Apogee Full range

[Argonaut]

Harlequin, you'll find that most Apogee owners hold these speakers in high regard and in some ways among the best they've owned or heard, including myself. I don't know about Lee but my disconnect is the SET amps mentioned here in use with them. Having owned both the Diva and the Grand over a 10 year span amplification was always an issue, what drove them properly I didn't like sonically and what sounded good wasn't up to the task on demanding, dynamic music. That's why I dropped my Divas in the end for easier to drive speakers.david

My apologies for this tardy response ddk, only just noted your considerations quoted upon on the current page.
I quite concur with your summation regarding the mind set of current and former Apogee owners, as do I, being a member of the latter group myself over a 3 year period with Duetta Sig II's (amongst other Transducers at that time inc Quad 989's ) and very much enjoyed their more dynamic, muscular presentation to the Quads somewhat more restrained approach, however I would find the order of preference would tend to switch between the two panels depending on Genre, Recording and sometimes upon mood, both exhibiting relative strengths and weaknesses during reply.

I have spent considerable time over the years enjoying various models of Apogees, courtacy of friends and audiophile acquaintances, in systems built around disparate equipment and with varying degree of success, highlighting your most pertinant observation with regard to physics based synergy.

In and of that, would I agree that Apogee produced a range of models from good through excellent to the spectacular ? Indubitably so. Would I consider even the TOTL performing models to be the finest most complete transducers ever produced? I would not, with the caveat that IMHO no such universal exists, that drew in part my previous comment.

At some future point in time, post relocation to a larger audio room, I would very much like to acquire a pair of Full Range'ers given my predilection for the "Big Picture" style of reproduction.

 

[bonzo75]

If you are around a couple more decades you could buy mine after update l upgrade to the grands

 

[andromedaaudio]

Well i beg to differ ??

Personally one should always set up a system based on cables. I am not a fan of either speaker, source, or amp first argument. If you have good cables, and a lot of grounding, balanced power, then anything can sound good even in a bad room...oh wait...

 

[ddk]

My apologies for this tardy response ddk, only just noted your considerations quoted upon on the current page.
I quite concur with your summation regarding the mind set of current and former Apogee owners, as do I, being a member of the latter group myself over a 3 year period with Duetta Sig II's (amongst other Transducers at that time inc Quad 989's ) and very much enjoyed their more dynamic, muscular presentation to the Quads somewhat more restrained approach, however I would find the order of preference would tend to switch between the two panels depending on Genre, Recording and sometimes upon mood, both exhibiting relative strengths and weaknesses during reply.

I have spent considerable time over the years enjoying various models of Apogees, courtacy of friends and audiophile acquaintances, in systems built around disparate equipment and with varying degree of success, highlighting your most pertinant observation with regard to physics based synergy.

In and of that, would I agree that Apogee produced a range of models from good through excellent to the spectacular ? Indubitably so. Would I consider even the TOTL performing models to be the finest most complete transducers ever produced? I would not, with the caveat that IMHO no such universal exists, that drew in part my previous comment.

At some future point in time, post relocation to a larger audio room, I would very much like to acquire a pair of Full Range'ers given my predilection for the "Big Picture" style of reproduction.

I'm with you on that Harlequin, I don't think that they were the best ever either and we're on the same page regarding the varying qualities of different models. For me the Grand was the worst speaker that I owned in 35+ years of highend, period!

As much as I liked them I know the Diva's weren't perfect either, I was always searching and owned other speakers while I had them and would swing back & forth between them and the Divas depending on mood. But I did the same with amps and specially preamps too with various types of music, perhaps searching for that physics based synergy. The only time I was settled and totally satisfied with the Divas was when I had them bi-amped with two pairs of Lamm M2.1s, no changing or back & forth of any kind. Ironically that experience also led me to the opposite direction, Lamm SETs and high efficiency horns for the past 17 years...

david

 

[bonzo75]

The Grands the guy in Switzerland is running is on a flat 6 ohm impedance, David as opposed to 4 for his divas. He has been through multiple SS brands and finally settled with NATs, on his 4th upgrade now. The scintilla is the only one that needs a SS as a must even its restored state. There is a guy in the US running NATs on full ranges, and at least two running tube research lab on full range and duetta sig respectively. Lamm hybrid on studio grands

 

[ddk]

The Grands the guy in Switzerland is running is on a flat 6 ohm impedance, David as opposed to 4 for his divas. He has been through multiple SS brands and finally settled with NATs, on his 4th upgrade now. The scintilla is the only one that needs a SS as a must even its restored state. There is a guy in the US running NATs on full ranges, and at least two running tube research lab on full range and duetta sig respectively. Lamm hybrid on studio grands

Under load the Divas drop down to 1 ohm or less as do the Grands so the flat 6 or flat any ohm is a fantasy! Their efficiency is in the mid 80'sdb, that's according to the manufacturer. I had high & mid powered ARC, VTL, CJ, Jadis, CAT in single and bi-amp configurations, passive and active on the Divas with very pleasant results but it was never good/right enough otherwise I wouldn't have jumped around so much. I didn't really realize that the Divas were under driven until I got a pair of Levinson 33's on them. So yes people can drive them or any speaker with tubes and the Apogees will play sound but not to their full potential. The Grands are a different story, too many compromises and too many design flaws that aside from the price for to consider them a hi-end anything...

david

 

[bonzo75]

Yours were original. Restores have many mods including all panels and ribbons, frames ten times sturdier, and transformers are modded too. Don't ask me how. The definitive that Graz built has 100 db efficiency.

 

[ddk]

Yours were original. Restores have many mods including all panels and ribbons, frames ten times sturdier, and transformers are modded too. Don't ask me how. The definitive that Graz built has 100 db efficiency.

There were all kinds of mods back then too, they changed some things about the sound but never the nature of the beast. Sturdier frame just gives better focus, nothing more and that was easy to do even back in the day.

Restoration and modding are different things. Sure they're using new transformers because they can't get the original not because they're better! The tweaker guy giving you a speaker with different ribbons, magnets, frame and crossover and calling it an Apogee is simply being deceitful, like a wheeler dear selling a VW engined kit car with a badge as a Ferrari! In this case we're not discussing Apogee speakers any longer, put one of these made up kits side by side an original one and then you'll know what you're really getting...

The Graz Definitive speaker isn't an Apogee and according to their site not even a dipole, though I wonder what it is as a full ribbon panel ! As to the efficiency claims, I'd like to see some reputable 3rd party measurements of their speaker and a list of the horns that they're comparing it to. All I see is an overpriced panel of sorts made by some unknown manufacturer using an off the shelf digital crossover trying to pass it on to unsuspecting buyers under the shadow of some one else's brand! At least they're truthful about it being a Project...

Truth is Apogee speakers are inefficient and a difficult load, they were never anything else! I'm not saying not to like them but what is passed as an Apogee with unsubstantiated claims of sensitivity and resistance made from all new parts without consistency isn't actually one, there's no rational in discussing them as Apogee speakers.

david

 

[Steve Williams]

Out of curiosity what amps did Apogee demo their speakers with at the shows

 

[ddk]

Out of curiosity what amps did Apogee demo their speakers with at the shows

Never saw them at shows Steve, but I'd think it was with Krells.

david

 

[bonzo75]

They are actually referred to as Graz's apogees, and he did buy rights to the name. His bass ribbons especially are known to be much superior to the original. In fact, I haven't liked any original duetta, scintilla, even some restored ones are not as good, one needs to find the right restorer.. I am now waiting to listen to Henk's diva or duetta

 

[Steve Williams]

Krell was the only amp I ever recall hearing the speaker with or seeing it demoed with at shows hence my question

 

[DonH50]

Not at shows, but have heard (in days gone by) Apogees driven by Krell, Levinson, Perreaux, and Threshold SS; Futterman, CJ (may have been modified), and a modified ARC (to provide a 1-ohm tap) tube amps, plus a few others I don't recall off-hand. My PL 700 got pretty hot trying to drive them, I remember that pretty well. There was also a transformer to step up the load impedance seen by the amp to 4 ohms (for the original 1-ohm version, no idea who made it, just know we tried it a few times). I always felt the bass needed a big SS amp but the midrange and highs were sweet with a tube amp, once you got past the load issue.

I'm embarrassed to say that, though I have spoken with a few who have rebuilt Apogees, I did not make the connection to "Graz" 'til just now. Probably knew the company was long gone and just never searched. http://www.apogeeacoustics.com

 

[ddk]

They are actually referred to as Graz's apogees, and he did buy rights to the name. His bass ribbons especially are known to be much superior to the original. In fact, I haven't liked any original duetta, scintilla, even some restored ones are not as good, one needs to find the right restorer.. I am now waiting to listen to Henk's diva or duetta

Then we're talking apples & oranges, that needs to be clarified in the conversation Ked. The so called new "Apogee" is a different speaker even if it has the same name and should be distinguished from the original for clarity if nothing else.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Then we're talking apples & oranges, that needs to be clarified in the conversation Ked. The so called new "Apogee" is a different speaker even if it has the same name and should be distinguished from the original for clarity if nothing else.

david

Yes, all my positive comments are regarding Graz's apogees restored by Henk, and so far only FRs and Grands. Will wait to check his divas, duetta sigs

 

[Zero000]

There were all kinds of mods back then too, they changed some things about the sound but never the nature of the beast. Sturdier frame just gives better focus, nothing more and that was easy to do even back in the day.

Restoration and modding are different things. Sure they're using new transformers because they can't get the original not because they're better! The tweaker guy giving you a speaker with different ribbons, magnets, frame and crossover and calling it an Apogee is simply being deceitful, like a wheeler dear selling a VW engined kit car with a badge as a Ferrari! In this case we're not discussing Apogee speakers any longer, put one of these made up kits side by side an original one and then you'll know what you're really getting...

The Graz Definitive speaker isn't an Apogee and according to their site not even a dipole, though I wonder what it is as a full ribbon panel ! As to the efficiency claims, I'd like to see some reputable 3rd party measurements of their speaker and a list of the horns that they're comparing it to. All I see is an overpriced panel of sorts made by some unknown manufacturer using an off the shelf digital crossover trying to pass it on to unsuspecting buyers under the shadow of some one else's brand! At least they're truthful about it being a Project...

Truth is Apogee speakers are inefficient and a difficult load, they were never anything else! I'm not saying not to like them but what is passed as an Apogee with unsubstantiated claims of sensitivity and resistance made from all new parts without consistency isn't actually one, there's no rational in discussing them as Apogee speakers.

david

What a diabolical, unfair, biased , incorrect, resentful post which shows little knowledge of the truth and experience of how Apogees have been built and restored to way beyond their original specifications.

It also seriously derides the efforts and motivations of those involved in making better "Apogees" and in keeping existing speakers running.

 

[Argonaut]

I am curious as to whether the Graz re-built panels have removed that last, minor but noticable to me, trace of "metallic Zing" for want of a better description, inherent in the ribbon, particularly at higher SPL's ?

As to remaining a functioning corporeal entity two decades hence, Unknown at this time bonzo! However my game plan by then Would consist of one system built around ML CLX's, interchangeable with an Full Range Apogee or simila, as Mood/Genre dictates, in concert with a second system built around a True Horn driven by SET or possibly OTL.

 

[ddk]

What a diabolical, unfair, biased , incorrect, resentful post which shows little knowledge of the truth and experience of how Apogees have been built and restored to way beyond their original specifications.

It also seriously derides the efforts and motivations of those involved in making better "Apogees" and in keeping existing speakers running.

Since you claim to know it all why don't you expand where am I being factually diabolical, resentful, unfair, ...., etc. and what do you mean by better Apogees.

Of course I'm biased towards Apogees or I wouldn't have lived with them for over 10 years.

david

 

[Zero000]

Since when did I claim to know it all, David?

I just found your post more than a little skeptical and non-believing to say the least. And disrespectful to the efforts of the one man that has essentially kept the breed alive.

I have spent 3 odd years working with a restorer on Duetta improvements, specifying how they were made to a more than significant extent. That is the sum total of my knowledge and my experience is limited directly only to Duettas and Calipers. Hundreds of e-mails and long phone discussions mean I know one less than nothing, though.

The neodymium speakers made by Graz do lift efficiency by a large amount. They can't do anything else but, as field strength is dramatically improved.

A sturdier frame does not just improve focus. Mine are braced by an internal aluminium frame with lateral bracing, with super-sturdy stands that rise half way up the speakers that are bolted directly into this frame, forming a sort of sandwich. The seriously improves the coherence, bass definition, sense of ease and solidity to the sound. It also improves the dynamics, since the frame basically doesn't move as much.

The reality is that original Apogees were actually quite poorly made, to loose tolerances, and in some cases had quite poor magnet alignment and spacing. The paint finishes were sub-standard. Tolerances are critical with regards to magnet/ribbon spacing as I am sure you can appreciate.

If you followed the Apogee forum you'd realise that Graz isn't a rip-off merchant. He is a total enthusiast. OK so Definitive is expensive, but I know the prices charged for neodymium Synergy's and they are very, very reasonable. In one case, amazingly reasonable.

Advance 7 is a serious effort to make the best Duetta possible. That won't be cheap. Only when you appreciate exactly how it has been made do questions of the price become reasonable.

Have a you a link to the claim that Definitive isn't a dipole?

 

[Zero000]

I am curious as to whether the Graz re-built panels have removed that last, minor but noticable to me, trace of "metallic twang" for want of a better description, inherent in the ribbon, particularly at higher SPL's ?.

Of the Kapton backed mid-range/treble ribbons, I have experience of 3 different sets. KLM5 and then KLM2 - two pairs of KLM2 to be precise. KLM2 does sound less metallic.

What is really important is the cross-overs and tweaking them for a sound you like. KLM2's first implementation in my original Duetta refurbs displayed hyper-resolution. Literally astonishing detail way beyond Martin Logan levels. I just couldn't cope with it - too much detail IS possible with these designs. I deliberately had the x-over roll off the top end. A much more liveable result. Excellent, subjectively, in fact.

The KLM2s in my current Interstella sound great. The 3 to 4K region is critical, I have found. Any rise above a flat response here can cause the "metallic" blues. Its is ESSENTIAL to keep this flat.

All speakers should be able to convey metallic sound well, though. If they can't, they are not true to life. Cymbals and guitars do, after all, sound metallic.