Conclusive "Proof" that higher resolution audio sounds different

arnyk

New Member
Apr 25, 2011
310
0
0
Exactly why positive & negative controls are a good idea in any test - it goes some way to assuring that the test is being run within the parameters appropriate for the test. In this case the IMD tones could have been included initially so that the listener & you could verify if the equipment being used was suffering from IMD with these tones?

Right - my mistake was not anticipating how a different group of people behaved and also not anticipating how much gear there is out there that behaves badly with strong signals in the 22-44 KHz range.

My surprise was all of the denial that I encountered when the results of those influences became manifest.

I'm sure there are probably other controls that could also be included, no?

There are always other controls...! ;-)

Again the perfect testing methodology will never exist. That leaves the conundrum of picking between accepting a certain number of flaws or abandoning doing any more subjective tests.

At the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfield - there are known knowns and known unknowns and unknown knowns and unknown unknowns. http://rumsfeld.com/.

What doesn't help is the sighted evaluation advocates sitting idly by and basically saying "See how bad blind tests are - you have all these problems".

The problems are actually the good news because they show how much more sensitive controlled listening tests actually are in general. The confusing factor for many is entering a venue where false positives are far less common. This story has been about another class of false positives. This same source of false positives (IM) is old news in listening tests that involve attempting to understand the effects of more bandwidth.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,182
692
1,200
Alto, NM
arnyk;283189 [I said:
There are reliable facts in this world and some things are right and some things are wrong.[/I]

Whatever you say. We all know you are right my Lord.
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
3,374
42
383
Ireland
Right - my mistake was not anticipating how a different group of people behaved and also not anticipating how much gear there is out there that behaves badly with strong signals in the 22-44 KHz range.

My surprise was all of the denial that I encountered when the results of those influences became manifest.



There are always other controls...! ;-)

Again the perfect testing methodology will never exist. That leaves the conundrum of picking between accepting a certain number of flaws or abandoning doing any more subjective tests.

At the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfield - there are known knowns and known unknowns and unknown knowns and unknown unknowns. http://rumsfeld.com/.

What doesn't help is the sighted evaluation advocates sitting idly by and basically saying "See how bad blind tests are - you have all these problems".

The problems are actually the good news because they show how much more sensitive controlled listening tests actually are in general. The confusing factor for many is entering a venue where false positives are far less common. This story has been about another class of false positives. This same source of false positives (IM) is old news in listening tests that involve attempting to understand the effects of more bandwidth.

Well IMD was one of the known knowns for ultrasonic listening tests so there is a strong case for it being included as a control in a competently designed listening test of this nature.

Yes there are no perfect tests but that doesn't mean that badly designed tests should therefore be accepted or the results considered reliable.

So, in this case, accepting the flaws in the test only seems to matter when those flaws are delivering results in accordance with the preconceived bias of the tester. I believe this is called test bias & is another known known in testing
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
But the previous FFT showing ultrasonics vs a steady test tone were deceptive as a way to compare levels. I should have filtered out the sub-20khz as you have. But the difference in peak levels of jangling keys and test tones is still not as great a difference as the FFT would imply .
Even if you did, you still would not have the full picture. Here is the graph again:



Look at the first set of solid green band on the right where the green arrow ends. That is a 4 Khz tone. I go nearly deaf listening to the key jingling files at "normal" levels when that 4K tone starts to play. So we know subjectively that the single tone 4K is louder perceptually than the rest of the clip. Now compare its levels to the rest of the tones to the right which are ultrasonic. Their amplitude easily dwarf the 4K tone. And here we are comparing single tones to single tones so there should be no other talking point clouding the argument.

Arny is being clever as Orb mentioned in that he is taking advantage of people not being able to hear the ultrasonic tones and boosting them to near clipping level, hoping distortion sets in and with it some doubt gets created regarding validity of these tests. I suspect he could not get his own system to distort at lower levels or that is what he would have put in there. In other words, the level of tones are not due to them being representative of anything real but aimed at manufacturing a hypothesis.

Arny thinks he is doing us a favor by claiming that the ultrasonic tones are representative of the signal. He is not. He is spreading this fire to many other regions of our kingdom. I have cautioned him and did so in my last post but he is still going at it. I don't think he realizes that he is opening the pandora's box, instead living one battle at a time. That is not wise.

How about you? You are comfortable with these tones being representative of at least some real content? I hope you say no and distance yourself from Arny's argument. :)
 

esldude

New Member
snippage........................................


Arny is being clever as Orb mentioned in that he is taking advantage of people not being able to hear the ultrasonic tones and boosting them to near clipping level, hoping distortion sets in and with it some doubt gets created regarding validity of these tests. I suspect he could not get his own system to distort at lower levels or that is what he would have put in there. In other words, the level of tones are not due to them being representative of anything real but aimed at manufacturing a hypothesis.

Arny thinks he is doing us a favor by claiming that the ultrasonic tones are representative of the signal. He is not. He is spreading this fire to many other regions of our kingdom. I have cautioned him and did so in my last post but he is still going at it. I don't think he realizes that he is opening the pandora's box, instead living one battle at a time. That is not wise.

How about you? You are comfortable with these tones being representative of at least some real content? I hope you say no and distance yourself from Arny's argument. :)

I had not encountered Arny's test file before seeing it here. Some people are taking the approach of "how was it Arny was trying to cloud the issue and trick us with unrealistic test signals here?" and then proceed to analyze his motives. I don't know or care about any of that.

Were I trying to create a test signal around jangling keys I don't know that it would be much different. I would want to put IMD tone pairs right near the limit. Why? Because if your system can pass that without issue the lesser dynamic jangling key sound won't cause a problem with IMD. I don't know how Arny or anyone else pitched these files, but it wouldn't be an attempt on my part to 'trick' people into thinking they hear a difference due to IMD by including 'unrealistically high levels of test tones'. Pretty normal in testing audio equipment to do so near the max level. After seeing complaints here one could also include the same tones at a lower level around the level of the jangling key peaks. One might run into systems that fail the IMD test with the higher level and pass with the lower level. It would not have occurred to me to do it that way.

Some have questioned why his keys are at such a high level. As if he is trying to push the idea these levels are normal in music. I don't see that at all. Trying to tease out borderline audible effects I too would have put the levels pretty high. One needs to establish audibility at limits first. Figuring out if such are audible at more music like levels would come later on. Further if the sub 20khz levels had been lower in level it would make it just that much more likely someone would say, "well I hardly hear that", and then turn the volume up causing clipping or IMD from the ultrasonics being present. Having made my own jangling keys recording it is a piece of cake to overload your recording. So he did not do any signal boosting in his as it was not needed.

So I don't see these as being pitched as normal levels representative of music. If you can't hear these high levels of ultrasonics it is safe to say you wouldn't hear lower levels that do occur in music. I don't know if this is considered distancing myself from Arny or not. Looking at the issue isn't really looking at Arny as I see it. If you think his files were designed to distract and misdirect attention, then make your own files and show us what you think is a better test. Would have taken much less effort or time than complaining about Arny's files.
 

Tony Lauck

New Member
Aug 19, 2014
140
0
0
I wish this discussion of peak levels would go away, as it does not contribute to any insight. The peak levels on the jingling key part of the test are at an entirely reasonable level. They are where anyone who wanted to investigate the format capability would place the levels, as can be seen by the arguments that would ensure had the peak levels been put lower, e.g. -12 dBfs. If this lower level were used then it would be rightly complained that the comparison was between 44/14 and 96/22. Arny's IM test levels also seem entirely reasonable, as I explain below. I am dismayed that some of the supposedly technical people here don't understand what's going on between peak levels and spectrum as averaged by an FFT. It is not necessary to have any theoretical understanding of the mathematical issues involved if one has practical experience working with audio editors, sample rate converters, etc. and doing digital post production of recordings. (I have the requisite mathematical understanding and I also have hundreds of hours of experience doing digital post production, which I do on a volunteer basis.)

If we look at all of the DSP and analog components in the playback chain downstream of the output of the player (e.g. Foobar playing the result of the PC ABX choice) there are a number of places where there could be IMD distortion. These include any DSP in Foobar (hopefully not used) or DSP in an upsampling DAC. Then there is potential nonlinearity in the DAC itself, and more likely the IV converter and output drivers. Finally there is the preamp / amp and speakers/phones. Audible distortion in any of these might invalidate the test. So let's look at what to do about each of these possible sources.

First, if the problem is in the DAC itself then this can be addressed by editing the 24 bit files and putting them at a lower level. This would add 24 bit dither noise to both files, having the effect of reducing the bit depth of the 16 bit material an insignificant amount but reducing the bit depth of the 24 bit down to, say 22 bits. The result is still interesting: 44/16 vs. 44/22. In the case of my DAC, the Mytek stereo 192 DSD, I run this with digital volume control. The input 24 bits gets converted to 32 bits and then this gets adjusted digitally. The results then go to the upsampling, SD modulator, IV and output buffer. As it turns out my gain staging is such that I have about 10 dB of headroom at the volume setting that I used to playback the files. So the DAC is unlikely to add significant distortion to either file.

What I worried about is my amplifier distortion and my tweeters. So I was reluctant to play the test files at a very high volume level, because I was afraid of burning out my tweeters. In this regard I would have preferred if the IM test segment had been significantly shorter with pause time to allow for cool down. However, I also am familiar with the gain staging of my system and the volume setting that I used to play the test files was one that I occasionally use while listening to music, e.g. Mahler symphonies. So I eventually decided to turn the volume up to this setting, which was still a bit quieter than what actual keys jingling would sound like live (because of the peak to average ratio). My system passed the IM test as expected. (I use Focal Twin 6 BE active monitors which are tri-amped and there is a 100 wpc class AB amplifier on the tweeters. These are set to be rolled off -3.5 dB at a 10 kHz shelf measured at my listening position using a calibrated microphone. This was accomplished using the pack panel controls on the Focals, and was made to that the majority of my record library had a natural high frequency balance, with essentially none of the recordings being either too dull or too bright. In the flat setting, some bright recordings were unlistenable.) I did not change any of these settings for the listening tests.

My concern is not with the test files, which seem entirely reasonable. My concern is not with a reasonable playback chain, which should be able to play the recordings undistorted as given. My concern is with the test tool, specifically the Foobar-PC ABX software. By allowing the user ability to specify the start/stop points of the file it makes it trivial to "game" the system, either intentionally or unintentionally. So when I read that someone used PC ABX and heard a difference, I can not reach the conclusion that they actually heard a difference between the two test files. They could simply have been hearing differences due to switching transients. The PC ABX tool does not provide an adequate control over false positive results. Controls of this type may not be needed if a single hobbyist is conducting a listening test for their own purposes, but as a means of gathering evidence with a chance of convincing others, the tool simply does not cut it. If the possibility of convincing others is not a requirement, then there is really no need for any "objective" tests in the first place.

There is no need for the PC ABX software to have this fault. One way would be to fix the PC ABX software to fade in and out at the start points. Another way would be to remove these buttons from the tool (or operate on the honor system and do all the testing without using these buttons at all.) If this made the testing too hard, then shorter segments could be selected as part of test software and distributed to the group It would then be possible to vet these sequences for artifacts related to start/stop. If I were serious about this test this is precisely what I would do: find a promising short segment, edit it with a fade in / fade out and then test that using PC ABX, playing the complete segment.

Also, if these tests were intended to be a serious scientific experiment they would not have mixed apples and oranges. They would have tested a single aspect of PCM formats, e.g. 44/16 vs 44/24 or 44/24 vs. 96/24.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
I had not encountered Arny's test file before seeing it here. Some people are taking the approach of "how was it Arny was trying to cloud the issue and trick us with unrealistic test signals here?" and then proceed to analyze his motives. I don't know or care about any of that.
Well, you accused me of deceiving people with my graph so I imagine you do care at some level in one direction at least.

Were I trying to create a test signal around jangling keys I don't know that it would be much different.
There is no discussion of the level of keys jingling. Only the hypothesis of IM distortion evidenced by nearly clipping ultrasonics.

I would want to put IMD tone pairs right near the limit. Why? Because if your system can pass that without issue the lesser dynamic jangling key sound won't cause a problem with IMD.
That is a system test. It has nothing to do with coming up with an explanation of why positive identification is occurring in the key jingling part. This is Arny's motivation and that is what we are discussing. Arny's argument is that if you are hearing IM distortions in his ultrasonics, then your results are invalidated. That is a very different animal than the justification you are providing.

I don't know how Arny or anyone else pitched these files, but it wouldn't be an attempt on my part to 'trick' people into thinking they hear a difference due to IMD by including 'unrealistically high levels of test tones'. Pretty normal in testing audio equipment to do so near the max level.
It is not normal in the context of explaining listening test results.

So I don't see these as being pitched as normal levels representative of music. If you can't hear these high levels of ultrasonics it is safe to say you wouldn't hear lower levels that do occur in music.
That is fine. Problem is that Arny is after inverting that. Here is Arny doing that to his own results from AVS Forum:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/28 07:53:00

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

07:53:00 : Test started.
07:54:38 : Trial reset.
07:56:40 : 01/01 50.0%
07:56:55 : 02/02 25.0%
07:57:15 : 03/03 12.5%
07:57:21 : 04/04 6.3%
07:57:27 : 05/05 3.1%
07:57:35 : 06/06 1.6%
07:57:42 : 06/07 6.3%
07:57:55 : 07/08 3.5%
07:58:10 : 08/09 2.0%
07:58:27 : 09/10 1.1%
07:58:35 : 10/11 0.6%
07:58:52 : 11/12 0.3%
07:59:09 : 12/13 0.2%
07:59:15 : 13/14 0.1%
07:59:22 : 14/15 0.0%
07:59:52 : 15/16 0.0%
07:59:59 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)
--------------------------------

Obviously, I'm not going to BS anybody, this was a bogus test. I selected the level and the portion of the track that I actually listened to to maximize the audible difference based on nonlinear distortion in the crappy monitoring system in this PC producing more audible IM with the 2496 test file than with the 4416 file.


See? He is explaining away his positive identification due to IM distortion with these ultrasonic tones. He is not say, "here is the distortion percentage of this system."

I don't know if this is considered distancing myself from Arny or not. Looking at the issue isn't really looking at Arny as I see it. If you think his files were designed to distract and misdirect attention, then make your own files and show us what you think is a better test. Would have taken much less effort or time than complaining about Arny's files.
Complaining? You mean I can't comment on his hypothesis without it creating an obligation for me to go and create a test to disprove his theory?

As I have said, having these tones "stick" as the right test material is something I can easily take advantage of. I have said this a few times. If you all want to insist as them being valid tests of audibility of distortions, I am game. Just confirm that and we will see what the future holds.
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
In some fantasy world I would be able to reach out from my home near Lake St Clair across the world and keep people from turning up the volume control on their audio systems so that they create audible IM. The above post is holding me responsible for not being able to do that. This is why I keep talking about having good test proctors, they can keep stuff like that from happening.

Sigh,
coming from the man who goes on about NOT using electronics outside of their threshold (such as comparing 2 amps and one amp is weaker than the other and test then pushed too loud levels)/or "well engineered very similar spec products used within operating parameters" this is rather ironic.
BUT you could had STRESSED the point about levels, especially when you kept on with the narrative that electronics suffer IMD with ultrasonics in general and then provided two test tones with no sub 20khz content and never explained to average listener on AVSF that they must not overdrive/clip their electronics to hear the IMD; even when they mentioned they only heard IMD when played loud you still did not correct them.
So no it is not fantasy but forums where you introduced a test and never set the right criteria, and on top of that coming up with another test that for years has never been passed (jangling keys hirez) but all of a sudden when it is you confound the issue with IMD, which has taken a lot of effort on other peoples part to conclude is not an issue and could had been avoided with consideration by the test creator in the 1st place.

Orb
 
Last edited:

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
I wish this discussion of peak levels would go away, as it does not contribute to any insight. The peak levels on the jingling key part of the test are at an entirely reasonable level. They are where anyone who wanted to investigate the format capability would place the levels, as can be seen by the arguments that would ensure had the peak levels been put lower, e.g. -12 dBfs. If this lower level were used then it would be rightly complained that the comparison was between 44/14 and 96/22. Arny's IM test levels also seem entirely reasonable, as I explain below. I am dismayed that some of the supposedly technical people here don't understand what's going on between peak levels and spectrum as averaged by an FFT. It is not necessary to have any theoretical understanding of the mathematical issues involved if one has practical experience working with audio editors, sample rate converters, etc. and doing digital post production of recordings. (I have the requisite mathematical understanding and I also have hundreds of hours of experience doing digital post production, which I do on a volunteer basis.)

If we look at all of the DSP and analog components in the playback chain downstream of the output of the player (e.g. Foobar playing the result of the PC ABX choice) there are a number of places where there could be IMD distortion. These include any DSP in Foobar (hopefully not used) or DSP in an upsampling DAC. Then there is potential nonlinearity in the DAC itself, and more likely the IV converter and output drivers. Finally there is the preamp / amp and speakers/phones. Audible distortion in any of these might invalidate the test. So let's look at what to do about each of these possible sources.

First, if the problem is in the DAC itself then this can be addressed by editing the 24 bit files and putting them at a lower level. This would add 24 bit dither noise to both files, having the effect of reducing the bit depth of the 16 bit material an insignificant amount but reducing the bit depth of the 24 bit down to, say 22 bits. The result is still interesting: 44/16 vs. 44/22. In the case of my DAC, the Mytek stereo 192 DSD, I run this with digital volume control. The input 24 bits gets converted to 32 bits and then this gets adjusted digitally. The results then go to the upsampling, SD modulator, IV and output buffer. As it turns out my gain staging is such that I have about 10 dB of headroom at the volume setting that I used to playback the files. So the DAC is unlikely to add significant distortion to either file.

What I worried about is my amplifier distortion and my tweeters. So I was reluctant to play the test files at a very high volume level, because I was afraid of burning out my tweeters. In this regard I would have preferred if the IM test segment had been significantly shorter with pause time to allow for cool down. However, I also am familiar with the gain staging of my system and the volume setting that I used to play the test files was one that I occasionally use while listening to music, e.g. Mahler symphonies. So I eventually decided to turn the volume up to this setting, which was still a bit quieter than what actual keys jingling would sound like live (because of the peak to average ratio). My system passed the IM test as expected. (I use Focal Twin 6 BE active monitors which are tri-amped and there is a 100 wpc class AB amplifier on the tweeters. These are set to be rolled off -3.5 dB at a 10 kHz shelf measured at my listening position using a calibrated microphone. This was accomplished using the pack panel controls on the Focals, and was made to that the majority of my record library had a natural high frequency balance, with essentially none of the recordings being either too dull or too bright. In the flat setting, some bright recordings were unlistenable.) I did not change any of these settings for the listening tests.

My concern is not with the test files, which seem entirely reasonable. My concern is not with a reasonable playback chain, which should be able to play the recordings undistorted as given. My concern is with the test tool, specifically the Foobar-PC ABX software. By allowing the user ability to specify the start/stop points of the file it makes it trivial to "game" the system, either intentionally or unintentionally. So when I read that someone used PC ABX and heard a difference, I can not reach the conclusion that they actually heard a difference between the two test files. They could simply have been hearing differences due to switching transients. The PC ABX tool does not provide an adequate control over false positive results. Controls of this type may not be needed if a single hobbyist is conducting a listening test for their own purposes, but as a means of gathering evidence with a chance of convincing others, the tool simply does not cut it. If the possibility of convincing others is not a requirement, then there is really no need for any "objective" tests in the first place.

There is no need for the PC ABX software to have this fault. One way would be to fix the PC ABX software to fade in and out at the start points. Another way would be to remove these buttons from the tool (or operate on the honor system and do all the testing without using these buttons at all.) If this made the testing too hard, then shorter segments could be selected as part of test software and distributed to the group It would then be possible to vet these sequences for artifacts related to start/stop. If I were serious about this test this is precisely what I would do: find a promising short segment, edit it with a fade in / fade out and then test that using PC ABX, playing the complete segment.

Also, if these tests were intended to be a serious scientific experiment they would not have mixed apples and oranges. They would have tested a single aspect of PCM formats, e.g. 44/16 vs 44/24 or 44/24 vs. 96/24.

The problem though Tony is that IMD was being used an excuse for what Amir and the others were picking up, and using the jangling keys as an equal comparison to 0dbfs IM ultrasonic test tones.
This was emphasised more on AVSF than here tbh, and compounded by the test tones used to prove most people's system suffer ultrasonic IM and they now believe anyone passing this test was hearing IMD because the test proved it existed (even though they were clipping their system because they all said about having to turn the volume up to hear the expected-described IMD).
This is compounded that JA did testing to measure several integrated digital DAC-pre-amp-headphone (Meridian and Audioquest USB "pen" products) that showed the 0dbfs ultrasonic tones could cause moderate IMD in the audioband due to near clipping but reducing this closer to -10dbfs the IMD was then negligible, which is closer to the jangling keys in terms of relevant peak but Arny disagrees and still feels it should be compared only to the measurement results at 0dbfs.
But Arny still feels IMD is still what is probably an issue and the cue being identified.

This is why the talk about levels, I appreciate this is made more complex depending upon the product used and whether talking levels in digital or analogue (most pre-amp) domain
Regarding levels when David Griesinger did a similar test back in 2003 with jangling keys (albeit only focusing on hirez and potential effects back in the audioband rather than cd vs hirez) his levels were -12dbfs and -18dbfs (with no sub 20khz content), separately different testing with incremental 6dB IM ultrasonic tones sweep to identify the level dependence of measured distortion for associated electronics and also spectrum sweep with the 2 ultrasonic IM tones.

His own conclusion that I have mentioned in the past regarding the jangling keys:
David Griesinger said:
When the ultrasonic signals only were played at high levels, intermodulation products from the input signals were easily heard - at levels consistent with amplifier distortion
That quote pertains IMD was heard only with sub20khz content removed and near to/actual clipping (appreciate this context here is not about 0dbfs but specific to pre-power amp and the analogue-voltage levels, however the Dragonfly and Meridian Explorer product and others similar to them add a complexity that needs to be considered)

Cheers
Orb
 
Last edited:

esldude

New Member
Well, you accused me of deceiving people with my graph so I imagine you do care at some level in one direction at least.


There is no discussion of the level of keys jingling. Only the hypothesis of IM distortion evidenced by nearly clipping ultrasonics.


That is a system test. It has nothing to do with coming up with an explanation of why positive identification is occurring in the key jingling part. This is Arny's motivation and that is what we are discussing. Arny's argument is that if you are hearing IM distortions in his ultrasonics, then your results are invalidated. That is a very different animal than the justification you are providing.


It is not normal in the context of explaining listening test results.


That is fine. Problem is that Arny is after inverting that. Here is Arny doing that to his own results from AVS Forum:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/28 07:53:00

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

07:53:00 : Test started.
07:54:38 : Trial reset.
07:56:40 : 01/01 50.0%
07:56:55 : 02/02 25.0%
07:57:15 : 03/03 12.5%
07:57:21 : 04/04 6.3%
07:57:27 : 05/05 3.1%
07:57:35 : 06/06 1.6%
07:57:42 : 06/07 6.3%
07:57:55 : 07/08 3.5%
07:58:10 : 08/09 2.0%
07:58:27 : 09/10 1.1%
07:58:35 : 10/11 0.6%
07:58:52 : 11/12 0.3%
07:59:09 : 12/13 0.2%
07:59:15 : 13/14 0.1%
07:59:22 : 14/15 0.0%
07:59:52 : 15/16 0.0%
07:59:59 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)
--------------------------------

Obviously, I'm not going to BS anybody, this was a bogus test. I selected the level and the portion of the track that I actually listened to to maximize the audible difference based on nonlinear distortion in the crappy monitoring system in this PC producing more audible IM with the 2496 test file than with the 4416 file.


See? He is explaining away his positive identification due to IM distortion with these ultrasonic tones. He is not say, "here is the distortion percentage of this system."


Complaining? You mean I can't comment on his hypothesis without it creating an obligation for me to go and create a test to disprove his theory?

As I have said, having these tones "stick" as the right test material is something I can easily take advantage of. I have said this a few times. If you all want to insist as them being valid tests of audibility of distortions, I am game. Just confirm that and we will see what the future holds.

I'll ignore all your innuendos. You seem to have the idea I am some Arny supporter or co-conspirator.

I care about the truth. You keep approaching this as if gaming and winning vs Arny is important. Or as if the reverse is important to prevent. I don't care.

A test of ultrasonic audibility is what would be more interesting. Or of dither audibility. As Mr. Lauck recently suggests and I have done previously, using this file to test only bit depth or only sample rate is a more productive course of action. It seems Arny vs others is something a number here can't let go of. And yes if you don't like Arny's test suggest a better one. You aren't obligated to do so, but it would be a better use of time.
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
I'll ignore all your innuendos. You seem to have the idea I am some Arny supporter or co-conspirator.

I care about the truth. You keep approaching this as if gaming and winning vs Arny is important. Or as if the reverse is important to prevent. I don't care.

A test of ultrasonic audibility is what would be more interesting. Or of dither audibility. As Mr. Lauck recently suggests and I have done previously, using this file to test only bit depth or only sample rate is a more productive course of action. It seems Arny vs others is something a number here can't let go of. And yes if you don't like Arny's test suggest a better one. You aren't obligated to do so, but it would be a better use of time.

TBH some of us also mentioned dither/downsampling-bit decimation over 50 pages ago and testing it.
But IMO until move beyond IMD it is academic as that has unfortunately gained a lot of traction for the wrong reasons and needs to be put to rest, which is seemingly very difficult for a way that Arny accepts even though we have measurements and another study I linked ages ago..
Just my take on seeing how IMD still seems an issue even when proved by several sources and another independent investigation by Griesinger showing it is not, again this is compounded that these specific ABX tests were meant to be created and used historically to show no audible differences exist.

Cheers
Orb
 

arnyk

New Member
Apr 25, 2011
310
0
0
EE? I thought you only had a generic engineering degree Arny, not Electrical Engineering. So there should be one "E" in there, not two :p.

It is true that the university I graduated from had and still has a philosophical problem with graduating mere EEs. EE is short for BSEE and I have a BSE with a focus on EE. Then, I did all the work for a MS with a focus on EE but the thesis project. I also did all of the course work for a BS with a focus on ME and an then IT. I graduated with far more credits than I needed to graduate. Net, net, net, if I claim to be an EE I'm actually understating my formal credentials by quite a bit. Furthermore I've worked professionally as an EE, a ME, and a BS in IT. Enough alphabet soup? ;-)
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
A test of ultrasonic audibility is what would be more interesting. Or of dither audibility. As Mr. Lauck recently suggests and I have done previously, using this file to test only bit depth or only sample rate is a more productive course of action. It seems Arny vs others is something a number here can't let go of. And yes if you don't like Arny's test suggest a better one. You aren't obligated to do so, but it would be a better use of time.
We can't "let go of it." As I explained and Orb just did the same, in this part of the discussion, we are analyzing Arny's hypothesis. Not mine. Not some other random one. But Arny's. You have chimed in on the reasonableness of his test files. And I explained that they are not reasonable in the context of this thread: i.e. dismissing the results of the blind tests.

There is no context under which I am supposed to go and create a test. He has a hypothesis, and is presenting it along with his test tools. I have run his files, did not hear any IM and said the same to him weeks ago. You say you have run the test and heard no IM distortion yet are defending a test as being useful in the explanation of the positive results.

Not telling you there is no history here. But I care about that even less than you do. A technical argument has been put forward and until it is settled, we are going to discuss it. There is no "letting go" when folks like yourself come anew and defend its appropriateness.

Now, if you are saying that you don't think Arny's hypothesis explain the positive results, then come out and firmly say it. That would help us "let it go." Not when new people join the conversation and seemingly provide moral support to the contrary.
 

arnyk

New Member
Apr 25, 2011
310
0
0
Even if you did, you still would not have the full picture. Here is the graph again:



Look at the first set of solid green band on the right where the green arrow ends. That is a 4 Khz tone. I go nearly deaf listening to the key jingling files at "normal" levels when that 4K tone starts to play. So we know subjectively that the single tone 4K is louder perceptually than the rest of the clip. Now compare its levels to the rest of the tones to the right which are ultrasonic. Their amplitude easily dwarf the 4K tone. And here we are comparing single tones to single tones so there should be no other talking point clouding the argument.

The above graph is a fiction of the low magnification being used to display it.

This is the same data with one of the keys jangling peaks enlarged to show the actual level of the samples (shown as dots):

keys jangling peak levels 2.jpg

This is a section of one of the test tones displayed at the same vertical magnifcation:

keys jangling test tone peak levels.jpg

The peak amplitudes differ only by the 1 dB or so that I have been claiming all along.
 

Attachments

  • keys jangling peak levels.jpg
    keys jangling peak levels.jpg
    24 KB · Views: 128

arnyk

New Member
Apr 25, 2011
310
0
0
We can't "let go of it." As I explained and Orb just did the same, in this part of the discussion, we are analyzing Arny's hypothesis.

Please state my current hypothesis, since you seem to know it better than I! ;-)
 

esldude

New Member
We can't "let go of it." As I explained and Orb just did the same, in this part of the discussion, we are analyzing Arny's hypothesis. Not mine. Not some other random one. But Arny's. You have chimed in on the reasonableness of his test files. And I explained that they are not reasonable in the context of this thread: i.e. dismissing the results of the blind tests.

There is no context under which I am supposed to go and create a test. He has a hypothesis, and is presenting it along with his test tools. I have run his files, did not hear any IM and said the same to him weeks ago. You say you have run the test and heard no IM distortion yet are defending a test as being useful in the explanation of the positive results.

Not telling you there is no history here. But I care about that even less than you do. A technical argument has been put forward and until it is settled, we are going to discuss it. There is no "letting go" when folks like yourself come anew and defend its appropriateness.

Now, if you are saying that you don't think Arny's hypothesis explain the positive results, then come out and firmly say it. That would help us "let it go." Not when new people join the conversation and seemingly provide moral support to the contrary.

I ran the test and heard no IMD. I also did not at any point support IMD as being the reason for positive results. I am afraid your obsession with Arny filled in some blanks there. David Griesinger's surprising results that IMD usually only shows up at the low level of electronics instead of transducers is also what I have found (also to my surprise).

I found using specifically Arny's files and my own testing the positive results were the result of the a less than great resampling algorithm. A better resampling made the positives go away. Can't speak for what caused it for others once they resampled. If they haven't resampled that is a possible reason for a positive difference. As for the thread being a discussion about Arny's hypothesis well it changed somewhere along the way. It started as a discussion of your positive results in an ABX test using Arny's files. Apparently I was under a misconception along the way it was about whether a file with high ultrasonic content was audible due to that content. My apologies for being too inattentive to take part in full with a witch-hunt on Arny's hypothesis or dismissing the results of the blind tests.

As for the test file of jangling keys not being a reasonable test we will have to disagree.
 

Tony Lauck

New Member
Aug 19, 2014
140
0
0
My point was that it is completely legitimate to rule out IM distortion and that Arny's IM test was a legitimate test to that effect. It might have placed slightly more stress on one's playback system that the key file, but so what? I will stick my neck out and say that any playback system that failed the IM test is not an adequate playback system, certainly not worthy of "What's Best." If my system had failed the IM test I would have been quite concerned and not worried at all about the resolution of PCM formats or the subjective aspects of PCM format converter software, given I had a broken system. (Such a broken system might be adequate for playback of solo harpsichord music, but not Mahler symphonies.)

As a general scientific principle, one wants to conduct measurements (and that's what these tests are, listening measurements) using equipment that is more precise and accurate than the device under test (in this case the PCM files). The rule of thumb for physical measurements is that the measurement apparatus ought to be 10x better than the device being measured, if possible. In this spirit, having a worst case IM test that was 20 dB more difficult to pass would not be totally out of line, whereas Arny's files were only 1 or 2 db more difficult to pass, measured in terms of headroom to clipping.

In many cases, systems that have head room problems may be fine with a different set up, so it's not necessarily the cause for junking any components if one finds these problems.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing