dCS vs Esoteric

[microstrip]

The tubes are just play. I would like to resist a move to analog for practical reasons, and keep myself interested by playing with tubes. They are easy buy sell anyway,and help me optimize the digital. If I could, I would trade in my Lampi for a good analog set up in a flash, and then get an oppo in. I started on the wrong path, and (imo) have the best digital, but it is no (well set up) analog.

And yes, I have experimented with the Lampi through a Trinnov, and it was fine. I will one day get Acourate or some s/w that will allow me to optionally turn on DRC

The nice thing about analog is that you can get excellent vintage or used systems for a very nice price. But again people dream about the unobtainium or magic bearings or platters.

I have owned many turntables and tonearms and could easily live with most of them. I would not feel I would be downgrading returning to the Forsell, SME30 or the Simon York. Just different views of comparable quality. However going back in the digital would be really a downgrade.

 

[MadFloyd]

Simple answer, YES. In my system (Magico S3's, Pass XA-100.5's, Pass XP20, Kubala Emotion IC's/SC) I no longer prefer Vinyl playback (Clear Audio Ovation, Benz LPS, ARC Ref 2SE) over digital, I just listen to music in whatever format.

I'll be in Boston in a couple weeks and plan to stop by Goodwins to see if I can audtion what an external clock for the Rossini brings to the table.

Great to hear that you can enjoy either format equally! Since I have Magico/Pass/KS this is helpful. Is Goodwins your dCS dealer?

 

[JimmyS]

Great to hear that you can enjoy either format equally! Since I have Magico/Pass/KS this is helpful. Is Goodwins your dCS dealer?

Paul at Goodwins has been very helpful during my work visits to Boston .

 

[YashN]

Also, I believe that digital as a medium is not good enough and is improved by DRC. NADAC due to its multiple outputs allows the flexibility of connecting subs and implementing DRC better. I have never experimented but this is something dallasjustice was toying with, and it is possible that it will fit into DRC better than other dacs would (again, fyi, my personal belief is most dacs sound bad, so why go expensive).

I disagree: digital can be good enough or even better (less distortion), especially high-rate DSD into native DSD DACs or chipless, and especially paired with Tubes.

But, since the high-res way of doing things is quite new, we're still learning about how to build the equipment the proper way and how to set it all up, etc...

Digital audiophilia is an exercise in EMC.

 

[MadFloyd]

digital audiophilia is an exercise in emc.

emc?

 

[opus112]

EMC = 'electromagnetic compatibility'. He's referring to the fact that digital equipment is a producer of radio frequency noise I believe. Certainly controlling/minimizing RF influence is necessary for achieving high-end sound IME.

 

[MadFloyd]

EMC = 'electromagnetic compatibility'. He's referring to the fact that digital equipment is a producer of radio frequency noise I believe. Certainly controlling/minimizing RF influence is necessary for achieving high-end sound IME.

Thank you.

 

[JimmyS]

How long does it take to get a SACD ripped in a DFF file? I am still looking for the time to try the ripper with my Pioneer BD160.

Sorry, never really took notice on length of time to get the .ISO ripped. The speed will depend on your network throughput as the data is extracted via the ethernet port from the OPPO to your storage location. If I had to guess I'd say ~2x ripping speed.

 

[caesar]

Everything does. Agree with you on that point ! Good old pcm sounds pretty nice on the current dCS lineup-even upsampled to dsd... my opinion anyway ... if you're ever close to Austin, tx let me know. Happy to host you ...

Thank you so much - very kind of you! If I happen to be in Texas during the winter, I may give you a shout

 

[caesar]

I am curious which outboard clock you have used with the NADAC?



You think? Here is a picture of my NADAC MC-8:

View attachment 29441

And just for fun, here is a picture of the inside of a Bricasti M1 Dual Mono, which sells for half the price:

View attachment 29442

Here are a few things to note:

- NADAC has a switch mode power supply that powers everything. The Bricasti has three toroidal transformers.

- The digital and analog section in the NADAC are on the same board. On the Bricasti, they are on separate boards with separate power supplies.

- The NADAC uses two Sabre ESS 9008S chips. Not the 9018S. Not the new 9028/9038. The reason - they believe that these chips sound better than the newer Sabre chips. Also, note that this 8 channel DAC (which costs $1000 more than the two channel DAC) - has TWO DAC chips. Not 8. Other DAC's at this price point are not using an off-the-shelf chip but using FPGA's (Playback Designs) or custom discrete designs (DCS, MSB, Lampi)? Even a humble Oppo BDP-105 has the ESS9018S.

- The oscillator crystal is not oven controlled.

I don't deny that the NADAC sounds good. It definitely does. But I think my Playback Designs MPS-5, with the latest firmware upgrades, sounds better. And i'll point out again - that Bricasti DAC, which costs half of the NADAC, has a much more purist design. When we are in NADAC territory, your money can buy you MSB and DCS. Both of these companies have long pedigrees in the audiophile world. With a NADAC, you get an off-the-shelf DAC chip which is a lower end model to what is fitted to an Oppo DVD player.

The last time I made a post like this, I received an email from my Merging distributor. Well, all I am doing is stating facts. It is a fact that they use the 9008S. It is a fact that other DAC's in this price bracket have a more purist design. You can, if you wish, choose to dismiss toroidal power supplies, separate Analog/Digital sections, etc etc as audiophile fluff. You can, if you wish, believe their claims that they chose the Sabre 9008S because it sounds superior to the more expensive chips in the Sabre lineup. But anybody can look at what is inside the DAC, look at what else is on the market, and draw their own conclusions.

If this is "as good as digital can get", I wonder how much better it would be if it was designed like a Bricasti M1.

I am pretty sure it was the lower priced Esoteric, and I thought it made a transformational difference.

 

[caesar]

EMC = 'electromagnetic compatibility'. He's referring to the fact that digital equipment is a producer of radio frequency noise I believe. Certainly controlling/minimizing RF influence is necessary for achieving high-end sound IME.

Hi Opus, any advice on how to best handle it?

Each Esoteric weighs around 70lb, so I am assuming it has a huge power supply to help clean up the electricity...

 

[caesar]

The nice thing about analog is that you can get excellent vintage or used systems for a very nice price. But again people dream about the unobtainium or magic bearings or platters.

I have owned many turntables and tonearms and could easily live with most of them. I would not feel I would be downgrading returning to the Forsell, SME30 or the Simon York. Just different views of comparable quality. However going back in the digital would be really a downgrade.

Great observation, Micro. I feel the same. What do you think is the price level of analog that can keep you satisfied?

 

[caesar]

Others ask, "What coloration?"

That's the subjective part of the hobby. I spent a lot of time in jazz and blues bars, so I immediately miss the snappiness of pcm.

 

[opus112]

Hi Opus, any advice on how to best handle it?

Each Esoteric weighs around 70lb, so I am assuming it has a huge power supply to help clean up the electricity...

EMC needs dealing with at the whole system level rather than component by component. A clean mains supply is paramount then each individual component would have its own individual filter, assuming that high performance filtering hasn't been built in (I recall AMR takes this pretty seriously but I'm not aware of others taking the same pains). If you see a bog-standard inlet 'brick' being used (as is visible on the internal shot of the Bricasti) then odds are the designers are not taking mains filtering all that seriously. Using three toroidals also strongly suggests to me its not being given due weight - because three transformers give 3X the interwinding capacitance which provides an easier path for common-mode noise.

Wherever possible balanced interconnects would be used, failing that use of isolation transformers on unbalanced cables should be considered.

 

[caesar]

EMC needs dealing with at the whole system level rather than component by component. A clean mains supply is paramount then each individual component would have its own individual filter, assuming that high performance filtering hasn't been built in (I recall AMR takes this pretty seriously but I'm not aware of others taking the same pains). If you see a bog-standard inlet 'brick' being used (as is visible on the internal shot of the Bricasti) then odds are the designers are not taking mains filtering all that seriously. Using three toroidals also strongly suggests to me its not being given due weight - because three transformers give 3X the interwinding capacitance which provides an easier path for common-mode noise.

Wherever possible balanced interconnects would be used, failing that use of isolation transformers on unbalanced cables should be considered.

Thank you! Interestingly, per another thread, the Bricasti guys always show with the silver circle product which contains a 5kva isolation transformer, and consistently get great results at shows.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...re-differences&p=411668&viewfull=1#post411668

 

[caesar]

For guys who know what they are looking at, what do you guys make of the internals of Chord DAVE? seems like a baby, but sounds fab by all accounts

 

[ack]

Personally, the only thing I can tell from the picture is the power supply, which appears to be switching-mode - I avoid those like the plague, and was a big turn-off in the Nadac.

 

[PeterA]

If it is what I am thinking some friends and me call it "digitalitis" . It is horrible, making music very tiresome, like a shout if listened loud, and destroying all the rhythm of music. Most people will disagree with me, saying bits are just bits, but I have often associated it with music servers and virtual music served by generic pc's via USB.

High resolution audio systems enhance it.

I get this. I always felt the same way with all digital until I recently heard the Vivaldi stack and then the Rossini at my local dealer, Goodwin's. I have also heard MadFloyd's NADAC, and I understand what Ian is describing. In a direct comparison with his analog on the Yarlung Janaki String Trio, the analog was much more natural sounding. The digital through the NADAC had no "space" or setting around the instruments, and it was lifeless, though highly resolved. It was OK, but not involving, with little musicality or emotional connection. The NADAC with this quad DSD recording was very good digital, but I did not know what the medium is capable of until I heard the dSC at Goodwins, and that was playing regular redbook CDs.

 

[microstrip]

That's the subjective part of the hobby. I spent a lot of time in jazz and blues bars, so I immediately miss the snappiness of pcm.

Caesar,

Can you explain what you mean by "snappiness of PCM"? IMHO the snappiness of DSD in the Vivaldi is quite similar to that of the PCM. I can even add that particularly for the Aliavox dual layer hybrid CD/SACD recordings the SACD is "snappier" - much more energetic and livelier because it sounds very natural and with better transients. IMHO jazz and blues sound great in DSD!

 

[microstrip]

Great observation, Micro. I feel the same. What do you think is the price level of analog that can keep you satisfied?

The only turntable of my list that is currently available is the SME30, I would consider this price level. For logistic reasons I have been using a good sounding Scheu Premier 80 mm (great value for money!) with an SME 12" tonearm for the last few weeks and I can not say that I am as satisfied with the Scheu as I was with my other turntables.

Although it is an often abused comparison I would risk saying I want my LP systems to have something of the mastertape "feeling" of my Studer A80's playing the Tapeproject tapes.