Catering to the rich not the audiophile

[NorthStar]

-- Tom, a good example would be a pair of Emotiva Reference XPA-1 Monoblock amplifiers for a total of (both of them) $1,698.00
...And fully differential balanced, with XLR connections.

=> http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa1

 

[mep]

Tom-Good thought, but I don't think we would get amplifiers that sound like top-tier amps sound for $2K.

 

[FrantzM]

Tom-Good thought, but I don't think we would get amplifiers that sound like top-tier amps sound for $2K.

Why not? Is there a technical reason why this is impossible?

 

[opus111]

Its a good question Tom - what's currently happening in the market is that many companies (I don't think all) are chasing those 'easy bucks' which are generated by such customers. This is a textbook example of Disruptive Innovation in action - its all covered in Clayton M Christensen's book - http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Business-Essentials/dp/B003GAN3LE/

Christensen argues (and I can't fault his reasoning) that those kinds of customers are siren voices luring companies to their demise. They're gradually making companies 'unfit' (fitness here in the Darwinian sense, not in the workout in the gym sense). So yes I think chasing such customers as want to pay so much more diverts resources away from R&D (in both product and market understanding) so that, after the bubble bursts, these companies will be left behind and hence perish.

As to whether this ruins things for the less-well-heeled, perhaps only in the shorter term. In the longer term those very well-heeled customers are helping to kill off the more greedy businesses which ultimately drives prices down and quality up for the value conscious ones.

 

[NorthStar]

Tom-Good thought, but I don't think we would get amplifiers that sound like top-tier amps sound for $2K.

Why not? Is there a technical reason why this is impossible?

-- Tom, a good example would be a pair of Emotiva Reference XPA-1 Monoblock amplifiers for a total of (both of them) $1,698.00
...And fully differential balanced, with XLR connections.

=> http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa1

---- No?

 

[Shaffer]

Now, what I am about to say is not exactly on topic, but perhaps of interest here as anywhere else.

Is it possible, that if folks were not willing to spend say more than $2K on an amplifier, that we would end up, having much superior amplifiers more generally affordable and , so , what I am saying is the guys who are willing to pay high bucks for some wires and audio components in a nice shiny hollowed out aluminium box in a way ruining it for the less well heeled....

hopefully you see my point, that is, if the market was not there for insanely priced stuff, competition would increase at a sane price point and more people could benefit.

just sayin, as the thought popped into my mind as i was outside the box.

The biggest issue with this model is the cost of entry for a manufacturer. It's enormous.

 

[opus111]

Is there a technical reason why this is impossible?

I don't think there is, no.

 

[opus111]

The biggest issue with this model is the cost of entry for a manufacturer. It's enormous.

Only for a manufacturer addressing the existing market. Not for one building a new market.

 

[Shaffer]

Only for a manufacturer addressing the existing market. Not for one building a new market.

It's the other way around. An existing market can support the infrastructure, as in the Emotiva example, where production is famed out to an already functioning entity. For a new market, the cost of entry is different by the sheer nature of the beast, like selling at SOTA amplifiers at less than new car prices.

 

[KBK]

Now, what I am about to say is not exactly on topic, but perhaps of interest here as anywhere else.

Is it possible, that if folks were not willing to spend say more than $2K on an amplifier, that we would end up, having much superior amplifiers more generally affordable and , so , what I am saying is the guys who are willing to pay high bucks for some wires and audio components in a nice shiny hollowed out aluminium box in a way ruining it for the less well heeled....

hopefully you see my point, that is, if the market was not there for insanely priced stuff, competition would increase at a sane price point and more people could benefit.

just sayin, as the thought popped into my mind as i was outside the box.

I spent most of my life working hard to cater to that exact crowd.

And then I build it.

You know what?

1) No. One. shows. Up.

2) People take a dump on the low price, and say it can't be any good.

3) The target market tries to screw you on THAT already sacrificial price. Trying to 'bargain you down'. Even more.

direct experience says....there's no winning with your target market. I'd directly saying that it is my direct experience of when the best in the world is put in front of people at a world beating price, that the vast majority never see it or understand it. And the rest.. they try to screw you even harder on the 'free/bargain' angle. This is not conjecture or hyperbole. It is multiple case direct experience.

 

[NorthStar]

-- China, is reshaping the way we think in North America. ...And in Europe too.

With all the goods, and the bads.

 

[opus111]

Emotiva is an interesting one but I don't believe they're totally disruptive - they are still pretty much selling into the existing market, albeit through different channels (direct, rather than through distribution). From what I've seen they're not about true high-end, they're very much a value-for-money proposition.

 

[KBK]

But are/were/is your product ahead of time or niche and therefore not known about?


what about that emotiva outfit that Northstar is on about......

As a manufacturer, I have no comment, good or bad, on anyone else's products. That's kinda how it tends to go.....

 

[NorthStar]

But are/were/is your product ahead of time or niche and therefore not known about?


what about that emotiva outfit that Northstar is on about......

---- Please Tom, do click on that link, check the specs, and read the reviews (from links at the bottom of the page).

Those particular XPA-1 monoblocks are kind of in a class by themselves. ...But the audiophiles who know about them, also know a good value when they see one.

...Just read some more, without missing the important beat. :b

 

[taters]

1. You've cited something commonly called the Ferrari Argument, albeit from a somewhat skewed perspective. Yes, lots of poseurs buy Ferraris. This very act is what allows the few enthusiasts to buy Ferraris, as well; otherwise, the cars would cost too much to produce and/or they would not exist at all. As such, the poseurs are a necessary part of Ferrari's existence.

2. Where in the world do we get the sheer arrogance to demand anything other than a purchase from a perspective customer looking for a fine audio system? Who appointed the few dorks with audio on their brains as guardians of human aural interaction and its associated consumer behavior? Taters, wanna take a shot a this?

3. Obviously, I have no issue with anyone buying whatever they choose. Here is where I do have an issue: It's when someone buys a very expensive audio system and, BANG, he's an instant, experienced audiophile talking to me on the Internet. There's a whole forum like that.

Which forum are you referring to?

 

[KBK]

-- China, is reshaping the way we think in North America. ...And in Europe too.

With all the goods, and the bads.

Yes, I agree. I think that china is saving the audio industry, no matter how we may feel about it. At the same time, the correction is in their hands, not ours, which is probably the part that bugs us the most.

The greater or glaring aspect is that china is the new destitute japan, regarding labour costs. I've had one biz partner of mine go to china and seen people making binding posts on a series of machining stations. Not one automated bit of hardware in sight. This is 50 cent binding posts, at our end of the costs, regarding purchase.

This is inherently detrimental to all involved.

The people making them are killing themselves and getting nothing in return and we're seeing our capacities/experience/lore killed in the process. This is a lose/lose answer to a poorly realized scenario.

 

[NorthStar]

-- That's exactly why I said: "With all the goods, and the bads."

China is no better than anyone, neither America. ...You try to get the good only from them both and mix them together. ...Not an easy task.

 

[KBK]

-- That's exactly why I said: "With all the goods, and the bads."

China is no better than anyone, neither America.

Yes, the consumer sees as far as the given appliance and it's price.... and think they got a bargain. no.

What they have is a piece of of equipment that is not backed in it's component selection and build quality. One that does not have 20-30-40 years of experience behind it's execution/build. thus the lore and knowledge that it takes to make something that WILL last 20 years or more before failure, is not there. OR that it might blow up 2x-3x-4x times as often. This, as the time required to get to that lore level and knowledge level, is not there...yet. You can see this, if you look around ebay, for example.

99% of the folks who buy lets say, a DAC off of eBay have no freaking idea if the AC transformers have ever been tested for UL or CSA approval in appliances in Canada or the US or the UK/European Union.

The answer is that...none of that stuff meets code. NONE. You'd have to have extensive experience in copper, and extensive experience in running the enamel coating hardware, extensive experience in designing the enamel coatings, extensive experience in using said enamels, extensive experience in pulling said finished wires over cores, and about another dozen areas of design and execution, just to make the power transformer..so that it does not burn houses down.

So when you look at these sorts of things... remember, some of them have no experience beyond slapping unknown parts together into a box, with unknown consequences, regarding reliability and liability.

As far as house insurance goes, if you put such things in your house - you are on your own.

 

[NorthStar]

-- True too: Canada, Japan, Italy, Russia, Europe, Germany, ... we're all in the same boat.

 

[KBK]

-- True too: Canada, Japan, Italy, Russia, Europe, Germany, ... we're all in the same boat.

that's true.

But you have a higher chance or greater odds of getting good gear from the west or countries with a current and lengthy history of the lore required to do these things correctly. But again, there is no guarantee.


But, right now, you are near about what, maybe +80% of getting a piece of gear from china that does not have the depth of lore and experience required to pull it off?

Right now, all your gear from the big companies, that manufacture in china... they have western staff there, on site.....that is steeped in lore. Those people...spend their lives, all their energy... keeping the Chinese build companies from screwing up production.