Bare Wire, Banana or Spade connections. Can you hear a difference?

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm posting this here as it's not a cable issue, although obviously it is cables that are the vehicle for these connections.

I have used all three types within the same system and have never been able to tell a difference in sound . Some people claim there is a difference. What is your opinion?

 

[Bruce B]

I can't tell a difference if all materials are clean and snug.
I heard someone could hear differences in how tight their spades were. I call BS on that one!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I can't tell a difference if all materials are clean and snug.
I heard someone could hear differences in how tight their spades were. I call BS on that one!

I agree.

The only thing that makes sense to me is if the connector (banana/spade) isn't properly installed/terminated to the cable.

 

[DonH50]

I can tell a difference when the ^@$^$# banana plug comes loose and falls out. The noise floor becomes dead black but dynamics are severely constricted.

 

[Orb]

I assume composition/structure/etc would be involved but would one expect greater oxidation (oxides)-connection influence with bare wire?

Cleaning contacts/removing-reinserting plugs (depends how long left connected)/etc is one area audible difference can be picked up.

Cheers
Orb

 

[DonH50]

Usually you create a hermetic seal when you tighten down on bare wire or spades. Bananas, at least the generic kind, depend upon spring-loading (tension) and wiping action when you insert them. Both can be fine but bananas tend to be less positive and more subject to oxidation.

 

[Orb]

Usually you create a hermetic seal when you tighten down on bare wire or spades. Bananas, at least the generic kind, depend upon spring-loading (tension) and wiping action when you insert them. Both can be fine but bananas tend to be less positive and more subject to oxidation.

Yeah agreed about the contact pressure helping against oxides, was more thinking part of the bare wire that is before the point of being tightened down.
And yeah good point about spring-loading tension, which is why it makes sense to reset bananas.

Cheers
Orb

 

[esldude]

I will also say no difference. Don't care for bananas either. When I had Quad ESL63s with them I eventually replaced them with some Edison Price Music posts.

 

[audioarcher]

Bare copper wire will oxidize over time. If you clean them from time to time it's not a problem. If you use bananas I would recommend the locking type. They have a much tighter connection.

I have heard differences in sound between different materials in speaker connectors. Not necessarily better or worse, but brighter and darker depending on the connector.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

I hear greater image density with spade connectors (have not tried bare wire). Also, the binding posts really matter. I just compared WBTs to Furutechs and found the WBT to be brighter in the upper mids. The Furutechs are also fuller in the mid bass.

 

[audioarcher]

I hear greater image density with spade connectors (have not tried bare wire). Also, the binding posts really matter. I just compared WBTs to Furutechs and found the WBT to be brighter in the upper mids. The Furutechs are also fuller in the mid bass.

Which model connectors or posts were they? My WBT Nexgen spades are brighter in the upper mids as you say than the brass based ones I was using before.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Which model connectors or posts were they? My WBT Nexgen spades are brighter in the upper mids as you say than the brass based ones I was using before.

Sean, I'm not sure but will find out After I posted the above I searched the Furutech site and saw many choices, so I must quantify my statement with model numbers, my bad.

 

[Atmasphere]

We hear differences between spades and banana plugs easily. If the banana is the type that employs a mechanism to tighten it snug in the hole then no worries, as long as it is not part of a spade connection to begin with. If you have EdisonPrice posts then the passive banana plugs work fine- that is what the EP posts were designed for. We use Cardas posts, so don't get that advantage.

We can hear differences in how tight the spades are as well (its not BS)- especially if the speaker is lower impedance, not so much when the speaker is higher impedance like 16 ohms. This is because as amps go, our amps have a somewhat higher output impedance and things like that suddenly matter. When working with solid state many of these differences seem to vanish.

The Cardas posts are usually raw copper. Its not a problem so long as the connection is in fact tight- it will stay oxygen free. If its loose, corrosion will slowly degrade the connection.

 

[DonH50]

We hear differences between spades and banana plugs easily.

I think I have only heard differences when a connection was very poor. The output impedance of the amp and speaker's impedance usually swamps the wire, let alone the connector. In practice I am not sure the difference between a few milliohms and a few tens of milliohms is audible, at least to me (ears of clay). Unless you are driving some very low-Z speakers (Apogee, some ESLs and conventional designs) it's hard to imagine it making a difference?

We can hear differences in how tight the spades are as well (its not BS)- especially if the speaker is lower impedance, not so much when the speaker is higher impedance like 16 ohms. This is because as amps go, our amps have a somewhat higher output impedance and things like that suddenly matter. When working with solid state many of these differences seem to vanish.

That seems counter intuitive. If you have a higher output impedance to begin with, then it seems like you would have more wiggle room on wire and connector impedance without changing the sound (smaller impact of net Zout, or damping factor if you prefer). With a big SS amp the difference would be much larger in terms of change in impedance seen by the speaker. A damping factor of 100 (SS) implies 80 milliohms driving impedance; DF = 10 (tube) means 0.8 ohms. If you add 10 or 20 milliohms the impact should be less with the tube amp? This does not take into account dynamic impedance and the frequency dependence of the output impedance, natch.

I know some amp designs used to run a feedback wire from the speaker terminal to compensate line loss and keep the impedance low at the speaker.

The Cardas posts are usually raw copper. Its not a problem so long as the connection is in fact tight- it will stay oxygen free. If its loose, corrosion will slowly degrade the connection.

I had pure copper connectors on my old Counterpoint. I used heat shrink (no real help, couldn't get a tight seal), epoxy (now good luck getting them off), caulk (still not a great seal), and finally just a clear lacquer coating to seal them. I would not willing go back, too much work to keep them from oxidizing, though a good tight connection should be hermetic. I found Cu soft enough to work loose over a fairly short time (months) and had to keep tightening them down.

I always appreciate your posts Atmasphere, please accept my comments as questioning and not challenging. I am curious about the output impedance, must be overlooking something (what I get for fly-by posting on lunch break!) - Don

 

[Atmasphere]

No worries!

With regards to output impedance, I think you are looking at the connection thing backwards and so it seems counterintuitive. If you look at it from the speaker point of view, anything prior to the speaker is the output impedance of the amp (for solid state people, read: damping factor) and you would be surprised how quickly things like that can add up. Again, its far more audible when the amp is driving a low impedance speaker than when its driving a higher impedance. Low impedance speakers are problematic that way (and by no means is that the only way). Our big amps are particularly good at driving Sound Labs, and curiously that speaker is particularly revealing of loose speaker connections at either end of the speaker cable. I think they might be the most dramatic example of that I can think of.

Sounds like you might live near the coast?? If the environment is troublesome, the Cardas posts are available in plated versions.

 

[esldude]

No worries!


Sounds like you might live near the coast?? If the environment is troublesome, the Cardas posts are available in plated versions.

Yeah, if you live near the coast, then the rhodium plated Cardas spades might be just the ticket.

 

[Bruce B]

We hear differences between spades and banana plugs easily. If the banana is the type that employs a mechanism to tighten it snug in the hole then no worries, as longhorn as it is not part of a spade connection to begin with. If you have EdisonPrice posts then the passive banana plugs work fine- that is what the EP posts were designed for. We use Cardas posts, so don't get that advantage.

We can hear differences in how tight the spades are as well (its not BS)- especially if the speaker is lower impedance, .

Ralph, I highly respect your opinions and what you say on this forum, but I call BS on this. Unless you can give me a verifiable scientific reason on why this might be happening, then you're blowing smoke. I tried this years ago with a calibrated torque wrench and even took measurements and proved it false.

 

[Andre Marc]

Ralph, I highly respect your opinions and what you say on this forum, but I call BS on this. Unless you can give me a verifiable scientific reason on why this might be happening, then you're blowing smoke. I tried this years ago with a calibrated torque wrench and even took measurements and proved it false.

Total and utter BS is right Audiophile dogma, the kind that scares folks away.

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph, I highly respect your opinions and what you say on this forum, but I call BS on this. Unless you can give me a verifiable scientific reason on why this might be happening, then you're blowing smoke. I tried this years ago with a calibrated torque wrench and even took measurements and proved it false.

I explained why that is earlier on this thread.

What sort of amp did you use? That seems to make a difference- if that amp has a higher output impedance like ours, this sort of stuff becomes audible (and measurable- just place a mic in the room). I can't claim to have heard this on every amp; but I have heard it on ours many times, which is why I used the word 'we' as in 'us' at Atma-Sphere. If customers mention they are using banana plugs, I encourage them to try just using the spade lugs instead. In the last 20 years since I realized this could be a problem I have yet to have someone tell me it didn't make a difference.

Many years ago RCA published a nomograph showing the relationship between speakers, amplifiers and speaker cables. It showed that relatively small resistances in the speaker cable can have a fair amount of effect at the speaker itself.

One caution: years ago when we came out with our S-30 amplifier, we found it would just not play bass like the other amps, even though on the bench it made full power right down to 2Hz just as our other amps did. So one could have made the argument that we were imagining things, since on the bench the measurements were the same. But the loss of bass was profound, and in discovering why (poorly bypassed circuit in the driver) it was possible to fix the problem. Its a similar issue in sorting out why a power cord can affect the sound of an amp. Getting a handle on how to do the measurement is the key. I think you did good work doing what you did, but I think you missed something. It might simply be the amp, it might be the speaker; I am dead certain that not all products behave the same way or else this forum would be really really quiet.

 

[rockitman]

I never used banana's and always felt (intuitively) that spades make better a connection with more surface area. Could be wrong. Whether I could hear the difference ? who knows. I'm not about to buy a pair of banana terminated speaker cables to try it.