a better grasp on what a system sound sound like.

I know exactly how you feel.

Exaggerated high frequencies and etch = "details"

Biting unnatural attacks = "fast transient response"

Unnaturally dry bass = "taut" and “tight”

This is what I hear at audio shows over the last several years!

Have "new" audiophiles lost their way, in relation to what "natural sound" of "non-amplified acoustic" music sounds like?

This "type" of sound is increasingly selling as current "State of Art".

Audio has more BS, and nonsense, than any hobby that I know of!

And as "Crazy" becomes acceptable, it drives more "Crazy".

I have been in this hobby since the 70's and heard it all.

Maybe those that kept their older systems, and got off the "marry-go-round", of latest and most expensive is best, are the most intelligent!

I like to think so!

The characteristics you describe leaves much of the new equipment sounding rather sterile.

 

[Orb]

....
Orb, parts choices can color the sound warm, it's really easy to do if that's your goal. Components that do this usually sacrifice detail though. Cables too... I can make a cable sound however you want.

Although point being products that still measure accurately such as the MBL C31 and is warm-rich (so it is probable components can sound lean/bright/etc while measuring neutral-accurate, how much so is another discussion).
And this is in various systems, so the sound is associated with the MBL in this example.
Apologies if you mean parts being internals such as caps,opamps,etc.
Anyway my post was in response to how some suggest accuracy is one specific variable and warm-lean-bright-etc (even though the scale of this has not been touched upon) are anomalies, when it is much more complex due to the artificial nature of producing "fake" stereo sound exacerbated by speakers that are definitely not accurate or neutral (this also applies to headphones that are far from accurate-neutral themselves) while the electronics still measure accurate and neutral.
I appreciate there is much equipment that does not measure so, but my context is for those that do measure well on variables that are traditionally used for sound quality by forum objectivists, that then apply a specific and absolute definition on accuracy and neutrality.
In doing so one must go by measurements, which I am using just one example with the MBL C31 that slightly confounds that absolute definition.
Apologies for going off topic and maybe this is for another thread, although I wonder if I am just reiterating one side of a debate that has happened many times on here *shrug*.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Joe Whip]

Gary, even being an older guy, 56, I can still hear to 17kHz. Perhaps that is why so many of the new expensive speakers drive me nuts being way too bright. Some of the speakers issues I have heard can probably be related to the amps used too. I heard the Anats mentioned by Peter and the sound changed with a change in the amp. The less powerful, the worse the sound. Tubes sounded shall I say less than stellar on those speakers.

 

[Orb]

Gary, even being an older guy, 56, I can still hear to 17kHz. Perhaps that is why so many of the new expensive speakers drive me nuts being way too bright. Some of the speakers issues I have heard can probably be related to the amps used too. I heard the Anats mentioned by Peter and the sound changed with a change in the amp. The less powerful, the worse the sound. Tubes sounded shall I say less than stellar on those speakers.

You done well to keep your hearing that sensitive Joe, very impressive for the age.
Not trying to make you feel old
Cheers
Orb

 

[Joe Whip]

Been using ear protection my entire life.

 

[Orb]

Been using ear protection my entire life.

Definitely paid off, interesting how reviewers (some at least anyway) even prepare to protect their ears while travelling by plane.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Anyway my post was in response to how some suggest accuracy is one specific variable and warm-lean-bright-etc (even though the scale of this has not been touched upon) are anomalies, when it is much more complex due to the artificial nature of producing "fake" stereo sound exacerbated by speakers that are definitely not accurate or neutral

Maybe I'm not following you, Orb. Accuracy is an objective, not a variable, and are you saying that because speakers are not neutral, you should try to choose electronics thats inaccuracies cancel the inaccuracies of your transducers? Why not just start with neutral electronics and pick speakers you like the sound of? That would be much easier. Of course it would also involve a lot less buying/selling/trading and tweaking which is, in itself, a hobby. Maybe that's the point?

(this also applies to headphones that are far from accurate-neutral themselves)

Consumer headphones, even very expensive ones, are deliberately colored, because there is no room gain and neutral phones sound unnatural to humans. Doesn't mean it can't be done. I have a pair of relatively inexpensive Etymotics that are very close to flat; neutral is a whole lot easier to achieve in headphones than it is in rooms.

I appreciate there is much equipment that does not measure so, but my context is for those that do measure well on variables that are traditionally used for sound quality by forum objectivists, that then apply a specific and absolute definition on accuracy and neutrality.

How can there not be a specific definition of accuracy or neutrality? It is an output, on the other side of the component being evaluated, that matches the input, and yes, it must be measured. That doesn't mean it can't be heard.

I wonder if I am just reiterating one side of a debate that has happened many times on here *shrug*.

We all are.

I'll say this again, because it bears repeating: Give me a neutral system (and I understand that's a goal that hasn't been achieved in the absolute...) and I can make it sound warm or bright with the choice of material. Neutral = accurate reproduction of the recordings. Some are great. Some are pretty awful. But accurate is natural. Accurate is life-like (given that you're listening to a recording at that moment in your life). And accurate, when the recording is exemplary, is the most musical possible presentation, in the real sense of that word.

Tim

 

[Elliot G.]

I guess that you have not been to a modern art gallery or wine tasting lately.

the internet and social media have made millions of experts and billions of opinions, sadly the overwhelming majority of these are worthless except to the one expressing it. I am fine with this however I am not fine with the hostility expressed.
Music and the reproduction of it is what I have always enjoyed and like most other things in our world the internet and social media has done nothing IMHO to improve any of them.
Listen to some live music and then go listen to a system, make your choice for your home, tastes and budget.

 

[PeterA]

the internet and social media have made millions of experts and billions of opinions, sadly the overwhelming majority of these are worthless except to the one expressing it. I am fine with this however I am not fine with the hostility expressed.
Music and the reproduction of it is what I have always enjoyed and like most other things in our world the internet and social media has done nothing IMHO to improve any of them.
Listen to some live music and then go listen to a system, make your choice for your home, tastes and budget.

Elliot, I agree fully. I guess I find the live comments about art and wine similar in color and subjectivity to what I hear discussed in the corridors (or in the back of rooms while the music is playing) during audio shows. There are lots of hobbies that are full of personal opinions. Your last sentence is good advice.

 

[Joe Whip]

I wouldn't fly anywhere without my Bose Noise cancelling headphones. Have been using them for years. Makes a huge difference, especially on international flights.

 

[Orb]

Maybe I'm not following you, Orb. Accuracy is an objective, not a variable, and are you saying that because speakers are not neutral, you should try to choose electronics thats inaccuracies cancel the inaccuracies of your transducers? Why not just start with neutral electronics and pick speakers you like the sound of? That would be much easier. Of course it would also involve a lot less buying/selling/trading and tweaking which is, in itself, a hobby. Maybe that's the point?

Accuracy is based upon variables relating to frequency and time domain. distortion,etc.
The objective to some seems to be to compare recordings to real life performance, but as I mention this is not truly feasible as one is the illusion of the real thing relying upon specific mic position-placements and the recording mastered (usually involves some subtle tweaking) converted into a stereo mix and then reproduced with only two speakers using multiple drivers.
So accuracy and neutrality has to be put into a specific context outside that relating to the original live performance.
This then becomes even more of a moving target because no speaker can ever be called neutral and accurate in the context of either reproducing music like the original performance (as if there) or even in terms measurements.
If you want closest to original performance then one could argue the electronics should not be accurate/neutral due to speakers being quite away from this; that said even then our definition of what is accurate-neutral is not complete because of products that measure incredibly well and yet perceived as not being neutral.

Consumer headphones, even very expensive ones, are deliberately colored, because there is no room gain and neutral phones sound unnatural to humans. Doesnt mean it can't be done. I have a pair of relatively inexpensive Etymotics that are very close to flat; neutral is a whole lot easier to achieve in headphones than it is in rooms.

Unfortunately I was talking beyond basic consumer headphones and in fact the issues relate to all headphones including in-ear.
In-ear do require specific moulding to each individual ear, have further challenges with the transducers in terms of frequency response-pair matching-etc, and for this and traditional headphones potentially compounded by the fact it breaks the natural human cognitive perception on how we process sounds with both ears.
I no longer have it but one recent study showed a perception bias type effect where the brain can be confused between right and left side with regards to sound and its loudness; the result they found was they could make it seem the louder sound came from the opposite ear when using headphones and while further study is required it seems it is related to a mechanism on how we use both ears together to process natural sounds in the environment.
Beyond this is that there is still no set universally accepted standard on what to implement for frequency correction and free field or diffuse field compared to uncorrected.

How can there not be a specific definition of accuracy or neutrality? It is an output, on the other side of the component being evaluated, that matches the input, and yes, it must be measured. That doesn't mean it can't be heard.

Apart from the music by the time it reaches consumer audio products is not the same as being at the real event for some of the reasons I have touched upon (goes way beyond those).
So yes as I mention accuracy-neutrality has to be removed from the context of being equally-identically reproduced to live music because it is already converted into an illusion of that, so as I said earlier in this post it means measuring products to specific variables and that then raises the point why do various components measure very well and yet have their own sound albeit subtle or in the case of something like the MBL C31 quite noticeable.
Or even compare amplifiers that have good measurements (not suggesting the sound is night and day different but subtle).

I'll say this again, because it bears repeating: Give me a neutral system (and I understand that's a goal that hasn't been achieved in the absolute...) and I can make it sound warm or bright with the choice of material. Neutral = accurate reproduction of the recordings. Some are great. Some are pretty awful. But accurate is natural. Accurate is life-like (given that you're listening to a recording at that moment in your life). And accurate, when the recording is exemplary, is the most musical possible presentation, in the real sense of that word.
Tim

As I keep saying listen to the MBL C31 and tell me why it is not neutral when it measures extremely well even though it does sound rich-warm in various systems and by various reviewers and those who audition it.
I agree one can create accurate reproduction of the recording but that does not mean it is natural due to the fact it is a mastered stereo illusion of the real thing.
One aspect though is how components perform with regards to traits such as sibilance/noise-distortion in recording/phase related issues/etc; is the product that makes sibilance stand out more better than the one where it seems more controlled and less prominent?
Who would be right when all the components measure equally well in terms of accuracy and neutrality.
Some see "warts and all" to being more accurate but it does not necessarily mean so as it could be a trait exacerbated with the system components (as another example same way early CDs-digital recordings had issues that may be more noticeable on certain systems).
Sort of how j-test stimulates jitter and makes it worst.

I appreciate some of this could be semantics between us, while other aspects are different POVs where the reality is somewhere between all these POVs.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Don C]

If you want to reproduce the actual recording event, or just the same emotion of being there live on some recordings, it is not impossible!

Have a satisfied mind in the end!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4PtdDp5-0&spfreload=10

Perfection is impossible, but you can get close.

http://www.performancerecordings.com/capturing-music.html

 

[Peter Breuninger]

I wouldn't fly anywhere without my Bose Noise cancelling headphones. Have been using them for years. Makes a huge difference, especially on international flights.

Interesting, I find international flights to be much more comfortable and much more quieter than domestic flights.

 

[Orb]

Interesting, I find international flights to be much more comfortable and much more quieter than domestic flights.

Just adding info also about another type of protection.
I do wonder if pressure caused when flying can also be a possible issue for affecting hearing, probably more so if suffering a cold,sinus related problems,etc.
There are also ear plugs that manage cabin pressure influences on the ear, and some combine with noise reduction.

Not sure what type Kal Rubinson uses but I know he has mentioned them several times in the past.
Cheers
Orb