Catering to the rich not the audiophile

[FrantzM]

I spent most of my life working hard to cater to that exact crowd.

And then I build it.

You know what?

1) No. One. shows. Up.

2) People take a dump on the low price, and say it can't be any good.

3) The target market tries to screw you on THAT already sacrificial price. Trying to 'bargain you down'. Even more.

direct experience says....there's no winning with your target market. I'd directly saying that it is my direct experience of when the best in the world is put in front of people at a world beating price, that the vast majority never see it or understand it. And the rest.. they try to screw you even harder on the 'free/bargain' angle. This is not conjecture or hyperbole. It is multiple case direct experience.

KBK

This is to em an important aspect of our hobby and it is worth debating. IT is not admitted, audiophiles will perhaps sincerely claim that it is not so. We, however, think in term of prices. The higher the price the higher the praise in most instances. I believe that the dump can be even more sneaky, not an in your face dump (if there is such a thing ) but rather a more subtle put down, almost condescending, An expression which I have come to loathe the infamous "for its price" . once that is uttered, the gear true worth is diminished, the audiophile market, already small doesn't perceive it as much more than an "affordable" thus inferior product and the buzz disappear and to me the most consistent damning attitude is that those who were praising the gear, retreat, their praises now a faint hush ...

I honestly am asking this question: How do we reverse that? is it even reversible now that our hobby is squarely a luxury category? How does a brand disrupt the market?

Another important point you make is that of the experience, know-how required to produce gear of quality, what you call rightly "lore". That also has been disrupted by the new technologies of information and communications . The time to learn and to be informed about anything has been dramatically reduced by the pervasiveness of the Internet. Knowledge that was arcane, unavailable of found in only rare books in obscure coners of universities libraries could be available at a few keystrokes. Moreover fora allow people to share knowledge and experience in a way we couldn't dream of 20 years ago. Software, that sometimes are free. help us design, simulate , construct and assemble like never before. Machine are getting more sophisticated and cheaper. CNC machines are getting less expensive by the second. I know there is a substantial difference between knowledge and information but knowledge isnow more available thanbefore and sometimes the sheer number of minds on a problem helps find and then disseminate the solutions even more. The knowledge, the experience ,the Lore gap will very be bridged it won't take very long. It will take a small fraction of the time taken to accumulate these.

on a different subject

I have not heard Emotiva so I can't comment on their sound. I would not judge a gear in a show either. I would however welcome an honest comparison between their top of the line and an Audiophile darling amp. Just to get a fix of where we're headed. I frankly don't see much in electronics except for lateral movements and catering to preferences.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I bet the system is also tax deductable as a " stressreliever" .

So this is what the scumbags at Goldman Sachs do with their bonuses.

So much for the over taxed rich.

On topic , i dont see whats wrong with catering to the rich , here a nice example video :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEl2TjfkxM


Me, i just make what i like, i just try to make the most less annoying loudspeaker possible , i ve thrown overboard most of the "absolute standpoints of LS literature " , a loudspeaker to forget about , is the ultimate goal

 

[audioguy]

I've heard the Emotiva setup at RMAF, and it was, by far, the worst sound of the show. Sure it's cheap, but so is a Marantz, and I'd rather buy that.


alexandre

I heard PipeDreams as multiple different shows (CES's) and in multiple size rooms and they were the most over priced speaker I had ever heard. Pure garbage. Then I heard them at Marty's home (a member here at WBF) and they were one of the two best audio systems I have ever heard.

Shows mean zero (and no, I don't own Emotiva).

Slightly OT but what I really find amazing is a reviewer from TAS will walk into a room at CES and having never heard ANY of the equipment in the room nor ever been in the room, comment about how amazing the amplifier sounds.

 

[asiufy]

audioguy,

Well, I don't agree with you. Shows mean a lot, at least to me. But of course, one must take in consideration the conditions where the gear was exposed. In this case, it was an all-Emotiva room, setup by the company itself. So, no "dealer" to mess things up, as it's so common.

In the same size room where the Emotivas were playing (badly), I've heard excellent systems, playing wonderfully. So, there are two basic things at play here: the gear itself, and the setup knowledge of the folks in the room.

Oh, and yes, it's amazing how some people are able to distinguish the sound of an amp (or player, or turntable, or preamp, etc) in a completely new and unknown system/setup/room. Did you actually hear a reviewer claim that?


alexandre

 

[opus111]

I honestly am asking this question: How do we reverse that? is it even reversible now that our hobby is squarely a luxury category? How does a brand disrupt the market?

If something has already become a brand, its not likely to be disruptive. A brand takes quite a while to set up and market, requiring up-front costs by the bucketload so its more that something becomes a brand after it has already disrupted the market. Disruption typically begins at the bargain basement end of the market where say 80% of the market's required features are offered for 20% of the price. Or alternatively it can begin with a considerably lower spec product which has certain convenience factors the mainstream aren't offering - like the first digital cameras which had way lower resolution and were much more expensive than film ones. Digital cameras though weren't truly disruptive because they all pretty much came from the existing players rather than an outsider muscling in. Clayton Christensen makes the point that if an existing player comes up with a disruptive product they need to ring-fence it at the very least, if not create an autonomous business unit to promote it because otherwise the running business will always tend to get first pick of resources.

 

[flez007]

...
Mexico, I like Mexican food.

Me too!

 

[FrantzM]

audioguy,

Well, I don't agree with you. Shows mean a lot, at least to me. But of course, one must take in consideration the conditions where the gear was exposed. In this case, it was an all-Emotiva room, setup by the company itself. So, no "dealer" to mess things up, as it's so common.

In the same size room where the Emotivas were playing (badly), I've heard excellent systems, playing wonderfully. So, there are two basic things at play here: the gear itself, and the setup knowledge of the folks in the room.

Oh, and yes, it's amazing how some people are able to distinguish the sound of an amp (or player, or turntable, or preamp, etc) in a completely new and unknown system/setup/room. Did you actually hear a reviewer claim that?


alexandre

Hi
One of the few consensus that has been reached in a forum is that, a great performance in a show is a good sign of excellence, but a poor performance in a show doesn't automatically means the gear is poor.
I haven't gone to shows the past 7 years but when I used to go, I have heard my share of gears of distinction sounding badly in poorly set-up rooms. We have discussed such in this forum (too lazy to search for those).

Now I did also marvel when someone talks to me about the performance of a TT in a room or of a cartridge in a show. Speakers I can understand it making all the difference the rest .. mos of he times conjecture and wild assumptions IMHO.

I may have read a reviewer claim that the amps or whatever components (not speakers) were <plug whatever audiophiles term here> while they were in a room in a show .. If I find an example, I will post it here as a P.S.

 

[Andre Marc]

Emotiva used to advertise on Stereophile, right around the same time they got their reviews. Apparently you need to pay 6 months to a year of ads to get the reviews...
Don't know if they still do it, though, don't remember seeing their ads anymore.
Anyway, I've heard the Emotiva setup at RMAF, and it was, by far, the worst sound of the show. Sure it's cheap, but so is a Marantz, and I'd rather buy that.


alexandre

No, you DON'T have to advertise in Stereophile to get a review. A full 50% of the products featured in Stereophile are from non advertisers.

I have never heard Emotiva gear, so I cannot comment on how they sound.

From a marketing perspective, they are selling the dream that you can buy a reference grade component for $300.

In my experience, the "giant killer" myth rarely, if ever lives up to the hype.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Emotiva used to advertise on Stereophile, right around the same time they got their reviews. Apparently you need to pay 6 months to a year of ads to get the reviews...

That is simply not true.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

No, you DON'T have to advertise in Stereophile to get a review. A full 50% of the products featured in Stereophile are from non advertisers.

I have never heard Emotiva gear, so I cannot comment on how they sound.

From a marketing perspective, they are selling the dream that you can buy a reference grade component for $300.

In my experience, the "giant killer" myth rarely, if ever lives up to the hype.

I'm not sure that they claim their products to be "reference", but having heard Emotiva amps many times, I can solidly say they offer more than what others seem to so readily dismiss. Additionally, their pricing for those who cannot afford "reference" of any kind, is a welcome alternative. The industry needs more companies like this.

 

[opus111]

From their website they do say their aim is 'To deliver reference-quality performance, at prices that people could afford again'.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That is simply not true.

I have to say that no matter how much evidence John produces to refute these allegations, the conspiracists continue to make these allegations against Stereophile. And who starts these "rumors?" Where is the evidence? Oh it's a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend..... who heard this from some unidentified manufacturer. But no one has the balls to come forth and speak out. Kind of like those sports locker room stories with an unidentified player....

Now it's a different story if you want to talk about the "above ground" magazines.

 

[mep]

Is it just me or is Emotiva trading off the looks of McIntosh gear to some extent?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

From their website they do say their aim is 'To deliver reference-quality performance, at prices that people could afford again'.

That's not the same as them saying that it is! It's marketing-speak and we all know it. It still doesn't take away from the fact they offer a solid product. And what is "reference" anyway?

 

[opus111]

That's for them to explain, they're using the term 'reference-quality' - marketing is the art of communicating one's business to the market.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

That's for them to explain, they're using the term 'reference-quality' - marketing is the art of communicating one's business to the market.

Well, it seems to be working for them!

 

[asiufy]

I have to say that no matter how much evidence John produces to refute these allegations, the conspiracists continue to make these allegations against Stereophile. And who starts these "rumors?" Where is the evidence? Oh it's a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend..... who heard this from some unidentified manufacturer. But no one has the balls to come forth and speak out. Kind of like those sports locker room stories with an unidentified player....

Now it's a different story if you want to talk about the "above ground" magazines.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a rumour or anything of the sort. I don't really mind if that's the case, it's their magazine. But I've heard the very same thing from different manufacturers, the last time merely a couple of months ago.
My intention was just to point the coincidence between Emotiva running ads and their gear appearing on the pages of the magazine, and given what I heard, I thought it was more of a known thing that apparently it is. So anyway, this is way off topic, I apologise for having brought this up, so let's please drop this.



alexandre

 

[opus111]

Yep, more power to them I say - just its not quite working in the way they describe on their website

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Yep, more power to them I say - just its not quite working in the way they describe on their website

Are you inferring they are making false claims?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont know about stereophile, but in generally speaking it works a bit like that off course whether it be audio cars boats houses whatever, a magazine cant live from the air .

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a rumour or anything of the sort. I don't really mind if that's the case, it's their magazine. But I've heard the very same thing from different manufacturers, the last time merely a couple of months ago.
My intention was just to point the coincidence between Emotiva running ads and their gear appearing on the pages of the magazine, and given what I heard, I thought it was more of a known thing that apparently it is. So anyway, this is way off topic, I apologise for having brought this up, so let's please drop this.



alexandre