Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?

[Amir]

David Karmeli @ddk should be here to upgrade our knowledge about Belt Drive vs Direct Drive vs ...

David is finishing the project of new AS turntable.
This AS turntable is totally more than 750kg ...

 

[PeterA]

sorry at no point I said 124 or Garrard is better than the MS 8000. I said they have very good value. I just don’t think MS 8000 does. If it was 5k or even 10k sure.

Compare an SX8000 II to any other table that costs $40-50k today and I suspect you will hear and see the value and how little improvement if any there has been. The Garrards are also good value, but they cost less and it is reflected in the sound.

 

[morricab]

i haven’t heard one I liked, and the manufacturer himself says his top models are belt. To buy DD, I would buy from a manufacturer specialising in DD.

I think Mr. Brinkmann is equally adept at both types of drive.

 

[bonzo75]

Compare an SX8000 II to any other table that costs $40-50k today and I suspect you will hear and see the value and how little improvement if any there has been. The Garrards are also good value, but they cost less and it is reflected in the sound.

I don't think 8000 II has any worth at that price, sonically or otherwise. Again, I know that Garrard's cost less, and they are not the best sounding, but they sound better than what they cost, there are many reliable restored samples to buy from.

Your statement that there has not been much improvement itself shows that the MS is overpriced - you can get that quality for much less. I am not recommending very high priced tables from today, and MS might have been a bargain at lower price, but now the rarity collector's premium makes it pointless.

Imo in vintage there has been no improvement in speakers/speaker drivers, but for TT, cartridge, phono, electronics, I would buy modern. Both for sonics and service. Exceptions being Garrard, TD 124, and SPU and Shure, FR 64s/3012r, which have very high value for their price and are reliable.. Granted modern amps I like are often based on vintage designs and voiced with old valves.

 

[mtemur]

Imo in vintage there has been no improvement in speakers/speaker drivers, but for TT, cartridge, phono, electronics, I would buy modern. Both for sonics and service. Exceptions being Garrard, TD 124, and SPU and Shure, FR 64s/3012r, which have very high value for their price and are reliable.. Granted modern amps I like are often based on vintage designs and voiced with old valves.

I completely agree with you.

Although I believe SX 8000 still sounds amazing regarding it’s age and complex mechanism it can give you hard time when things go wrong but new TechDas parts are compatible AFAIK.

 

[nmartynk]

I think Mr. Brinkmann is equally adept at both types of drive.

True, check out the white paper on the Oasis page (Development of a DD). He is explaining that in theory a DD has less disadvantages than a belt drive, e.g. Belt drive needs higher platter mass compared to DD which results in more bearing stress..

Current line up are three DDs and two belt drives.

 

[PeterA]

True, check out the white paper on the Oasis page (Development of a DD). He is explaining that in theory a DD has less disadvantages than a belt drive, e.g. Belt drive needs higher platter mass compared to DD which results in more bearing stress..

Current line up are three DDs and two belt drives.

I think that depends on the type of bearing. My 150 lbs platter for instance is supported on a cushion of air for almost frictionless rotation. I inspected a similar system from 1970 and it looked brand new. Non-stretch thread drive with incredibly consistent speed.

I am not saying it is easy and that a typical belt drive turntable does not have challenges, but non-typical superior solutions are possible.

I think it depends on the specific design solution and quality of the execution. Generalizations are fine for the sake of discussion, but they don’t tell the whole story.

 

[morricab]

True, check out the white paper on the Oasis page (Development of a DD). He is explaining that in theory a DD has less disadvantages than a belt drive, e.g. Belt drive needs higher platter mass compared to DD which results in more bearing stress..

Current line up are three DDs and two belt drives.

All three use the same motor and platter, can use the same PSU upgrades and arms.

 

[skinnyfla]

... well, I found this little review by Michael Fremer (whom I usually trust quite a bit with his reviews). Seems like he thought it was pretty good in 2012 and the Balance has had a few uogrades in bearing and motor and is supposedly somewhat improved. Looks like it might be worth looking into, considering it`s only half the price of some others mentioned.

Suppose it can`t be that bad:

Fremer
"The $23,800 combo of Brinkmann Balance turntable, 10.5 tonearm, modified low-output Brinkmann-EMT moving-coil cartridge, tubed power supply, and HRS M3 stand is—with the exception of the Rockport System III Sirius—the best turntable system I've ever heard."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/brinkmann-balance-turntable2

 

[bonzo75]

... well, I found this little review by Michael Fremer (whom I usually trust quite a bit with his reviews). Seems like he thought it was pretty good in 2012 and the Balance has had a few uogrades in bearing and motor and is supposedly somewhat improved. Looks like it might be worth looking into, considering it`s only half the price of some others mentioned.

Suppose it can`t be that bad:

Fremer
"The $23,800 combo of Brinkmann Balance turntable, 10.5 tonearm, modified low-output Brinkmann-EMT moving-coil cartridge, tubed power supply, and HRS M3 stand is—with the exception of the Rockport System III Sirius—the best turntable system I've ever heard."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/brinkmann-balance-turntable2

he was also going to buy it for his reference till he got a good deal on the continuum. He is still positive about it after all these years. The SAT designer also recommends it to many over many higher priced tables. And for that price and service, youyou can’t go wrong. You might as well spend time matching the right arm and cart to it, which with good records will change sound more than other costlier tables

 

[bonzo75]

If you meet Schick and Schroeder they will walk you away from belts to idlers though

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

... well, I found this little review by Michael Fremer (whom I usually trust quite a bit with his reviews). Seems like he thought it was pretty good in 2012 and the Balance has had a few uogrades in bearing and motor and is supposedly somewhat improved. Looks like it might be worth looking into, considering it`s only half the price of some others mentioned.

Suppose it can`t be that bad:

Fremer
"The $23,800 combo of Brinkmann Balance turntable, 10.5 tonearm, modified low-output Brinkmann-EMT moving-coil cartridge, tubed power supply, and HRS M3 stand is—with the exception of the Rockport System III Sirius—the best turntable system I've ever heard."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/brinkmann-balance-turntable2

If your thinking of upgrading to the Brinkmann Balance, I would also consider a Kuzma XL DC with 4Point 11" or 14" arm. Love mine so I am biased towards the XL DC !
Or if the XL DC is too expensive then a Kuzma Stabi M ?

 

[skinnyfla]

… i sometimes honestly think that off center pressings or warped vinyl are the bigger problem these days… but that’s another topic…

 

[Solypsa]

As Ked writes often, after a certain point in gear quality, the quality of the pressing played ( performance, recording, mastering, production, etc ) is a larger variable than the gear.

On that note, and in view of your stated music preference ( iirc includes lots of subculture rock, maybe not always the highest recording quality ) then having two arms one with your choice of high end mc and another with a good and pleasant sounding mm could be nice...

 

[Tangram]

... well, I found this little review by Michael Fremer (whom I usually trust quite a bit with his reviews). Seems like he thought it was pretty good in 2012 and the Balance has had a few uogrades in bearing and motor and is supposedly somewhat improved. Looks like it might be worth looking into, considering it`s only half the price of some others mentioned.

Suppose it can`t be that bad:

Fremer
"The $23,800 combo of Brinkmann Balance turntable, 10.5 tonearm, modified low-output Brinkmann-EMT moving-coil cartridge, tubed power supply, and HRS M3 stand is—with the exception of the Rockport System III Sirius—the best turntable system I've ever heard."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/brinkmann-balance-turntable2

It *almost* feels like you’ve come full circle, given you already own a really nice Brinkmann table, including the Ront power supply. Maybe think about keeping the table but changing the arm (and maybe cartridge) as an intermediate step.

 

[skinnyfla]

It *almost* feels like you’ve come full circle, given you already own a really nice Brinkmann table, including the Ront power supply. Maybe think about keeping the table but changing the arm (and maybe cartridge) as an intermediate step.

Can’t argue against… many options to choose from - isn’t that great

 

[skinnyfla]

As Ked writes often, after a certain point in gear quality, the quality of the pressing played ( performance, recording, mastering, production, etc ) is a larger variable than the gear.

On that note, and in view of your stated music preference ( iirc includes lots of subculture rock, maybe not always the highest recording quality ) then having two arms one with your choice of high end mc and another with a good and pleasant sounding mm could be nice...

… yepp - though I am often surprised by the quality some of these recordings have… I mean, also originally @ home in the subculture were Stray Cats and some of that later Brian Setzer stuff fir example is really well produced… or some old Trojan Ska like the Skatalites - almost touches Jazz…

 

[Another Johnson]

For those that missed it, Nagra’s 70th Anniversary turntable/tonearm was belt drive. This no holds barred Swiss made precision machine represents their best effort to distill their 70 years of exceptionalism to its essence. I think they succeeded.

Nagra Debuts its New Reference Anniversary Turntable/Tonearm Record Playback System

Romanel, Switzerland – Wednesday 24th November 2021—Nagra celebrates 70 years with a limited edition Reference Anniversary Turntable. According to the press release, the new turntable is the result of four year’s worth of R&D by a team of designers and engineers in the fields of applied physics...

www.analogplanet.com

 

[Lee]

@Dohmann has some thoughts on belt drive vs. direct drive. He favors belts.

 

[Another Johnson]

I seem to recall that up until Harry Pearson proclaimed that his friend Harry Weisfeld’s first direct drive TT was like a gold standard and better than best, everyone preferred belts.

People used to mock the Technics and Denon high end direct drives. People complained about cogging. Personally, I did not have a problem with direct drive, but I did prefer my belt drives. I’m not sure the complaints were justified. A well executed design of either type can sound good if it’s been properly set up.

I remember for their belt drive HW19 VPI introduced the PLC. It must have been a synchrous motor because the PLC controlled speed by reforming the wave to conform to the chosen frequency. Unfortunately, the reconstructed wave had sharp corners (square instead of sine). The speed adjustment was a nice feature, (although frequency could drift), but I could hear other noise that I found annoying.

A good direct drive trumps a bad belt drive, and vise versa, no doubt.