Bottlehead Repro Tube Head Amp vs Cello/King

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
OK, firstly let me clarify some terms:

Single ended is a reference to a type of circuit - it means that shield ground and signal cold are tied together, they are at the same potential. This is opposed to balanced, where the signal cold can float and shield is not necessarily tied to signal cold, that is the signal wiring can "float" or it can be run balanced, i.e. the signal hot and cold are equally spaced from the chassis ground potential.

An XLR is just a type of connector. It can be used for single ended or balanced connections. Another common type of connector is an RCA connector. They can only be used with single ended connections.

In the Tube Repro it happens that we can take a single ended signal (only) out at the second stage of the circuit. This yields a -10dB signal (50dB of gain from a typical tape head), suitable for most home audio gear. The output impedance is a little on the high side at 4000 ohms, so this output may not be best to connect to a passive preamp or a load of less than about 15K ohms. The reason we offer this is that the circuit before this output is direct coupled and there is only one output capacitor in the signal path at this output. Theoretically that means less stuff in the signal path to affect the sound and hence potentially higher resolution. In some systems with enough gain in the budget and with a relatively high input impedance for feeding the Repro into it should work quite well if cables are kept to a reasonable length. In fact that is how I am currently running my own Repro, into a new single ended preamp circuit we are developing.

The balanced output on the Tube Repro comes after that single ended output cap and includes an additional triode and output transformer that can run floating balanced out (meaning the shield is connected only to the chassis, not the transformer secondary). That output is there for 15dB additional gain, up to the +4db standard for studios, and to lower the output impedance to a studio standard 500 ohms so that very long cables can be driven. It also helps when a lower output playback head is used.

Now when you say quiet, again, we need some clarification. Quiet means a lack of noise. But what kind of noise? Hiss? Hum? One must define this before one can discuss the subject at any level of confidence.

Tube hiss is as I already mentioned due quite often to 1/F noise and it will be noted in relation to signal level, i.e. the louder the signal the lower the tube noise in relation to it. So the solution to this is quiet tubes and a preference for a higher output playback head when possible. Single ended vs. balanced outputs used on the preamp won't make any difference.

If the noise we are discussing is hum, then the higher gain outputs can raise the level of any hum coming into the inputs of the repro amp. This can be 60Hz, generally created by AC magnetic fields of power transformers, or 120Hz and higher, generally of electrostatic nature and typically due to ground loops or bad signal or shield grounds. If there is hum coming in ahead of the Repro, trimming the output level of the Tube Repro balanced out down 15dB will result in a similar level of hum and 1/F noise as the single ended output since the later low gain triode stage and output transformer don't contribute anything significant noise-wise. In theory XLR type cables should be more quiet since shield is not usually tied to signal cold and thus external EMI is kept off the signal cold. But there are a zillion ways to rig cables, so there is no one right answer. But for certain getting quiet head cables is paramount to good reel to reel playback, just as it is with tonearm cables and LP playback.

It's also good practice to keep small signal tubes like EF86s away from power transformer magnetic fields, as they can pick up 60Hz this way. So I suggest not stacking a Repro on top of another piece of gear.

Input cabling is only one possible source of hum. The other big issue is ground loops, as audioblazer discovered. This is a particularly tough issue to work through because it is different in every environment. We can have a tape deck and preamp here in the lab that is dead quiet that will suddenly develop a 120Hz buzz in a different room with different wiring, and the only way to work out the issue is by methodically trying every possible combination of ground loop hum reduction. In Song's case we went thorugh a pretty exhaustive checkout of the cable connections to isolate the issue and then determined that in his particular case it was a matter of connecting the ground posts of the two units (that's why they are there, sometimes you need 'em). In some cases we have had to use a cheater plug on the tape transport power cord. And in some cases we have seen technicians fail to understand the that shield of the head cable should not be connected to the tape deck chassis when using an external preamp. We have also experienced a situation where a tech had an intermittent noise problem on their AC that was being generated by a neighbor in their business park - not much we can do to control that! I've also seen a case where the electrician alternated the sockets around a studio between two different circuits, which caused a slight buzz on some midrange drivers that took two years to track down.

This is really just scratching the surface of the subject. After having been the head noise troubleshooter on numerous high end installations at shows and in studios the one thing I am certain of is that every case of noise is solved just a little bit differently.

Oh and a quick final note: you can use both the single ended RCA output and the balanced transformer XLR output of the Tube Repro at once. If the RCA out is running into a relatively low impedance load it may cut the output level down a bit, but no harm will be done.
 
Last edited:

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
We can do some custom mods to a Tube Repro to suit a particular system. I'm happy to discuss the possibilities with folks.
 

audioblazer

Member Sponsor
May 13, 2010
766
208
1,605
Malaysia
For the record Dan was patient enough to help me trouble shoot my hum issue. Even sent me drawing to make sure I understd his instructions clearly. I would said that is a good after sales service and I m not paying anything to modify my Studer for external electronic since I was the 1st person to have the Studer A810 modded by Bottlehead. For those with stock electronic , you ain't have the best out of reel to reel if u don't use external electronic
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,007
515
1,740
Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
For those with stock electronic , you ain't have the best out of reel to reel if u don't use external electronic

Maybe on the A810, but if you have an A80RC or other top notch deck, then I would have to disagree. With extended response heads, I preferred the stock electronics.
 

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
Hi Jay,

I was being not too specific about mods because we get asked for a lot of different things. By mods I mean modifications that are done to the design before we build it. This morning I had a request for:
a natural anodized aluminum front panel - can do
boutique capacitors - can do within certain size limitations. I refuse to install metallized Teflon caps, though Teflon film and foil are fine if they will fit and we use them in a few spots already.
RCA single ended output jack from the transformer output rather than balanced XLR - can do
mod to a different input tube than EF86 - maybe we can do, maybe not. The bias circuit on the input stage is designed around the original EF86 family. Some similar tubes that look like they might generally fit the spec may not bias properly. We can install a servo bias circuit like we use in the Eros kit. It's a little more flexible in terms of tubes that can be used, however it is ever so slightly less resolving. PJ and I chose the EF86 for its gain and its sonic character. Yes, the best ones like Tele EF806S are expensive.

We also get requests for XLR input jacks rather than RCA jacks, different color front panels like black or red, etc.,etc - we can do these
We have had requests for other eq curves - for the most part we can do these. I have a Nagramaster EQ setting on my own Tube Repro, which is connected to a Nagra T Audio.

A logical extension of this is to request RIAA eq for LP playback. We are currently in the process of designing a dedicated phono preamp for archival purposes which will have RIAA EQ plus a range of settings that will allow playback of pre-RIAA microgroove LPs. It will use the same basic preamp circuit, reconfigured slightly to optimize the gain structure for phono cartridge use.

The downside of more radically bespoke creations is that they are not something to be purchased with the notion of auditioning it, deciding it doesn't meet your critirea and returning it for a full refund. At that point it would change from your own brilliant interpretation of our design to a wild idea you talked me into that you will have to sell on your own.
 

jcmusic

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2010
400
6
925
Just Outside New Orleans, La.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the quick reply and info, have you guys tried any other caps for more refinment of the sound from the repro? I may be interested in a color change to my front panel say to black, how much would it cost me?

Jay
 

jdza

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2010
295
257
1,513
This whole outboard repro amp thing continues to baffle me. My experiences with my little Eros test mule is described earlier in this thread. I have been having an issue with overblown bass. I contacted Doc B who suggested some surgery.Planning to do that later I read his post re lifting the earth on the tape transport above. I have no real hum problem but tried it anyway-The result was that the bass snapped into focus at the correct level and the Eros now sound totally different again. I can only scratch my head but one thing is certain-every time I blame the little Bottlehead amp for something I find some set up problem somewhere else.For weeks I was cursing the Eros for measuring so poorly at 10kHz but sounding good while I adjusted the A 80 R repro amp perfectly yet it sounded excruciatingly bright. Turned out my meter had a problem . Another meter and the Eros measured perfectly and the Studer Repro treble could be turned down and sounded great too!
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
Not too long ago I had the privilege of having both the Bottlehead Repro and the King/Cello tape preamps in my home for side by side comparison. My tapes were all played on a Studer A812 with output taken directly from the heads. My preamp/amp combo is the Modwright LS36.5/KWA 150. Speakers are the Von Schweikert VR-9SE's. I listened to some of my best classical and jazz tapes, both from the Tape Project and 2 track pre-records. My final impression was that I could be happy living with either preamp, but there were noticeable differences. The Repro seemed to be better at fleshing out the individual instruments, especially winds. On the other hand, the overall presentation of the King/Cello was better. By that I mean the instruments' positions were more defined, and the sense of the room in which the recording was made was more noticeable. With the King/Cello, I sometimes felt as though I was going to fall into the huge room that was opening out in front of me! As you may be able to tell, I am not an audio reviewer or writer, so I am struggling somewhat to explain what I heard. The best analogy I can give is that the Repro was like having some of my closest, well known friends gathered in the room. I know them very intimately and personally, but can't tell exactly where they are in the room. With the King/Cello there was a group of less well known friends in a larger, well defined room, with assigned seating. Other improvements I noticed with the King/Cello included a more defined bass and a better sense of the musicians actually interacting with each other.

When it finally came down to making a choice, I went with the King/Cello. It was definitely the better of the two with my system in my room. But as I said, I could easily have been happy with the Repro. The one thing I found objectionable about the Repro was the lack of an equalization adjustment. Setting the equalization correctly on the King/Cello made a huge difference in the sound.

Dan

I am doing something that is a little unorthodox to say the least, but it works. I am taking the output from my Otari MX-55 via XLR cables straight into my pair of Ampex 350 repros. The Ampex 350s were designed to for the ouput of tape heads that had very high output compared to modern tape heads. The combination works great together. I wouldn't trade my pair of Ampex 350s for the Bottlehead repro for all the tea in China (or even England). The Ampex 350s are pure dual mono tube repros with outboard tube power supplies and they sound fantastic. The Bottlehead repro has some tubes, but shares a common SS power supply. Plus it has no meters. I just don't see the value for the money they are charging. Factor in the complaints people have about the problems they experienced when using them and you have to raise some eyebrows. Another plus for the Ampex 350s is they really look cool too IMO. One of these days I will own a Studer deck and will see if I can pull the same stunt that I did with the Otari MX-55 by feeding the output straight into the 350s without any bad side effects. Of course it would be cool to modify the 350s so they could take modern tape heads straight in with the proper gain and bypass the SS output stage of the deck being used. For the here and now, the combo I am using sounds so good I don't want to mess with it. The sad thing is that I believe most people who are buying 350s and driving the price up over time are using them mainly as microphone preamps and not as tape repro units. I wish more people with good decks could hear them and share their feelings about them. I don't know if we will ever see another pair of pure tube dual mono repros that come close to the sound of the Ampex 350s.



Mark

Dan's anology of the room is spot on. I would have thought that the outcome between the repro and the Cello would have been reversed though. Because my experience is that when listening to tape preamps the tubed version produce a more holographic image.

The first thing I would do is star ground the unit. I do that with all my equipment except the ones that are star grounded already. If that didn't make a significant difference then I would say that one is just a better design,maybe that's too harsh a judgement.

I found the discussion on the Ampex 350's enjoyable. Not much is written about them anymore and I guess that's because there are so few in service in the audio community. Considering I have in house both Ampex and Studer, the 350 is by far the best at recreating the recorded event. Now the 350 is rolled off a little at both extremes, and that can be remedied. But it is one of the best at producing or sounding like the original event. In plain english it is magical. If I could explain what it is,think of it as having a blank piece of paper in front of you. Now draw in the lines to produce a 3D image and then add shading and then fill in all the objects with the right spacing,much like a art masterpiece. Add in a scary sense of quiet,that enables sound to have real "pop" and you have what I consider a great tape preamp.

If either the cello or the repro can come close to that then I think their both very good preamps.

Maybe some day I can audition one of them. Now though I like the ability to use the electronics for both playback and recording.

Great thread.
 
Last edited:

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the quick reply and info, have you guys tried any other caps for more refinment of the sound from the repro? I may be interested in a color change to my front panel say to black, how much would it cost me?

Jay

Hi Jay,

I would need to know when you bought your Tube Repro to be able to say what might be an interesting cap change, and also what it might cost for the front panel. We have used different caps in a couple of locations as the design has matured. Regarding the front panel it would help to know if this is a current production unit or one of the early ones. That will have some small bearing on the actual cost of making the plate. The earlier plates also had a little different mounting setup for the internal components and that might make a difference in labor. I can talk to our tech PB who builds these units and get an estimate once I have a better idea of the "vintage" of your preamp.
 

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
I have no real hum problem but tried it anyway-The result was that the bass snapped into focus at the correct level and the Eros now sound totally different again. I can only scratch my head

Hi Johan,

Glad the problem seems solved. I was a little perplexed this morning when you told me that you were seeing what seemed to be a head bump on a Flux head. When we cooked up the Tube Repro design PJ and I spent a fair amount of time working with Greg Orton to make it work well with his heads. Typically a Tube Repro and Flux head combo is quite flat. I'll have to cogitate a bit on why the shield connection affected the 100Hz level of the test tape. My hunch is that the shield was somehow tying the internal playback electronics to the external electronics.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
BTW Dan, nice to see you over here :)
 

stellavox

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
285
62
1,583
I am enjoying this discussion immensely.

As indicated back in my first posting to this thread, I wouldn't have begun an endeavor to make a preamp available if I didn't think it sounded very good to me and "better" than other units - to MY ears through MY system. The pathway since then (in the larger world) has highlighted a few things - like sonic differences (biases?) between tubes and solid state. And differences between measured results and what I hear. And that once you outboard playback electronics; it definitely isn't "plug n' play" anymore - bugaboos exist with cabling, ground loops and RFI.

If in fact, our goal is for some to make available and for others to enjoy "What's Best" in sound reproduction, then let's continue working together in this endeavor. My goal happens to be "to serve the music".

Charles
 

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
Hi Myles,

Nice to be here, and thanks for the invite!

Hi Charile,

Kinda stings when a competitor talks down your product, huh. I apologize for resorting in kind to your disparaging comments in order to make my point with you. Showing the professionalism to pursue the sale of your product on its own merit is "what's best" in my experience. I would be happy to have you as a competitor rather than having to perceive you as an antagonist.
 

stellavox

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
285
62
1,583
Hey Doc

Great to have you here - with your insight - especially that the thread appears to be about you and me (toe to toe).

Just to make things clear - from my perspective anyway: if you look at the context of the messages AT THE TIME, (I'll think) you'll see that there were a "flurry" of comments regarding tube noise. My response was (in my mind anyway) to acknowledge that certain folks were experiencing the problem and ask one of the posters (don't actually remember whom) if he had solved his problem and how it turned out. My intent was not to "talk down or disparage" your product in any way.

Charles
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Great to have you here - with your insight - especially that the thread appears to be about you and me (toe to toe).

Just to make things clear - from my perspective anyway: if you look at the context of the messages AT THE TIME, (I'll think) you'll see that there were a "flurry" of comments regarding tube noise. My response was (in my mind anyway) to acknowledge that certain folks were experiencing the problem and ask one of the posters (don't actually remember whom) if he had solved his problem and how it turned out. My intent was not to "talk down or disparage" your product in any way.

Charles

Good now that that's settled...I know you two have a lot to contribute to the forum! :) Dan and Charlie have a wealth of knowledge about electronics and reel to reel decks--and I've been the beneficiary of both.
 

Doc B.

New Member
Aug 31, 2010
32
0
0
OK, I'll attempt to pull this back to something of potential interest for everyone. When we decided to try this notion of scabbing an external preamp into an existing tape deck with its own playback electronics we soon realized that it can be a can 'o' worms. Probably my biggest blunder was blithely suggesting that a competent tech just about anywhere could perfom the seemingly simple surgery necessary to disconnect the playback head from the internal circuit and add some jacks to the head cables. Several techs went out of their way to prove me wrong resulting in some rather flustered tape deck owners so I'll attempt to share what we have learned here.

Here's some things to consider when thinking about doing this (it's not that hard, but it does take some common sense):

There are three possible connections for each channel on the head - signal hot, signal cold and shield. On some decks a coax cable is used to connect the head to the preamp (Otari MX-5050 for example). In these cases the shield and signal cold are one - the outside foil of the cable. On some decks a shielded twisted pair cable (the preferred choice) is used (Technics RS1500 for example). Here there are two wires surrounded by a separate shield that is typically foil or braided wire.

In all cases that shield needs to be connected to the chassis of preamp that the head is playing through, and not the tape deck chassis or the internal preamp. If you think about a cartridge/tonearm cable/phono preamp setup it uses the same rationale, we are attempting to keep the relative potential between the signal wires and the shield constant and at the same potenial as the signal ground in the preamp. What we have seen is the shield being left connected to the tape deck chassis as a way to connect it to the internal preamp shield. This is almost always going to cause hum problems with the external preamp.

Another bad idea is leaving the internal preamp connected to the head and just splicing in more cable to a set of external jacks. The internal preamp needs to be completely disconnected from the head when the external preamp is connected to it. ( I know, I know, it's obvious to a lot of you, but I've seen it done) If a switch is installed so you can switch between internal and external preamps you can't just switch the hot pole. You must switch both hot and cold, and once again the shield should only be connected to the preamp that it is playing through if the cabling is coax.

The shield should go right up to the head or the shield can around the head/headblock. A playback head contains coils that specialize in responding to electromagnetic stimulus. You need to keep the head and any wires going into it shielded from the EM that you don't want to pick up. So try not to disturb any existing shielding near the head when you make any mods. Probably the most tricky situtaion we've run into was on Song's A810. The shields for the head cables are springs - not easy to connect any additional shielding to. We ended up wrapping the springs with 3M copper tape with conductive adhesive and soldering the shield to the tape.

Routing of that head cable is critical too. You really don't want the head cable passing nearby motors and other electromagnetically noisy stuff inside the deck. On that Studer we routed the cables just under the top bezel on the front side of the cast chassis and away from the noisy stuff in back. On a Technics we run the cable pretty much as it runs in stock form, ditto on an MX-5050. (Oh yeah, older MX-5050s are wired pin 3 hot on the XLRs, You might want to switch to pin 2 hot if you reclaim an XLR on the back).

The cable from deck to the external preamp should be a low capacitance design. It's also important to consider the shield connection at each end of it. If you use a cable that has the shield attached the jack shell at only one end you may experience a break in the shield that creates hum.

Ok, so you've done all this stuff supposedly right and you still get hum or buzz. Now what? Well, 120Hz buzz means you have ground loop issue. Sometimes you have to separate two items and sometimes you have to tie two items together to get rid of it. Connecting a wire between the deck and the preamp can sometimes help even though this seems counter to what I have mentioned above. If that deosn't help, sometimes using a cheater plug on the tape deck power supply cord can help. I have to do the usual disclaimer here - you are not supposed to use cheater plugs, do so at your own risk, you have been warned. Oh yeah, also make sure your light dimmers are turned off.

60Hz means you are picking up a magnetic field from a power transformer. Try moving the preamp away from any power transformers on other pieces of gear.

Hopefully that covers a few of the more obvious things to consider when wiring a deck for external preamp use.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing