Are the $19,500 Berkeley and $35,000 dCS DACs really worth big bucks?

[Al M.]

I'm finding them both amusing and frustrating and while I usually avoid them, today I found myself reading and no I'm trying to resist starting my own, e.g.

"Why do Lampizators sound so soft and colored?"

"Why do horn speakers sound so harsh and not anything like live music?"

Flamethrower

"Why would anyone who likes the sound of live music like solid state amps?"

"Why would anyone who likes the sound of live music like tube amps?"

Hehe, good one!

Do you guys expect to successfully prove your point (e.g. win someone over) when there is no right or wrong and it all boils down to personal taste, or do you simply enjoy the debate? Just curious...

I don't try to win anyone over when it comes to personal taste. However:
1. I do enjoy the debate
2. It is nice to clarify things, including for yourself as it often happens when you write a post
3. It is obviously fun to point out when someone makes assertions that do not hold up to scrutiny, like here (where I discuss also some items that do not boil down to personal taste, such as in the middle section of the post)

In any case, I haven't even bothered to engage with the opening headline of this thread.

 

[Al M.]

Do you guys expect to successfully prove your point (e.g. win someone over) when there is no right or wrong and it all boils down to personal taste, or do you simply enjoy the debate? Just curious...

I should add: while I don't expect to convince for example morricab or caesar *), I am not willing to let negative claims about high end gear unanswered when they go completely counter to my own positive experiences with that gear. Otherwise readers of these threads who haven't heard any of this gear might start to form a negative opinion about the gear anyway based on their assertions, when these are left standing alone. Which would be a shame.

Also, I feel a need to expose flawed methodology when forming opinions, e.g., extrapolating from the sound of old dCS gear to new-generation dCS gear without having heard the latter, or comparing the sound of different DACs heard in different systems, rather than forming an opinion from head-to-head comparisons within the same system.

__________________
*) impossible, unless perhaps I could put them in the same circumstances under which I heard the gear, and even then I am not sure if they would change their opinion

 

[PeterA]

Do you guys expect to successfully prove your point (e.g. win someone over) when there is no right or wrong and it all boils down to personal taste, or do you simply enjoy the debate? Just curious...

Ian, I sometimes enjoy these debates. It's an interesting OP question and one that I have thought about while wondering whether or not to get into digital. I have learned a lot by listening to your various DACs and to Al's DAC. And then I had that seminal experience with AL comparing the Rossini, Berkeley Ref DAC and one from Spectral. The Rossini was so much better that I learned something about the sound of new digital. This was later confirmed when I heard your Vivaldi.

This particular thread has wandered a bit which can also be interesting. I don't think I will convince anyone of my views, especially since I don't own any digital gear. That's fine and not my intent. Whether there is a right and wrong to this is open to discussion, IMO, and not all of this is personal taste. There is some technology involved which seems to make a difference. But I agree with you that much of it is subject and little more than a reflection of one's taste.

 

[morricab]

I should add: while I don't expect to convince for example morricab or caesar *), I am not willing to let negative claims about high end gear unanswered when they go completely counter to my own positive experiences with that gear. Otherwise readers of these threads who haven't heard any of this gear might start to form a negative opinion about the gear anyway based on their assertions, when these are left standing alone. Which would be a shame.

Also, I feel a need to expose flawed methodology when forming opinions, e.g., extrapolating from the sound of old dCS gear to new-generation dCS gear without having heard the latter, or comparing the sound of different DACs heard in different systems, rather than forming an opinion from head-to-head comparisons within the same system.

__________________
*) impossible, unless perhaps I could put them in the same circumstances under which I heard the gear, and even then I am not sure if they would change their opinion

I never extrapolated and in fact I myself made the disclaimer that I haven't heard it...why do you keep trying to fan this flame? I have heard later gear than the old Elgar and Delius and they sounded (such as Scarlatti) quite similar (maybe even a bit worse) to the older stuff. I would never turn down an opportunity to hear a Vivaldi or Rossini in their best light and give them a chance. I am about collecting data overall else.

Heck, I hate Class D sound but I have actually owned a couple of the amps for a while to see if I would "get" the sound. I didn't and they moved on (actually I still have a small pair of monos that I use as sub amps in some system configurations). I have tried Devialet at home in my system (will do so again soon...not too hopeful for it on horns though) but not yet ncore (although all demos heard with ncore to date are yawn inducing...same for Devialet), directly compared it to the Einstein "The Absolute Tune" integrated. I wasn't as good and I didn't particularly like the Einstein even...I sold it soon after. So, I keep trying to see what the "next great advance" will bring. I get the same feeling with digital. "Old" tech still sounds the best to me, whether discrete or chip R2R.


When you have heard a particular signature of a given piece of equipment in several different systems the chances are quite high that this signature is from the piece that is being moved around from system to system. Most comparison I do is head to head but hearing the same piece of gear in several systems is just as informative...especially if a signature appears. So, no flawed methodology here, mate. Do you level match when you do your comparisons?? I do down to 0.5db. Look at my one real speaker review...(Piega C2 ltd. + sub) you will see measurements that I made at close distance and in-room. Outside of Stereophile and a few other big mags...who else can or does that?

You see I have a problem with proclamations about DACs like Vivaldi where the predecessors were praised to the high heavens (if this was the late 90s then WBF would be all about the Elgar) but you listen to them...and they really don't live up to the hype. Then people say, "oh the new one is SO much better than the old one", implying that the old one from that company was flawed and bad sounding but NOW they got it right...and again...and again...

Some people say that after RoSH rules kicked in that DCS gear actually got worse sounding after the Elgar and is only now returning to the level they had before...and I didn't think much of that level...but I would love to try out a Vivaldi to see...

Reviewers then drool on it that it blows away the previous version ad nauseum. Most of the time those reviewers are doing just what you dislike...comparing with their memory in an entirely different system but that seems to be accepted just fine when the outcome is positive for the new thing.

 

[microstrip]

I never extrapolated and in fact I myself made the disclaimer that I haven't heard it...why do you keep trying to fan this flame? I have heard later gear than the old Elgar and Delius and they sounded (such as Scarlatti) quite similar (maybe even a bit worse) to the older stuff. I would never turn down an opportunity to hear a Vivaldi or Rossini in their best light and give them a chance. I am about collecting data overall else.

Yes, but IMHO we should restrain about making comments on how we expect it to sound until you have such opportunity ...
BTW, top sounding equipment does not need that we give it a chance - again IMHO we have the chance to listen to it. Whether we manage to make it sound good or not, or simply, like it or not is the interesting question...

Heck, I hate Class D sound but I have actually owned a couple of the amps for a while to see if I would "get" the sound. I didn't and they moved on (actually I still have a small pair of monos that I use as sub amps in some system configurations). I have tried Devialet at home in my system (will do so again soon...not too hopeful for it on horns though) but not yet ncore (although all demos heard with ncore to date are yawn inducing...same for Devialet), directly compared it to the Einstein "The Absolute Tune" integrated. I wasn't as good and I didn't particularly like the Einstein even...I sold it soon after. So, I keep trying to see what the "next great advance" will bring. I get the same feeling with digital. "Old" tech still sounds the best to me, whether discrete or chip R2R.

The latest Devialet's are really good sounding. But you must assemble a system around them , not just dropping them in your current system and expect miracles. And surely, do not expect them to sound like your preferences. It is a different way of listening to a recording.

When you have heard a particular signature of a given piece of equipment in several different systems the chances are quite high that this signature is from the piece that is being moved around from system to system. Most comparison I do is head to head but hearing the same piece of gear in several systems is just as informative...especially if a signature appears. So, no flawed methodology here, mate. Do you level match when you do your comparisons?? I do down to 0.5db. Look at my one real speaker review...(Piega C2 ltd. + sub) you will see measurements that I made at close distance and in-room. Outside of Stereophile and a few other big mags...who else can or does that?

You see I have a problem with proclamations about DACs like Vivaldi where the predecessors were praised to the high heavens (if this was the late 90s then WBF would be all about the Elgar) but you listen to them...and they really don't live up to the hype. Then people say, "oh the new one is SO much better than the old one", implying that the old one from that company was flawed and bad sounding but NOW they got it right...and again...and again...

Some people say that after RoSH rules kicked in that DCS gear actually got worse sounding after the Elgar and is only now returning to the level they had before...and I didn't think much of that level...but I would love to try out a Vivaldi to see...

Again IMHO head-to-head comparisons of DACs within the same system are mostly useless and sometimes misleading - you are mainly comparing compatibility of the DACs with a particular system that will never be assembled elsewhere.

The Metronome Calypso - C2A DAC is excellently sounding and much easier to integrate in a system than the Vivaldi's. But once you successfully optimize around the Vivaldi it shows you that the DCS Vivaldi stack is a few points above the Metronome's.

IMHO the common element when comparing is using the same recording and referring as much of the positive aspects as possible. Time and patience are needed ...

Reviewers then drool on it that it blows away the previous version ad nauseum. Most of the time those reviewers are doing just what you dislike...comparing with their memory in an entirely different system but that seems to be accepted just fine when the outcome is positive for the new thing.

Fortunately most of the time the new versions are better sounding than old ones, but surely there are exceptions. Reviewers are hyperbolic, it is part of the game.

BTW, I can not understand why you are so obsessed with DCS success. And yes, I also have an Elgar on my system now. The Vivaldi is significantly better, no doubt.

 

[Al M.]

I never extrapolated and in fact I myself made the disclaimer that I haven't heard it...why do you keep trying to fan this flame? I have heard later gear than the old Elgar and Delius and they sounded (such as Scarlatti) quite similar (maybe even a bit worse) to the older stuff. I would never turn down an opportunity to hear a Vivaldi or Rossini in their best light and give them a chance. I am about collecting data overall else.

Yes, Brad, you did initially make a disclaimer about the Vivaldi, that is true.

However, here is our later exchange where you were much less careful:

None of those problems intrinsically exist in dCS gear. If you read the assessment of Peter A. about the dCS Rossini,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...win-s-High-End&p=379841&viewfull=1#post379841

he specifically points out the naturalness of ssound with proper harmonic integrity (and he exclusively listens to vinyl at home). And BTW, the most realistic, and thus harmonically integrated, presentation of a triangle, including perfect decay, that I have heard was not from top analog, but from a dCS Vivaldi stack playing a 44.1 kHz Reference Recordings CD.

I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that. As I said, maybe the Vivaldi is a whole new ball of wax...or maybe it is the same basic sound wrapped in a pretty wrapper.

So you did extrapolate -- "I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that." And you still wonder why I keep fanning this flame?

***

As for your other points, I may get back to them later in the day.

 

[morricab]

Yes, Brad, you did initially make a disclaimer about the Vivaldi, that is true.

However, here is our later exchange where you were much less careful:





So you did extrapolate -- "I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that." And you still wonder why I keep fanning this flame?

***

As for your other points, I may get back to them later in the day.

Actually I put a disclaimer in the second one as well...you should be more careful how you are filtering in your head what I am writing.

 

[morricab]

Yes, but IMHO we should restrain about making comments on how we expect it to sound until you have such opportunity ...
BTW, top sounding equipment does not need that we give it a chance - again IMHO we have the chance to listen to it. Whether we manage to make it sound good or not, or simply, like it or not is the interesting question...



The latest Devialet's are really good sounding. But you must assemble a system around them , not just dropping them in your current system and expect miracles. And surely, do not expect them to sound like your preferences. It is a different way of listening to a recording.



Again IMHO head-to-head comparisons of DACs within the same system are mostly useless and sometimes misleading - you are mainly comparing compatibility of the DACs with a particular system that will never be assembled elsewhere.

The Metronome Calypso - C2A DAC is excellently sounding and much easier to integrate in a system than the Vivaldi's. But once you successfully optimize around the Vivaldi it shows you that the DCS Vivaldi stack is a few points above the Metronome's.

IMHO the common element when comparing is using the same recording and referring as much of the positive aspects as possible. Time and patience are needed ...



Fortunately most of the time the new versions are better sounding than old ones, but surely there are exceptions. Reviewers are hyperbolic, it is part of the game.

BTW, I can not understand why you are so obsessed with DCS success. And yes, I also have an Elgar on my system now. The Vivaldi is significantly better, no doubt.

It's funny, on one side we have Al M. and Bonzo saying that only direct, head to head comparisons are the way to get at which piece of gear sounds better and then we have you now saying that it is mostly useless and sometimes misleading. IMO, DACs are one of the most comparable pieces or gear in a system because there are usually minimal interface issues. Speakers and amps are much tougher to compare because of impedance and sensitivity matching issues. As long as a DAC is fed into a preamp then impedance is not an issue and the signal never transitions from electrical to mechanical or vice versa.

It is not practical or really necessary to build up an optimal system around all pieces of gear on test in order to determine the character of a piece of gear. They all have unique signatures. This can be modified or ameliorated by other components in a system but usually not eliminated.

Using high quality recordings that one knows well (even better if you made them yourself as I have done in a few cases) is always important but this can also lead you into a blind alley so I like to also mix in ones I know pretty well but that I don't use regularly for reviewing.

So, what you are telling me about Vivaldi, SOUNDS like it has issues that have to be counterbalanced or it doesn't reach such a high level of performance...if that is not what you are saying then what do you mean by optimization of a system around Vivaldi. It sounds to me like the Metronome is far better choice for most people who will generally drop the new piece into an existing system. Are you telling met that the Metronome has more coloration overall but is somehow "more sympathetic" in its colorations or are you saying the Vivaldi reveals all the weaknesses in ones system and requires a rethink? Or are you telling me both those things? Try to be less cryptic.

I am not obssessed with DCS per se. They were; however, one of the focus DACs of the OP, so...

 

[Al M.]

Actually I put a disclaimer in the second one as well...you should be more careful how you are filtering in your head what I am writing.

Yes, you put a disclaimer in the second one as well, but that was obviously not sufficient to negate what you said in the sentence prior to that: "I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that."

You thus clearly extrapolated from your previous experience with older dCS gear that what Peter and I said especially about the Rossini (which touched on naturalness and convincing body of sound) could not be true.

It cannot be read any other way, Brad. I don't think anyone other than you will disagree with me on this point.

 

[bonzo75]

It's funny, on one side we have Al M. and Bonzo saying that only direct, head to head comparisons are the way to get at which piece of gear sounds better and then we have you now saying that it is mostly useless and sometimes misleading. IMO, DACs are one of the most comparable pieces or gear in a system because there are usually minimal interface issues. Speakers and amps are much tougher to compare because of impedance and sensitivity matching issues. As long as a DAC is fed into a preamp then impedance is not an issue and the signal never transitions from electrical to mechanical or vice versa.

.

Completely agree about Dacs comparison. Tonearms and analog stuff is the toughest to compare, even the same user despite having it in his system will find it tough, best is to see if there are consistencies across systems. When you compare, you first get some attributes, and the more systems you compare them in, the more you realize which is a function of the component and which of the set up. With dacs the consistency is pretty high

 

[morricab]

Yes, you put a disclaimer in the second one as well, but that was obviously not sufficient to negate what you said in the sentence prior to that. You clearly extrapolated from your previous experience with older dCS gear that what Peter and I said especially about the Rossini (which touched on naturalness and convincing body of sound) could not be true: "I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that."

It cannot be read any other way, Brad. I don't think anyone other than you will disagree with me on this point.

Obvious to whom? I said don't agree as things stand now but with a disclaimer (twice) that I could be mistaken. That is a point of a disclaimer...you take a position but you leave open that your experience is incomplete and it implies you could change that position with sufficient evidence. So, it doesn't negate my stance but it does leave open my stance for revision. All judgements are provisional. I am agnostic but based on experience skeptical. You have chosen to take it personally that I am not in love with the DCS sound up to now and both you and Peter supposedly had an epiphany of sorts. Except that neither of you bought one...curious that.

 

[morricab]

Completely agree about Dacs comparison. Tonearms and analog stuff is the toughest to compare, even the same user despite having it in his system will find it tough, best is to see if there are consistencies across systems. When you compare, you first get some attributes, and the more systems you compare them in, the more you realize which is a function of the component and which of the set up. With dacs the consistency is pretty high

Yes, I also agree that comparing a piece of gear across systems can be quite useful...particularly for difficult to test items like cartridges. This is also because the setup of analog stuff is crucial to getting good sound and someone might have done a poor job, which is biasing the outcome. A DAC has none of these issues. So, if you cannot (as Micro suggests) do a head to head with a DAC in a given system then I would say that you can't compare anything this way because a DAC is probably the most consistent item in terms of matching. Then you can only compare to a true reference of sorts (like having a musician play in a room, record it and play it right back...something I have done Btw.) or across many systems.

 

[PeterA]

Obvious to whom? I said don't agree as things stand now but with a disclaimer (twice) that I could be mistaken. That is a point of a disclaimer...you take a position but you leave open that your experience is incomplete and it implies you could change that position with sufficient evidence. So, it doesn't negate my stance but it does leave open my stance for revision. All judgements are provisional. I am agnostic but based on experience skeptical. You have chosen to take it personally that I am not in love with the DCS sound up to now and both you and Peter supposedly had an epiphany of sorts. Except that neither of you bought one...curious that.

That seems an odd qualification and a pretty strange comment. If you have been reading my posts in this thread, it is pretty clear that I don't listen to digital in my system. I might also have an epiphany of sorts if I hear some super speaker or turntable (Magico M3, TechDAS AF1) but that does not mean I will buy it. It could simply mean that I can't afford it or that it is not appropriate for my room, or I don't like the looks of it. You should try to hear the Rossini or Vivaldi DAC in a familiar system. I was very surprised. You may be too.

 

[Al M.]

Obvious to whom? I said don't agree as things stand now but with a disclaimer (twice) that I could be mistaken. That is a point of a disclaimer...you take a position but you leave open that your experience is incomplete and it implies you could change that position with sufficient evidence. So, it doesn't negate my stance but it does leave open my stance for revision. All judgements are provisional. I am agnostic but based on experience skeptical. You have chosen to take it personally that I am not in love with the DCS sound up to now and both you and Peter supposedly had an epiphany of sorts.

No, I didn't take personally what you call our "epiphany" and that you don't share in it since you cannot do so. After all you haven't yet heard the Rossini yourself. I was just coldly analyzing what you actually said vs. what you claimed that you said.

Perhaps in the future you could be a bit more careful with your statements. It might save you some trouble.

Except that neither of you bought one...curious that.

As Peter said. Also, if you would have cared to read the thread further, I was really lusting after the dCS Rossini at the time. However, my perspective on the high end has changed in the meantime, and currently I am not willing to spend that much money on a digital component anymore. Over the last three years I have gone on the cheap and factory direct with several purchases now, and successfully so. I am also not particularly in love with the luxury aspects of the chassis of the Rossini and what that inevitably adds to the price, but this is a personal thing. It does look cool, and I can fully understand others' owner's pride.

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t think one needs to buy to prove he likes it – buying is a factor of budgetary considerations and other priorities in the system.

 

[caesar]

Thanks Amir. I'm suggesting that the talent is probably satisfied, but does not necessarily like, the product being released. There is a difference. I have read some reports that a few famous past musicians did not like what the studio did to their work. I am suggesting that they may be just satisfied because perhaps they were presented very few options. I can't imagine they all like their sound compressed as it often is, for instance. Doesn't some music sound better with greater dynamic range but instead, music was released compressed for storage reasons and for the loudness wars to get radio notice? We now read that different releases are mixed differently depending on how it is to be later heard.

Regardless, your arguments are not with me. I don't even own a DAC, let alone any tubes in my system, but I have heard and enjoyed the latest DACS from dCS, and to a lesser degree Berkeley, and I believe they are solid state designs. The dCS Vivaldi and Rossini are the least colored DACS that I have heard, that is that they exhibit none of the glare/distortion/artifacts that I have long associated with digital. Admittedly, my experience is very limited and I have heard very few DACs. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive.

Not if you listening to well done ripped vinyl from the originally released record

 

[caesar]

Does anyone ever learn anything from these types of threads? It seems like there have been so many threads like this one that use sensational headline-ish subject lines to draw the same members to them the way a moth goes to a flame, where the content seems to be combative with a lot of nitpicking of each others' posts.

I'm finding them both amusing and frustrating and while I usually avoid them, today I found myself reading and no I'm trying to resist starting my own, e.g.

"Why do Lampizators sound so soft and colored?"

"Why do horn speakers sound so harsh and not anything like live music?"

"Why would anyone who likes the sound of live music like solid state amps?"

"Why would anyone who likes the sound of live music like tube amps?"


(Ok, not all great examples, but you get the point).

Do you guys expect to successfully prove your point (e.g. win someone over) when there is no right or wrong and it all boils down to personal taste, or do you simply enjoy the debate? Just curious...

Well put, MadFloyd. Getting frustrated because others do not share your taste seems extremely foolish.

Brand associations matter also... why try a brand that gives you bad vibes? life is too short

 

[Al M.]

Well put, MadFloyd. Getting frustrated because others do not share your taste seems extremely foolish.

Says someone who likes to stir up the pot because he constantly feels a curious urge of sharing his negative feelings about certain brands. Quite ironic, I would say.

 

[caesar]

...

I do see lots of technological changes over a short amount of time, and I notice various people preferring one format/resolution over another and even computer files versus physical CDs. Digital, as a medium, seems far from settled. If I were to add a digital source to my system, I'd have little or no idea where to even begin, let alone how to determine value. Perhaps that is why I have not tried yet. I try to enjoy it in other people's systems and learn from them.

Resolution and the ability to sound natural are the two areas where I have had difficulty with digital. ...

Peter, those are ugly words toward guys who love digital! Your tone, your words, and your approach all suggest that digital is a bastard child compared to vinyl. I find it completely offensive and feel deeply hurt! NOT!

Look, everyone will always feel offended by someone's preferences or ideas. Furthermore, if guys like "Worthless to the audio fan" Robert Harley had done their due diligence and actually compared the Berkley DAC to others in its cohort, and not wasted people's time, he would have used language such as what Alpinist is using above...

 

[caesar]

Says someone who likes to stir up the pot because he constantly feels a curious urge of sharing his negative feelings about certain brands. Quite ironic, I would say.

Dude, I actually wasted my precious time that I could have spent with my kids or listened to music or done a million other things instead of auditioning the Berkeley!