Best Horn Speaker under $250K?

[FrantzM]

Testing in different rooms with different amps benefiting from the different learnings if different people will teach you much more than setting it up in your room with your limited space and amp budget

Operative word is "teach" here... From there to "denounce" is a stretch. I have also learned from listening to other people system. I have formed opinions. So have you they remain that "opinion". Not much else . With all the vagaries and imprecision of our physiologies and psychologies. Let's keep that in perspective.

 

[bonzo75]

Operative word is "teach" here... From there to "denounce" is a stretch. I have also learned from listening to other people system. I have formed opinions. So have you they remain that "opinion". Not much else . With all the vagaries and imprecision of our physiologies and psychologies. Let's keep that in perspective.

Sure, at least my opinions are formed after actual listening and stress testing, while most others are from extrapolation. Hope that makes you happy

 

[jeff1225]

Sure, at least my opinions are formed after actual listening and stress testing, while most others are from extrapolation. Hope that makes you happy

This is exactly how I feel about people knocking speakers like Avantgarde when they heard them 20 years ago. These designs are not static, they have been refined significantly over the last two decades.

But it's the internet, people will comment about anything and everything whether they have listened to something or not.

 

[microstrip]

Well most, if not all, the arguments are with the people who haven't heard the systems or components I am specifically mentioning, but they are using some weird extrapolation technique to denounce the systems I rate. In my case, I only denounce what I have stress tested

It is mostly why I read and enjoy your posts on the systems YOU have listened to. IMHO subjective extrapolation and generalization is a meaningless exercise in this hobby.

 

[microstrip]

This is exactly how I feel about people knocking speakers like Avantgarde when they heard them 20 years ago. These designs are not static, they have been refined significantly over the last two decades.

But it's the internet, people will comment about anything and everything whether they have listened to something or not.

For a longtime I considered that I did not like Avantgarde - they were always playing poorly in shows, with low power SETs in inadequate rooms and poor digital. Then one day I listened to an Avantgarde system sounding fantastic - great dynamics, natural and almost electrostatic seamless. I can easily believe that in an adequate room audiophiles can easily assemble similarly or better sounding systems that this one with AvantGarde speakers.

 

[jeff1225]

For a longtime I considered that I did not like Avantgarde - they were always playing poorly in shows, with low power SETs in inadequate rooms and poor digital. Then one day I listened to an Avantgarde system sounding fantastic - great dynamics, natural and almost electrostatic seamless. I can easily believe that in an adequate room audiophiles can easily assemble similarly or better sounding systems that this one with AvantGarde speakers.

Yes Avantgardes are a strange bird. I had several amps with them, lower power tube and every First Watt low powered solid state. The best sounding was the Pass X350.5 which I had left over from another system with less efficient speakers.

 

[Keith_W]

I have heard quite a few Avantgarde systems, but my impressions were formed when I very nearly bought a pair. I rang the dealer to make an appointment, and told him what my requirements were. I flew over there, and turned up at the dealer at the appointed time. He had set up a pair of beautiful white Avantgarde Duo's with an Audio Note 8W SET amp. It didn't take me long to realize I didn't like the sound - I thought it was muddy, slow, and just plain unappealing. I thanked him for his time and got up to leave, when he rushed over and said not to judge them just yet, he wanted to try another amplifier. So I walked around the shop for 30 minutes (it was a VERY LARGE shop!). When I returned, he had a Graaf OTL connected and warmed up.

Wow, what a difference! The muddiness had gone, and the speaker had much better clarity and dynamics. I was pretty wowed by it, and would have bought it ... had I not heard an even better speaker when I was on the same trip.

But this experience told me that Avantgardes are very sensitive to quality amplification. Despite their supposed high efficiency, they actually do like a bit of power. I have seen some people make the mistake of trying to pair an Avantgarde with flea powered amps. This may be why they don't sound very good.

 

[sbo6]

I've heard some expensive horns and I haven't heard a pair I loved let alone at 250K. They never seem to get everything right; most are hybrid designs which seems to further complicate driver synergy. So I guess my answer is none.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is mostly why I read and enjoy your posts on the systems YOU have listened to. IMHO subjective extrapolation and generalization is a meaningless exercise in this hobby.

+1 on bonzo75

(Except I have auditioned components with bonzo a sufficient number of times, and discussed after-audition reports with bonzo so frequently, and we discovered that we have the same impressions of certain components that, in this unique case, I feel I can understand and triangulate on some aspects of certain components which bonzo has auditioned even if I have not heard them myself.)

 

[sbo6]

+1

(Except I have auditioned components with bonzo a sufficient number of times, and discussed after-audition reports with bonzo so frequently, and we discovered that we have the same impressions of certain components that, in this unique case, I feel I can understand and triangulate on some aspects of certain components which bonzo has auditioned even if I have not heard them myself.)

Meaning you have like tastes and similar opinions. As stated earlier, an opinion is just that - your subjective preference nothing more, nothing less.

Happy New Year!!!

 

[bonzo75]

Meaning you have like tastes and similar opinions. As stated earlier, an opinion is just that - your subjective preference nothing more, nothing less.

Happy New Year!!!

Actually, we don't. His preference and mine can, and is sometimes different. His audition style is also very different. But because we have similar experiences, we can understand what the other is saying when he says you have heard XY or Z.


You will be surprised, when you have a similar experience, you might actually be more in agreement than not. Before establishing one has different tastes, one first needs to confirm if they have had similar experiences.

When DDk and I compared his TTs and carts, we were in agreement with what he heard. After that, he might prefer the AS and I might prefer the Thorens reference, but we were in agreement what they do and don't do.

I was in agreement when I compared Mike's carts on the different LPs. Or with the many sessions I have had with audiophile Bill.

And, as stated earlier, the way opinions are formed, is what matters. After comparing the Lampi with esoteric K01 in the systems and completely seeing the flaws in the latter, is different from hearing some tubed dacs and deciding Lampi is probably the same in terms of being colored and sweet sounding.

 

[marslo]

Happy New Year 2017 !

I follow this thread with a great interest and respect Bonzo' s way to compare and consider all best horns constructions in real life.
Whilst I do not have so large experience with different setups I have probably the same sensivity and reception of the sound ,I also like AG and Lampi sound, have a decent TT with one of the top carts( Shelter Harmony).

My approach is to get one of good horn constructions with a big potential and spend time and mony in fine tuning , starting from the right amplification going through cables and ending with tweaks like vibration isolation , cleaning machine for vinyls or demagnetizers. IMO horns strengths in a acousticaly difficult room are more important than their flaws and I really enjoy very much music at home, living in the countryside.

This approach reduces audiophilia nervosa and leave more time for music and pleasure IMHO.
I have not ambition to get THE VERY BEST, I am fine with good enough.
I am also less reluctant for different tastes and opinions because I dont consider my setup to be the best one for everyone, it is best for me

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Best horn under 250K, I think it is playing the tuba!

I used to play the tuba back in primary school as part of the jazz miniband, best horn system I've ever had and managed to play!

Ok, getting back to the main question, I reckon Avant Garde, there horn systems are quite extra ordinary, although they're still experimenting with bass driver and horn driver integration, they're getting better at it, although not quite seamless as ML hybrids for that matter.

Cheers to horns! RJ

 

[sbo6]

And, as stated earlier, the way opinions are formed, is what matters. After comparing the Lampi with esoteric K01 in the systems and completely seeing the flaws in the latter, is different from hearing some tubed dacs and deciding Lampi is probably the same in terms of being colored and sweet sounding.

You must be on the take for Lampi since you never waste an opportunity to wax poetically about how great they are. For all the free adverts you post, you should be. Good for you.

At the end of the day and irrespective of what process and/or level of corroboration with fellow audiophiles you engage in, it's ultimately YOUR opinion - one man's taste and assessment.

 

[bonzo75]

You must be on the take for Lampi since you never waste an opportunity to wax poetically about how great they are. For all the free adverts you post, you should be. Good for you.

At the end of the day and irrespective of what process and/or level of corroboration with fellow audiophiles you engage in, it's ultimately YOUR opinion - one man's taste and assessment.

Yes, one man's opinion, but thankfully backed by actual experience. I think you are missing the connect between how opinions are formed and the experience behind them, which again is different from taste or preference.

Lampi doesn't need me to be on the take, product sells itself

 

[sbo6]

Yes, one man's opinion, but thankfully backed by actual experience. I think you are missing the connect between how opinions are formed and the experience behind them, which again is different from taste or preference.

Lampi doesn't need me to be on the take, product sells itself

Another free plug for Lampi, clever ;-)

And I missed nothing, it changes nothing WRT one person's opinion irrespective of previous experiences or the assumed lack thereof.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I auditioned the AG trios (with Gryphon pendragon bass towers , basshorns couldnt fit in) prior to buying my vivid Giyas
I had also auditioned the duos some time before..
didnt like the duos at all, probably bad setup

Here is my impression of the trios ...

blitzkrieg, shock and awe

Myself, Marcus and his lovely daughter took a trip to 13 Hof yesterday.. to listen to the AG trios
what an experience!!!
Using the pendragon bass towers.. the bass was stupendous and room shakingly deep , great articulation and no boom , Achim tuned the bass perfectly for the seated position .. a little to the north of neutral , but I like an uptilted bass if its tight and clean , and it was tight and clean.
The sheer dynamics of the speakers are amazing , some drum rimshots make you jump..i got shocked at least 3 times in tracks Achim played where an unexpected thump made you jump

Imaging was excellent if you sit in the sweet spot and so was the overall presentation of mids and treble .. and the dynamic range... unbelievable .. VERY detailed sound and no harshness
Achim put on a track and wound the speakers up to hyperwarp levels..105 db AVERAGE!!!! at listening position. It was like being attacked by a swarm of stukas and a battalion of Panzers also joining in
Even at those levels , there was no distortion ..
Amazing demo... and after 6 or 7 tracks we had coffee and said our goodbyes ..a wonderful 2 hours

Would I like a pair ...yeh for sure .. if I had the space and the money , an artistic statement as well as an amazing speaker
Would I like to live long term with the Trios..and here I have to say no .. I found them amazing but also relentless in their presentation .. not sure I would survive their "attack" for long without being emotionally drained...

 

[Rodney Gold]

The distributor of the Trios was upset with my evaluation.. the last paragraph...

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Spot on mate! That's one major reason why I dislike horns for "listening pleasure". As most of my listening sessions are either during nights or after midnight, horns are not relaxing for endless hours, allowing you to divulge into your favourite tracks into the wee hours of the morning. Also as the system continues to play, the system settles in so well that it reveals a very high level of musicality for me with tubes and stats, plus a TT- just pure music!

In terms of dynamics, sudden transients and that jump factor- horns are definitely it, and for that matter I respect Avant Garde and their designs. I really did like a pair of older Duo's but the distributor in Melbourne wanted nearly 16 grand for the pair, and they were from 2004 12 years old! A new pair of AG's in Australia are north of 40 grand, for that of spend, I sincerely believe stats offer greater value.

With a huge room and proper set up for AG Trio Omega's- sound is quite spectacular. However, I cannot see myself listening to this long term, rather a speaker to demonstrate what hifi can do, and offer in terms of a live band right in front of you, with nearly the same live effects. Perhaps a smaller AG combination such as the Duo with a smaller integrated amp with EL34's may be more musical, such as CJ or Manley would be nice for long term listening. I did try my MV60se on the Duo's that were being offered and experienced a better musicality factor. Perhaps an even lower powered SET 300B would have been what I was after.

Cheers again to AG for their wonderful designs in speakers as well as amplifiers, their SS amps, although very expensive, do sound wonderful. I wouldn't mind trying one of those on my Martin Logan's.
RJ

 

[Blue58]

I have heard quite a few Avantgarde systems, but my impressions were formed when I very nearly bought a pair. ......... Despite their supposed high efficiency, they actually do like a bit of power. I have seen some people make the mistake of trying to pair an Avantgarde with flea powered amps. This may be why they don't sound very good.

I respect your opinion Keith but this is another myth along with discontinuous bass that haunts Avantgardes.
Yes, they are sensitive to setup but once adjusted, placed and a powered by high quality amplification they are wonderful communicative speakers.
Best wishes
Blue58