Are High-End Cables a Scam?
- Thread starter Robert
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.. Not completely true IMO. IT is difficult to really know what those pros think of the cables they use..
Franz,
Do you know whom I am quoting?
"Speaking for myself, when I started my own business,XXX, I was finally able to have what I think is the ultimate new technology, a great acoustic, a listening room with what are, to me, the world’s best and most accurate speakers,YYY speakers (check their web site for information). I use ZZZ amplifiers capable of producing something like 3,000 watt peaks. I use the new utterly amazing WWW Speaker cables and even my patch cords are made using WWW cable. Listening in my room is a dream and it is often easy as pie to hear an older project and know what to correct immediately."
I should have put an emoticon , a smiley .... Nonetheless one must admot that several audiophiles cables, likely the vast majority, the more expensive, the thicker or wider they become .. a few pictures:
Yes MIT is not thick but make up for the lack of thickness with the "Articulator" bulk
And not to be outdone so goes Tranparent
I could post several more pictures ... Most Audio cables are "dressed to impress" a few aren't .. There will always be exceptions .. They are ..well.. the exceptions ...
Now let's get back to the subject at hand ..
If you just consider the only classical electrical parameter that affects significantly the frequency response ( resistance ) then 99% of the cables are dressed to impress. Anything over AWG14 (1.6mm diameter) per conductor is a waste of money in speaker cables.
But if you want to minimize capacitance and inductance, as capacitance decreases with spacing, you have to keep the conductors far from each other - it is why most of the cables must be thick. The picture you presented of Shunyata power cables interior just demonstrates why they must be thick - you must have a stable structure and, because of safety regulations, adequate insulation. Some manufacturers use thickness to damp microphony due to triboelectricity in the cables.
Happily the consumer brigade is not measuring the diameter of the electrolytic capacitors in power amplifiers - yet!
Ah-ha! I was right, they ARE a tweak!! See, there, helping to flush away the bad stuff in the sound ...
Frank
Early crystal radio sets utilized a "cat's whisker", which is the diode that Frank was referring to. To keep that potential low in audio cables, a quality connector with gold plating is highly desirable, but need not be extravagently priced.
I have substituted some cables, but I have to say that, aside from extreme dynamic range recordings where I can hear a reduction in hum and noise with the 'better' cable, I can't reliably hear any other differences. Every time I get out of my seat and sit down again, it sounds a little different--even if I made no changes. To illustrate this, play some white noise and move your head just a fraction of an inch. The sound changes.
As for speaker cables, I started out with 14AWG, but in my application, it was getting hot during high volume listening (30+ amperes flowing through the cables) so I upgraded to an 8AWG cable from RF Specialties. I did hear a difference, but it was not what I expected: some reduction in bass. What I think I "lost" was overhang, or that increase in peak amplitude due to the woofers overshooting the actual signal due to inadequate current carrying of the old cables (underdamping).
You might find a parrot in my photos, but not a cat. (Parrots are the real secret tweak (or tweet, perhaps?) to getting great audio.)
I have substituted some cables, but I have to say that, aside from extreme dynamic range recordings where I can hear a reduction in hum and noise with the 'better' cable, I can't reliably hear any other differences. Every time I get out of my seat and sit down again, it sounds a little different--even if I made no changes. To illustrate this, play some white noise and move your head just a fraction of an inch. The sound changes.
As for speaker cables, I started out with 14AWG, but in my application, it was getting hot during high volume listening (30+ amperes flowing through the cables) so I upgraded to an 8AWG cable from RF Specialties. I did hear a difference, but it was not what I expected: some reduction in bass. What I think I "lost" was overhang, or that increase in peak amplitude due to the woofers overshooting the actual signal due to inadequate current carrying of the old cables (underdamping).
You might find a parrot in my photos, but not a cat. (Parrots are the real secret tweak (or tweet, perhaps?) to getting great audio.)
Listen the problem is nobody can ever fold up the tent and go home. It was clear that zip cord and cheap rca connectors were inadequate. Once these problems were dealt with "nobody could declare "mission accomplished." The money is flowing and nobody wants to turn it off. Our customers have money to spend and they want more. The cable manufacturers are no more guilty than anyone else. What's the harm they say? There's plenty of sensible cable at reasonable prices.
I don't think a company that makes thin cable btw, wants to be accused of ripping off their customers. That's why they are spending so much money trying to develop ways to convince people the effects of thier product can be scientifically demonstrated.
I don't think a company that makes thin cable btw, wants to be accused of ripping off their customers. That's why they are spending so much money trying to develop ways to convince people the effects of thier product can be scientifically demonstrated.
The Art of Electronics, by Horowitz and Hill -- widely regarded as a "bible" in the electronics industry: "The so-called phono jack (RCA) used in audio equipment is a nice lesson in bad design, because the inner conductor mates before the shield when you plug it in; futhermore , the design of the connector is such that both shield and center conductor tend to make poor contact. You've undoubtedly heard the results!"
Frank
Frank
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If you just consider the only classical electrical parameter that affects significantly the frequency response ( resistance ) then 99% of the cables are dressed to impress. Anything over AWG14 (1.6mm diameter) per conductor is a waste of money in speaker cables.
But if you want to minimize capacitance and inductance, as capacitance decreases with spacing, you have to keep the conductors far from each other - it is why most of the cables must be thick. The picture you presented of Shunyata power cables interior just demonstrates why they must be thick - you must have a stable structure and, because of safety regulations, adequate insulation. Some manufacturers use thickness to damp microphony due to triboelectricity in the cables.
Happily the consumer brigade is not measuring the diameter of the electrolytic capacitors in power amplifiers - yet!
Microstrip
My point wasn't so much why cables should be thick as much as audiophiles cables are usually thick . Just s a slight correction.. resistance doesn't affect frequency response .... Inductance and capacitance however do. Microphony in cables is a hard concept to swallow scientifically, especially a power cord... But it can always be invoked as a rationale for what a cable is purported to do ... meanwhile most tubes are very microphonic.. to convince yourselves just tap your amps or preamp tubes with a pencil and likely hear the thud in your speakers.. do that with a cable and .... nothing..
We will go on debating about cables, if I were a cable company seeing how willing some segments of the audiophile market are to part with their money, I would continue to use those over-the-top pseudo scientific explanations ... More money in my coffers, no harm done, except, to Science and maybe to the High End industry in the long run...
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Frantz,
Speaker cable resistance affects the frequency response of the system - remember the speakers impedance depends on frequency. It is why many people say SET and tube amplifiers sound different. Also all types of cables (speaker, signal, power) have resonances and the associated resistances damps these resonances.
The big question is whether the changes due to these variations are audible. If they are, we have to accept that currently high-end audio is not scientific and is empirically driven, as no classical measurements have been able to correlate numbers and sound quality on this subject.
It is much easier to say that cables do not sound different and all the rest is imagination. But, as Galileo after he found that the Earth moves could not accept the geocentric Ptolemaic system, many people who heard the differences can not accept the frequency response and distortion dogmas.
I have no doubt that a Nordost Valhalla speaker cable sounds different from an Transparent Opus MM2 in my system. And I, as many others, would like to know why ...
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Microstrip
resistance does not affect FR. Resistance doesn't change with frequency... Impedance components are Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. The last two are frequency dependent resistance is not...
True that a change in resistance affects the impedance but that change is NOT frequency dependent ..
I have tried to sidestep the audibility of cables and if we can hear such differences. I must say that for video there is not much of a debate Any high End video image will quickly convince anyone there is NO difference between a premium HDMi cables and the ones from Belden/Canare /Blue Jeans... But for Audio, .. It goes on ... it is harder although very few if any audiophile are able to reliably recognize the contribution of their or anybody's cable (adequate cable) once knowledge removed ... let's not go further with that .. I will grant you that you or some may hear differences for the sake of the discussion ... Not that I am no longer convinced having been on the other side ....
it could be said that what constitute high End audio cables is very far from science, although Big Scientific terms and concepts are constantly invoked (Quantum Tunneling, Speed of light, Cryogenics, Group Delay, Vibration control, electrons alignment and even black Body Rdiations ...) ... It remains that for things that are very difficult to explain with any science or even metaphysics their prices remain brutally lofty .. Especially when the solution can be quite easy.. If for example ne absolutely wants to reduce capacitance then one can simply keep two normal wires apart . For that you need nothing but to space the wires, no big sheath or jacket required .. Kep the things apart spaced by a piece of wood if you will, nice carved wood from African mahogany or M'pingo wood if you want to
.... So what are we left with ? Some very nice piece of wires that are beautifully dressed and to which we can attach some nice "network" and some precious metal ( Silver is not that expensive but ...0 and suddenly we have a $40,000 item ... It would be Ok iif one would admit it is simply a nice item ... Patek Phillipe will never claim that their watches are more precise than any other Luxury watch or that iit is a superior Time keeper we know that, we know we are buying a status thing and are pleased with the Purchase. For time keeping we know what to trust and we know they cost less, much, much , much less .. Cables don't have this luxury, they proclaim superior performance and at a more than premium .. Such performance is quite evanescent .. it seems not to resist the simple test of removing the knowledge of what is there? In my book this is dangerously approach the definition of "scam".
P.S. FWIW I, also thought the Valhalla sounded better than anything else in my very own system ... until an experiment wthe results of which I have documented in this forum . Having failed the simple test of being able to recognize the presence or absence of the Nordost .. I have taken this view.. I remain also quite convinced that few if any audiophile can reliably determine the presence or absence of their wn cables .. when visual acknowledgment is removed ... I also think I understand very much the psychology behind many of our perceptions ... thus my new (less than 3 years old) pro objectivist views... I will also add that s I believe that electronics sound different and speakers the most different.. I also believe that one can hear the contribution of a clean power system .... I have NO clear explanation for such but I am willing to bet that this can be proven with knowledge removed ... I could be wrong ... wouldn't be the first time .. nor the last ...
resistance does not affect FR. Resistance doesn't change with frequency... Impedance components are Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. The last two are frequency dependent resistance is not...
True that a change in resistance affects the impedance but that change is NOT frequency dependent ..
I have tried to sidestep the audibility of cables and if we can hear such differences. I must say that for video there is not much of a debate Any high End video image will quickly convince anyone there is NO difference between a premium HDMi cables and the ones from Belden/Canare /Blue Jeans... But for Audio, .. It goes on ... it is harder although very few if any audiophile are able to reliably recognize the contribution of their or anybody's cable (adequate cable) once knowledge removed ... let's not go further with that .. I will grant you that you or some may hear differences for the sake of the discussion ... Not that I am no longer convinced having been on the other side ....
it could be said that what constitute high End audio cables is very far from science, although Big Scientific terms and concepts are constantly invoked (Quantum Tunneling, Speed of light, Cryogenics, Group Delay, Vibration control, electrons alignment and even black Body Rdiations ...) ... It remains that for things that are very difficult to explain with any science or even metaphysics their prices remain brutally lofty .. Especially when the solution can be quite easy.. If for example ne absolutely wants to reduce capacitance then one can simply keep two normal wires apart . For that you need nothing but to space the wires, no big sheath or jacket required .. Kep the things apart spaced by a piece of wood if you will, nice carved wood from African mahogany or M'pingo wood if you want to
.... So what are we left with ? Some very nice piece of wires that are beautifully dressed and to which we can attach some nice "network" and some precious metal ( Silver is not that expensive but ...0 and suddenly we have a $40,000 item ... It would be Ok iif one would admit it is simply a nice item ... Patek Phillipe will never claim that their watches are more precise than any other Luxury watch or that iit is a superior Time keeper we know that, we know we are buying a status thing and are pleased with the Purchase. For time keeping we know what to trust and we know they cost less, much, much , much less .. Cables don't have this luxury, they proclaim superior performance and at a more than premium .. Such performance is quite evanescent .. it seems not to resist the simple test of removing the knowledge of what is there? In my book this is dangerously approach the definition of "scam".
P.S. FWIW I, also thought the Valhalla sounded better than anything else in my very own system ... until an experiment wthe results of which I have documented in this forum . Having failed the simple test of being able to recognize the presence or absence of the Nordost .. I have taken this view.. I remain also quite convinced that few if any audiophile can reliably determine the presence or absence of their wn cables .. when visual acknowledgment is removed ... I also think I understand very much the psychology behind many of our perceptions ... thus my new (less than 3 years old) pro objectivist views... I will also add that s I believe that electronics sound different and speakers the most different.. I also believe that one can hear the contribution of a clean power system .... I have NO clear explanation for such but I am willing to bet that this can be proven with knowledge removed ... I could be wrong ... wouldn't be the first time .. nor the last ...
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If it changes any frequency response you're capable of hearing, it is measurable.
Tim
I made my own speaker cables with a DC 60v, power shielding, only voltage no current, also sound quite different with power shielding on and off, just in the same cable, no measurement to prove the change, may be magic
tony ma
Tony
If the answer saitsifies you then by all means ... ? But Iwill not get into whether you heard it or not .. I would like to know your answer to the current price of high Audio cables ... running nicelty toward $50,000 I am waiting for the first $100K speaker cable ... Do we want to bet ? 2 years from now ? This year? When ? Because there will be such ...
Frantz
Everyone have their own money value and also different judgement of the improvement between cables, and also cables reacte different in different systems, very hard to tell that change is worth or not, so DIY cable is good for me, even I buy the most expanesive materials still not too much compare to those Hi End products, if the result is not satisifly , I can break it and build it over again, a lot of fun in create new ideas but less to pay in money, friends of mine here all follow me in this way to give up thrie Hi End cables
tony ma
Everyone have their own money value and also different judgement of the improvement between cables, and also cables reacte different in different systems, very hard to tell that change is worth or not, so DIY cable is good for me, even I buy the most expanesive materials still not too much compare to those Hi End products, if the result is not satisifly , I can break it and build it over again, a lot of fun in create new ideas but less to pay in money, friends of mine here all follow me in this way to give up thrie Hi End cables
tony ma
Sorry if I was not clear in my explanation. Please consider the speaker cable, The resistance of the cable is placed in series between the amplifier and the speaker. The voltage signal at the speaker terminal is attenuated because if the cable resistance and this attenuation depends on the value of R and Zspeaker (speaker complex impedance) . As Zspeaker depends on the frequency the frequency response will change when you change R.
This is why the damping factor of amplifiers affects the frequency response, and speakers should not have very large impedance variations. Unhappily the maths of this attenuation and of resonance involves complex numbers.
Another related effect - if the output resistance of an amplifier is high (such as many tube amplifiers) they can not drive long cables because of capacitance, as it will attenuate high frequencies, But if output resistance is low they can drive easily the same capacitance with little hf attenuation. The variation of the resistance can really affect frequency response.
BTW, I read that you believe that electronics sound different. Aren't you curious to know why and relate these differences with measured data?
Tony,
JBL uses the same technique - many 9V batteries are used just to polarize the film capacitors in their excellent Project Everest DD66000 flagship speaker. They are a reputed speaker manufacturer - they are a genius.
Audioquest also uses this technique in their cables - they are cable manufacturers, the technique is just a scam ...
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