Crystal Disc US$1600 was played with Genesis Speaker

[Steve Williams]

Thanks Andy

Perhaps if DSD and hirez digital files were more of a hit in your country it would obviate the need for a $1600 redbook crystal disk but just IMO of course

 

[DaveyF]

What constantly amuses me in this hobby is how manufacturer's and dealers of gear price their wares. It would seem that here we have another perfect example of...what's the maximum we could possibly ask for this product so that we can border on the ludicrous, BUT still make a few sales to the "suckers". What i do understand about this marketing strategy is that it will appeal to a minority and may ( or perhaps might) have a modicum of success with that minority. However, I have to wonder if these guys have ever thought about the opposite marketing strategy, which would be to sell to the majority and price accordingly, thereby potentially selling MUCH larger numbers. This strategy would naturally NOT involve making a KILLING on each piece sold. OTOH, it wouldn't have the allure of being so audacious. Just a thought, LOL.

 

[Steve Williams]

What constantly amuses me in this hobby is how manufacturer's and dealers of gear price their wares. It would seem that here we have another perfect example of...what's the maximum we could possibly ask for this product so that we can border on the ludicrous, BUT still make a few sales to the "suckers". What i do understand about this marketing strategy is that it will appeal to a minority and may ( or perhaps might) have a modicum of success with that minority. However, I have to wonder if these guys have ever thought about the opposite marketing strategy, which would be to sell to the majority and price accordingly thereby potentially selling MUCH larger numbers. This strategy would naturally NOT involve making a KILLING on each piece sold. OTOH, it wouldn't have the allure of being so audacious. Just a thought, LOL.

I'd like to know who chooses the titles for the Crystal Disk. These leave me somewhat nonplussed

 

[andymodern]

Thanks Andy

Perhaps if DSD and hirez digital files were more of a hit in your country it would obviate the need for a $1600 redbook crystal disk but just my IMO of course

If audiophiles here are willing to pay for our hirez files and we can somewhat justify our operation cost with the download revenue, i don't mind to open up my source! You know I don't want to be another Kodak!

 

[Steve Williams]

If audiophiles here are willing to pay for our hirez files and we can somewhat justify our operation cost with the download revenue, i don't mind to open up my source! You know I don't want to be another Kodak!

are you suggesting that hirez digital files would cost even more money than a Crystal Disk

 

[DaveyF]

I'd like to know who chooses the titles for the Crystal Disk. These leave me somewhat nonplussed

An expert in what our taste in music is.

 

[DaveyF]

If audiophiles here are willing to pay for our hirez files and we can somewhat justify our operation cost with the download revenue, i don't mind to open up my source! You know I don't want to be another Kodak!

Don't you need to add ..." and our required profit margin". Which at this point seems to be of some amusement to the members here, LOL.

 

[andymodern]

I'd like to know who chooses the titles for the Crystal Disk. These leave me somewhat nonplussed

Since the cost to make Crystal Disc is not cheap, record company must choose title(s) the market wants; otherwise they are making another bunch of rubbish and wasting money! Usually the title must be popular amongst audiophiles and receive many excellent reviews. So far none of them will make Crystal Disc on new release!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, Crystal Disc is made according to the Redbook specification. I don't have every detail figure with me. Memory-Tech should have! And also yes, Crystal Disc is the best of all CD formats because the way it is produced is totally different than the conventional poly-carbonate CD! (please refer to the manufacturing process of both formats in this thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...US-1600-was-played-with-Genesis-Speaker/page7)

(Well, i should not say anything about comparing CD and LP because they are 2 totally different formats one is apple and the other is orange!)

You need the details, the data, even if you're only going to claim that it is better than a standard CD. A different physical manufacturing process and different materials may or may not impact the performance of the digital media, but it does nothing to support your claim. That evidence will be in the data, the distortion, and the noise levels delivered to the DAC, and, barring hard numbers pointing clearly audible advantages, in the results of double blind listening tests. And at $1600 per disc, "it's too hard/it takes too much time/it requires too many resources/I just know what I hear" should not be an acceptable answer.

There are places where the enthusiasm, the packaging, the detailed description of the manufacturing process and the price would be more than enough to convince. Thankfully, you're not in one of those places.

Tim

 

[andymodern]

Don't you need to add ..." and our required profit margin". Which at this point seems to be of some amusement to the members here, LOL.

CD industry is a sunset industry. We, as one of the independent labels (I don't know about the major big record company), are talking about how we can strive to survive, and not become another Kodak

 

[Steve Williams]

CD industry is a sunset industry. We, as one of the independent labels (I don't know about the major big record company), are talking about how we can strive to survive, and not become another Kodak

IMO this isn't about survival but rather creating such a boutique market for a redbook CD that is so expensive that your margins (profits) more than cover your expense. Seems you are pandering to such a select group of audiophiles that it makes reasonable discussion impossible

 

[microstrip]

Thanks Andy

Perhaps if DSD and hirez digital files were more of a hit in your country it would obviate the need for a $1600 redbook crystal disk but just IMO of course

Steve,

Surely, but we have to consider that along decades many audiophiles bought high quality very expensive CD playing systems and these systems are not vanishing in the air! So there will always be space for a high quality experimental product, even if outdated by WBF standards.

I can easily imagine that rich people who have invested in very expensive systems in the past and do not belong to the group of people who are always changing equipment to have the latest product, and now see a possibility of having a few recordings that makes their systems shine will probably buy them, irrespective of cost. Although, as you say, having an excellent DSD compatible DAC seems to be the optimal solution.

BTW, did you ever think about listening to a DCS Vivaldi stack in your system? I would love to read your opinions about it versus the Playback, specially using the ML3!

 

[andymodern]

You need the details, the data, even if you're only going to claim that it is better than a standard CD. A different physical manufacturing process and different materials may or may not impact the performance of the digital media, but it does nothing to support your claim. That evidence will be in the data, the distortion, and the noise levels delivered to the DAC, and, barring hard numbers pointing clearly audible advantages, in the results of double blind listening tests. And at $1600 per disc, "it's too hard/it takes too much time/it requires too many resources/I just know what I hear" should not be an acceptable answer.

There are places where the enthusiasm, the packaging, the detailed description of the manufacturing process and the price would be more than enough to convince. Thankfully, you're not in one of those places.

Tim

I totally agree with you! I would love to ask Memory-Tech to provide some figures for us! I think Winston Ma from FIM recently disclose some figures to support his UHD. But as i know we don't use "the distortion, and the noise levels" to describe a CD. I think the factory use something like Reflection, Jitter land, Radial noise and so on.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I totally agree with you! I would love to ask Memory-Tech to provide some figures for us! I think Winston Ma from FIM recently disclose some figures to support his UHD. But as i know we don't use "the distortion, and the noise levels" to describe a CD. I think the factory use something like Reflection, Jitter land, Radial noise and so on.

I think we can consider "distortion and noise" to encompass all digital artifacts, real and imagined.

Tim

 

[Steve Williams]

BTW, did you ever think about listening to a DCS Vivaldi stack in your system? I would love to read your opinions about it versus the Playback, specially using the ML3!

never

 

[garylkoh]

I was a non-believer of Gary's ripping regimen until a friend (local Harbeth, Vitus, Accuphase, YG dealer) compared my 1x rips and his "No Short Cuts" Gary rips. Mine sounded like crap.

Thanks, Jack.

 

[DaveyF]

CD industry is a sunset industry. We, as one of the independent labels (I don't know about the major big record company), are talking about how we can strive to survive, and not become another Kodak

And you think bringing out a CD ( redbook at that) and pricing it at $1600 is the answer??

 

[garylkoh]

Well, some might care about the credibility of the hobby and the industry; I reckon that ship as sailed. Some might not care, as long as we keep them away from the young and impressionable. The not so young, but impressionable? That ship has sailed as well. Then there's the credibility of WBF. The claims for this product have barely fallen short of 'better than the original master.' Could they possibly sound better than a conventional CD in some players? It could happen. And we've hit the end of the reality-based discussion right there. If I were Steve or Amir, I wouldn't want this, or crystal pyramid room treatments, or witch doctor "cures" for cancer, or any other form of blatantly false propaganda to go unchallenged here.

Rain on a parade? I'd call it integrity.

There. It has been said.

Tim

My problem is that there are some on WBF who hold themselves to be the arbiter of integrity when it does not meet their personal standards. How different is a $1,600 CD compared to a $16 CD vs a $15,000 CD player compared to a $150 CD player? I don't see anyone calling out a $15,000 CD player to be hurting the credibility of the hobby. "Rain on someone's parade" means to spoil something that someone else enjoys.

Andy did not make the claim, but I have heard someone who is very dear to us that has claimed that the crystal CD sounded better than the glass master - and this boils down to the materials and process used. I have my CD re-burning process freely available, and yet there are over 1,500 subscribers to a $300 commercial version of the burned CD using my process. Do I think that the $300 CD is worth the money? Do you know the laborious process through which the $300 CD has gone through? What is labor worth if it takes 3 hours to make one? And small runs need special licensing and royalties paid.

 

[edorr]

My problem is that there are some on WBF who hold themselves to be the arbiter of integrity when it does not meet their personal standards. How different is a $1,600 CD compared to a $16 CD vs a $15,000 CD player compared to a $150 CD player? I don't see anyone calling out a $15,000 CD player to be hurting the credibility of the hobby. "Rain on someone's parade" means to spoil something that someone else enjoys.

Bad analogy. A CD player is a piece of hardware. A CD is a medium to store encoded digital information. That digital information is bit for bit the same information whether stored on a flashdrive, $2 CD, or $1,600 CD or some $1 mln dollar gimmick. Now you can make the case that some storage medium, given the available technologies to read the digital information on that medium results in lower error rates in reading that information. However this is most likely to produce audible differences in a piece of junk transport with poor error correction and no buffering of data.

A $45,000 transport that is at all sensitive to the "quality" of the disc you play in it is a shitty design, because the more expensive the transport, the more immune to quality of the disc it should be (this may be a bit counterintuitive to some, especially those that view sources through a turntable paradigm).

So to go back to your analogy - while no one will argue with the existence of $500 PC and $5000 PC, this is more like selling a $5,000 copy of Microsoft office on a "officesuiteOphile" premium disc.

 

[Steve Williams]

My problem is that there are some on WBF who hold themselves to be the arbiter of integrity when it does not meet their personal standards. How different is a $1,600 CD compared to a $16 CD vs a $15,000 CD player compared to a $150 CD player? I don't see anyone calling out a $15,000 CD player to be hurting the credibility of the hobby. "Rain on someone's parade" means to spoil something that someone else enjoys.

Andy did not make the claim, but I have heard someone who is very dear to us that has claimed that the crystal CD sounded better than the glass master - and this boils down to the materials and process used. I have my CD re-burning process freely available, and yet there are over 1,500 subscribers to a $300 commercial version of the burned CD using my process. Do I think that the $300 CD is worth the money? Do you know the laborious process through which the $300 CD has gone through? What is labor worth if it takes 3 hours to make one? And small runs need special licensing and royalties paid.

Gary

Point well taken however IMO you are comparing apples and oranges. Same can be said for speakers and components but seriously is this disk truly better than an R2R tape of the same music and only costs $300 but should sound better or am I mistaken.