Actually, withe trios, I liked the density the bass horns were creating even at low volumes for chamber and vocals, and how easily they swung up and down. The best thing about good horns is even at low volumes they do transients, pppp to ffff, very smoothly and effortlessly. I think a better place than the AG factory to audition the trios is Geoffrey Armstrong (Sound Galleries) home in Monaco, which is a 6m * 5m normal living room space housing the trios, and can be heard with relatively average priced electronics, like Oppo, Tom Evans, Audiopax etc if one chooses to. Yet sounds excellent, fit it and forget it.
Best Horn Speaker under $250K?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Actually, withe trios, I liked the density the bass horns were creating even at low volumes for chamber and vocals, and how easily they swung up and down. The best thing about good horns is even at low volumes they do transients, pppp to ffff, very smoothly and effortlessly. I think a better place than the AG factory to audition the trios is Geoffrey Armstrong (Sound Galleries) home in Monaco, which is a 6m * 5m normal living room space housing the trios, and can be heard with relatively average priced electronics, like Oppo, Tom Evans, Audiopax etc if one chooses to. Yet sounds excellent, fit it and forget it.
I can testify to Blue's comments re the AGs, having heard his Duos sound evolve over a couple of years
His carefully matched system shows to me at least that there is good coherency btwn the Duos mids horn and dynamic woofer bass
Sure, the Cessaro Liszt w it's front loaded Basshorns sounds somewhat more organic in the low end, but for music that stretches to poorly recorded rock, prog, fusion, electronica, Alt etc, I truly believe the Duos could be in the sweet spot
Certainly way in front of Trios w 242 subs, Animas, Pnoe etc
My investigations for any horns purchase are going to involve the Duos Mezzos XD and Sadurni Acoustics Miracolis w 110 Hz upper bass horns option and additional tapped horn subs, a combination about the same price at £30k-£35k
His carefully matched system shows to me at least that there is good coherency btwn the Duos mids horn and dynamic woofer bass
Sure, the Cessaro Liszt w it's front loaded Basshorns sounds somewhat more organic in the low end, but for music that stretches to poorly recorded rock, prog, fusion, electronica, Alt etc, I truly believe the Duos could be in the sweet spot
Certainly way in front of Trios w 242 subs, Animas, Pnoe etc
My investigations for any horns purchase are going to involve the Duos Mezzos XD and Sadurni Acoustics Miracolis w 110 Hz upper bass horns option and additional tapped horn subs, a combination about the same price at £30k-£35k
Jorge of Sadurni is fully aware of the issues at the NJ demo, and any purchase from me will be factory direct
My aim is to travel to Sadurni in Texas to hear various combinations of Miracoli main horns and ABW tapped horn subs, and compare to the new Zu Experiences flagships when I visit Utah
At $30-35k for all these options, certainly within affordability
My aim is to travel to Sadurni in Texas to hear various combinations of Miracoli main horns and ABW tapped horn subs, and compare to the new Zu Experiences flagships when I visit Utah
At $30-35k for all these options, certainly within affordability
It was good to hear from Jorge of Sadurni that at a recent show, one of the most respected figures in the industry w his own audiophile recording label returned on multiple occasions to audition the Miracolis and expressed positive comments
In my private discussions w Jorge, he's laying out a lot of the engineering choices he's had to make, and I'm particularly enamoured with his decision to include an Upper Bass Horn to X over to the sub bass at 110 Hz v much like the AG Trios, and his wrangling of tapped horn direct servo bass to smoothly integrate w the horns down to 20Hz
In my private discussions w Jorge, he's laying out a lot of the engineering choices he's had to make, and I'm particularly enamoured with his decision to include an Upper Bass Horn to X over to the sub bass at 110 Hz v much like the AG Trios, and his wrangling of tapped horn direct servo bass to smoothly integrate w the horns down to 20Hz
Hi Big,
If you were not " down under"
I could easily show you how good my new Duo Mezzo XD sound at low volume, no listening fatigue even during long sessions. It was my concern in the beginning but now when speakers are fully burned in and with new PC and usb cable for my DAC I am more than satisfied.Happy New Year
Well, Big Dog is in the same city as me. And there are at least 3 Avantgarde based systems here that I am aware of. The closest one is 3 minute drive from where I live
Well, Big Dog is in the same city as me. And there are at least 3 Avantgarde based systems here that I am aware of. The closest one is 3 minute drive from where I live
Melbourne - Avantgarde City?
Happy New Year, Keith
PS Acapellas are not bad either
I (and Matej, of Mono and Stereo) loved listening to jazz on the Credenza, the model below the Masterhorn, in Munich this year. (For the record bonzo75 and spiritofmusic were in perfect agreement on not liking the Credenza at all -- they would have walked out in the first five minutes had I not asked them to stay.)
I have never heard the Masterhorn, but I believe Matej continues to rank it as one of his very favorite speakers of all time.
Thank you Ron, look forward to hear them in Munich this year, if exposed of course.
Happy New Year, RJ! I am glad you are enjoying your 'stats, tubes and turntable!
There certainly are several different possible objectives of high-end audio, but wouldn't recreating a "live band right in front of you, with nearly the same live effects" be a good achievement?
Hi Big,
If you were not " down under"
Happy New Year
+1
Horns (again with poor auditions) do not fatigue any more than a stat or dynamic speaker. What i find to be most interesting when people demo horns is their desire to turn up the volume to much louder listening levels than what they do with their own speakers.
This is the main cause of the "fatigue" people associate with horns. And of course the usual bad room, electronics, etc
Just as a thought maybe horns with wooden horns might tend to be a shade less emphatic than the composite fibreglass types and that can bring just a bit more warmth and resonance from the wood and softens back the emphatic dynamics just a bit. I've heard both types sound good but thought that wooden horns to be just a bit more forgiving of any tendency to exaggerate the attack and make for less potential for being fatiguing.
Also as Bonzo often points out with horns the real magic seems to begin with the larger full range horns... and for me only with amps that tend to be single ended and the more natural lucid types with exceptional tonality and presence.
I'm figuring the Aries Cerat horns given their approach are more likely to be the type that would be appealing and natural and probably not likely to be fatiguing in their presentation. Not to mention being also fairly wonderous looking musical beasties.
Also as Bonzo often points out with horns the real magic seems to begin with the larger full range horns... and for me only with amps that tend to be single ended and the more natural lucid types with exceptional tonality and presence.
I'm figuring the Aries Cerat horns given their approach are more likely to be the type that would be appealing and natural and probably not likely to be fatiguing in their presentation. Not to mention being also fairly wonderous looking musical beasties.
Read the comment from RJ about horns being fatiguing ..
Well that is too much of a broad statement. THere could be many reasons for it. For starters as pointed by Believe, in horn demos, most demonstrators seem to be bent on showing off horns often startling dynamics... and often for these demonstrators "dynamic" is the ability to play loud... and there horns can assault you in ways no other type of speakers can't . The better horns are too capable of blowing ridiculously high SPL to your ears with no distortion .. but the SPL is high to very high and this will be fatiguing ...
The other things are bad electronics or source or inadequate system matching. There also you will hear many things that you wouldn't with less sensitive speakers...
However the better horns have a sweetness that while acurate remains most interesting. If one could get the prejudice under check and go audition the JBL S9900 and other S9700 or M9500 would tell them how soft these speakers can play and remain clear. On the ppp they surpass even ESL. On the pppp they have no peers and the interesting thing is they remain linear from pppp to ffff if the electronics allow that .. many don't ... especially the flea powered thing that many tend to associate with horns ... when comes the time for 30 watts an 8 watts flea-amp distorts .. people may like the distortion but in the long term it creates fatigue. Strangely enough and some may have experienced it. Matching horns with medium to high power amps is most interesting and rewarding.
Still don't think in term of $250K horns when there is so much great stuff available for much less ... fraction of that plum quarter of a million dollars. We tend to associate high performance with unending flight to higher and prices: $250K?!? ... Really
Well that is too much of a broad statement. THere could be many reasons for it. For starters as pointed by Believe, in horn demos, most demonstrators seem to be bent on showing off horns often startling dynamics... and often for these demonstrators "dynamic" is the ability to play loud... and there horns can assault you in ways no other type of speakers can't . The better horns are too capable of blowing ridiculously high SPL to your ears with no distortion .. but the SPL is high to very high and this will be fatiguing ...
The other things are bad electronics or source or inadequate system matching. There also you will hear many things that you wouldn't with less sensitive speakers...
However the better horns have a sweetness that while acurate remains most interesting. If one could get the prejudice under check and go audition the JBL S9900 and other S9700 or M9500 would tell them how soft these speakers can play and remain clear. On the ppp they surpass even ESL. On the pppp they have no peers and the interesting thing is they remain linear from pppp to ffff if the electronics allow that .. many don't ... especially the flea powered thing that many tend to associate with horns ... when comes the time for 30 watts an 8 watts flea-amp distorts .. people may like the distortion but in the long term it creates fatigue. Strangely enough and some may have experienced it. Matching horns with medium to high power amps is most interesting and rewarding.
Still don't think in term of $250K horns when there is so much great stuff available for much less ... fraction of that plum quarter of a million dollars. We tend to associate high performance with unending flight to higher and prices: $250K?!? ... Really
Yes, a different material might work to make them sound warmer, not sure. But them they wouldn't look as cool as those shiny fibre glass or polymer resins they use, with those automotive colours, just stunning!
Marslow- I agree with you. What I meant was most horn systems I've heard were either over-powered for my listening tastes. Hey, I'm a old bugger who likes to enjoy his cigars and scotch, and just relax to music, not having to jump out of my seat mate. Hence, the reason why I'm addicted to that Quad sound but now actually prefer Martin Logan's. I also learned that by using lower powered amps with horns, especially AG's, they do sound more musical than compared to high powered amps. For example, the chap who had the massive Trio Omega's, used to power them with huge 400w tube monoblocks by Melos (company shut down). He was using these massive Melos amps when he had the Maggies (MG3.5/R) which I bought off him at the time, and I was using big Manley 350w monoblocks. After which he got a small lovely 300B from Golden Tube Audio- very nice with his Trio's, absolute pleasure to listen to! Rated at just 20w of SET Class A, far more musical compared to the mighty Melos amps, this is the point I was making.
Ron- no doubt recreating the live event is wonderful and probably the ultimate goal. However, a live band to me is fully "amplified and very annoying." And this is what most high powered horns can do, especially AG's with their massive spherical horn designs coupled with huge bass drives- full of power and solid dynamics.
What I prefer is that small live performance of small intimate jazz ensembles, where hardly anything is amplified, if at all just perhaps the piano or singer. My reference point is the live event that I have experienced on numerous occasions during my student days in Chicago. Having been a regular attendee at Frankie's Blue Room and The Green Mill. There were other small places located in basements, with small groups of either trio's (piano, bass & drums) or a quartet of with the additional trumpet or sax, plus a singer, playing wonderful smooth tunes listenable for endless hours. This has been my reference point to date, I'm not sure whether Frankie's blue room still exists but that sound was like no other!
The Quad's gave me this effect to a certain extent and now the Martin Logan's are just there! That sound is very hard to recreate in the home, unless you have that amplifier to speaker matching to near perfection, and I think I have achieved that to a great extent.
After many travels and living anywhere where there are good universities, having ventured into these live performances and last year experiencing the following people live in Melbourne- George Benson, Casandra Wilson, Diana Krall, and Kurt Elling, the sound and staging were just superb! I then realised that large amplification is not required for that intimate playback. What works for me is proper setup with moderate power, providing speakers are quite efficient, and critical listening position along with a living and breathing room. Not just a dead room, rather one that allows cross wind from front to back with some sort of windows or doors to open. Although these many settings I've been to were basements, there were always exit doors kept open for ventilation along with windows overlooking either a pier or main sidewalks. The air created was allowed to move freely, and not get stuck in certain spots, and this is the typical kind of room that Kostas has at his place with the CLX's set up.
Also a very similar setup of a fairly large room which I had back in home town, Colombo. Large open space with the lounge and French windows to open at both front and back. Hence, the maggies sounded awesome with those Manley monoblocks. I now try to arrange a similar config with the existing place but it is still a shoe box with just about adequate space for the Ethos. However, I know for a certain fact they would marvellous given more space and proper set up. For now the performance takes me right back to those live events in those basements and special locations across Chicago, simply superb!
Keith- nice to hear from you after a while. I actually do like your system mate, especially those Cary amps. I think they do bring out the best of your horns, plus deliver a special musical factor for Classical music. Again, I am referring to that sweet SET sound with horns, as I sincerely think this recreates that musical bliss compared to much larger amps. Having efficiency of way over 102dB, I cannot possibly think why anyone would require 100's of watts to power horn systems. Again, are they recreating the actual event, or are they trying to emulate some artificial effects that are not even found on the recording to begin with...
I Guess it's all a matter of personal tastes. Whiles my car was being serviced this morning, I was walking along Smith Street and bumped into a record shop. Picked up two LP's, one form Ray Brown (something for Lester) and the other Miles David (Round about midnight), I will be definitely spinning those LP's tonight and will most probably go back to those Chicago days... better take it easy with the cigars and scotch though!
A big wonderful deep woof to all for 2017! Cheers maties,
RJ
Marslow- I agree with you. What I meant was most horn systems I've heard were either over-powered for my listening tastes. Hey, I'm a old bugger who likes to enjoy his cigars and scotch, and just relax to music, not having to jump out of my seat mate. Hence, the reason why I'm addicted to that Quad sound but now actually prefer Martin Logan's. I also learned that by using lower powered amps with horns, especially AG's, they do sound more musical than compared to high powered amps. For example, the chap who had the massive Trio Omega's, used to power them with huge 400w tube monoblocks by Melos (company shut down). He was using these massive Melos amps when he had the Maggies (MG3.5/R) which I bought off him at the time, and I was using big Manley 350w monoblocks. After which he got a small lovely 300B from Golden Tube Audio- very nice with his Trio's, absolute pleasure to listen to! Rated at just 20w of SET Class A, far more musical compared to the mighty Melos amps, this is the point I was making.
Ron- no doubt recreating the live event is wonderful and probably the ultimate goal. However, a live band to me is fully "amplified and very annoying." And this is what most high powered horns can do, especially AG's with their massive spherical horn designs coupled with huge bass drives- full of power and solid dynamics.
What I prefer is that small live performance of small intimate jazz ensembles, where hardly anything is amplified, if at all just perhaps the piano or singer. My reference point is the live event that I have experienced on numerous occasions during my student days in Chicago. Having been a regular attendee at Frankie's Blue Room and The Green Mill. There were other small places located in basements, with small groups of either trio's (piano, bass & drums) or a quartet of with the additional trumpet or sax, plus a singer, playing wonderful smooth tunes listenable for endless hours. This has been my reference point to date, I'm not sure whether Frankie's blue room still exists but that sound was like no other!
The Quad's gave me this effect to a certain extent and now the Martin Logan's are just there! That sound is very hard to recreate in the home, unless you have that amplifier to speaker matching to near perfection, and I think I have achieved that to a great extent.
After many travels and living anywhere where there are good universities, having ventured into these live performances and last year experiencing the following people live in Melbourne- George Benson, Casandra Wilson, Diana Krall, and Kurt Elling, the sound and staging were just superb! I then realised that large amplification is not required for that intimate playback. What works for me is proper setup with moderate power, providing speakers are quite efficient, and critical listening position along with a living and breathing room. Not just a dead room, rather one that allows cross wind from front to back with some sort of windows or doors to open. Although these many settings I've been to were basements, there were always exit doors kept open for ventilation along with windows overlooking either a pier or main sidewalks. The air created was allowed to move freely, and not get stuck in certain spots, and this is the typical kind of room that Kostas has at his place with the CLX's set up.
Also a very similar setup of a fairly large room which I had back in home town, Colombo. Large open space with the lounge and French windows to open at both front and back. Hence, the maggies sounded awesome with those Manley monoblocks. I now try to arrange a similar config with the existing place but it is still a shoe box with just about adequate space for the Ethos. However, I know for a certain fact they would marvellous given more space and proper set up. For now the performance takes me right back to those live events in those basements and special locations across Chicago, simply superb!
Keith- nice to hear from you after a while. I actually do like your system mate, especially those Cary amps. I think they do bring out the best of your horns, plus deliver a special musical factor for Classical music. Again, I am referring to that sweet SET sound with horns, as I sincerely think this recreates that musical bliss compared to much larger amps. Having efficiency of way over 102dB, I cannot possibly think why anyone would require 100's of watts to power horn systems. Again, are they recreating the actual event, or are they trying to emulate some artificial effects that are not even found on the recording to begin with...
I Guess it's all a matter of personal tastes. Whiles my car was being serviced this morning, I was walking along Smith Street and bumped into a record shop. Picked up two LP's, one form Ray Brown (something for Lester) and the other Miles David (Round about midnight), I will be definitely spinning those LP's tonight and will most probably go back to those Chicago days... better take it easy with the cigars and scotch though!
A big wonderful deep woof to all for 2017! Cheers maties,
RJ
Ah, amplified and very annoying I totally understand and agree with! I was thinking originally that you meant unamplified acoustic live -- hence my question.
Very true. GIven the very nice video AG did it is a very big surprise that they would ignore the resonance and coloration using the attractive fiber/resin to get the best horn speaker. Real men use heavy woods or mdf and problem goes away.
Just as much as there is a following in SET amps there is also a following in using higher powered amps when a SET would do. By having more than enough power can keep the amplifier way below the clipping point and thus lower any chance of the amplifier distorting due to the load. A very wise practice, but only really necessary because a lot of lowered powered amps get saturated really quickly.
The funny thing that people miss WRT >98db+ senstive speakers is that you are not hearing the "first watt" you are actually in milliwatt territory in most cases. The higher power is not a factor of inferior sound but the the design. If you don't like the first watt you are not going to like the 2nd, 3rd, 20th, 100th, etc. The real advantage with the lowered powered amps is the designer can focus more on the circuit and less on the power with tends to lead to a better design.
I have never heard of a speaker having too much power. The whole speaker = window analogy is one of the worst ones abused along with straight-wire-with-gain. People forget speakers have load and efficiency and less doesn't equal more when it comes to amp design for the sake of having "less complication in the signal path". In most cases it as a marketing excuse to design a cheaper amps.
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