Anyone into Naim gear?

[docvale]

I realized nobody here speaks about Naim gear.
I'm not that familiar with that brand, but when I had the chance to audition their amplification and CD players I found the sound really good.
Any opinion?

 

[amirm]

No hands on experience. But we were asked if were interested in carrying the line and I went online and the one review I found was not very positive measurement wise so we passed. See http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...al-Interconnects&p=36592&viewfull=1#post36592

The reputation is pretty positive though so don't let that one single data point color your view .

 

[flez007]

I was the Naimfan ?(moniker) for many years at different audio sites, I am very familiar with the olive line and had quite a few of their masterpieces, I really enjoyed my time having Naim gear (the Music forum at their site is fantastic), moved back to tubes and have not returned.

 

[puroagave]

at one time i drank the kool Aid from naims punch bowl l had some of the olive series amps/preamps and a few of the early 'chrome bumper' amps namely the nait. their founder Julian Vereker was into class-b output stages. the gear was idiosyncratic and used DIN plugs between components and BNC connectors for sources. the 'wrong' speaker cable could cause the amp to osciallate and take out the output tansistors. the naim 'system' approach was reminiscent of linn, you had to use their pre-amp with their amp connected to a flapcap (whats that for?) etc. to confuse matters no backward compatibilty between chrome bumper series and olive gear, insuring naim customer loyalty (inprisionment?) in perpetuity. the final straw came when i finally heard a complete naim system with their own speakers and concluded it wasnt worth the hassle. i left the brand and dumped it all.

after Vereker's death their line was revamped to the point it no longer honors the founders philosophy or intent. they're trying to play nice with the mix and match guys and they're too late, imho.

 

[asiufy]

I don't own any Naim gear, but I've heard a pre+power combo of recent vintage a few times, at a friend's place, with Dynaudio speakers.
Very impressive sound. He used to have a 50W amp, from one of the entry-level series, and it was impressive enough. He has upgraded since, and with separate power supply for the preamp, also quite impressive.
Apparently, they don't mandate that "sytem" approach anymore, so using third-party cables won't damage the equipment, and will actually provide some benefit, specially in the power cords.
My impression was that it's some very good equipment for the price categories they aim.


alexandre

 

[DaveyF]

I really liked their CD player, the CD5 and CD555 as well as some of their older amps. The Armageddon power supply for the Linn LP12 is also a very nice piece, IMHO.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

An upgrade path through better power supplies tells me that either a) They don't know how to spec a proper power supply in the first place or b) They'd simply like to fleece you of more of your money upgrading that which was doing a fine job prior to the upgrade. Either way, it's not my idea of an engineering approach that I want to buy into.

Of course none of that means it doesn't sound any good. Haven't heard it. Don't need to.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

An upgrade path through better power supplies tells me that either a) They don't know how to spec a proper power supply in the first place or b) They'd simply like to fleece you of more of your money upgrading that which was doing a fine job prior to the upgrade. Either way, it's not my idea of an engineering approach that I want to buy into.

Of course none of that means it doesn't sound any good. Haven't heard it. Don't need to.

Tim

Actually I have to disagree with you here, Tim. You should hear Naim gear, it's very good in its price range and offers a 'one shop' approach that works very well for a lot of people. Maybe even you.
Their upgrade path, from what i understand, was designed to be able to bring people into the gear at a lower price point and then if they wanted, and funds allowed, upgrade the same piece without having to re-sell and start over. Not a bad thing IMO.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Actually I have to disagree with you here, Tim. You should hear Naim gear, it's very good in its price range and offers a 'one shop' approach that works very well for a lot of people. Maybe even you.
Their upgrade path, from what i understand, was designed to be able to bring people into the gear at a lower price point and then if they wanted, and funds allowed, upgrade the same piece without having to re-sell and start over. Not a bad thing IMO.

Power supply is fundamental to the design, Davey. I'm not questioning whether or not the gear sounds good. But it either sells with a power supply that is up to the task or it doesn't. Which means the upgrade either shouldn't be necessary in the first place or is unnecessary in the second. MHO. YMMV. But I will not buy from a company that offers "upgrades" to something so basic that it should never be compromised in the first place.

Tim

 

[puroagave]

Actually I have to disagree with you here, Tim. You should hear Naim gear, it's very good in its price range and offers a 'one shop' approach that works very well for a lot of people. Maybe even you.
Their upgrade path, from what i understand, was designed to be able to bring people into the gear at a lower price point and then if they wanted, and funds allowed, upgrade the same piece without having to re-sell and start over. Not a bad thing IMO.

it sounded alright. at the time i was going through my british phase w/ spendor Sp1/2 and chartwell Ls3/5as used with the 'shoebox' nac 72 and nap 140 amp with a flatcap. julian took the less is more philsophy to new heights, the internals were always interesting to look at. the preamp boards were in vertical slots that could be easily swapped out in the field. the parts count was minimal and PCB traces looked like they were hand drawn with a sharpie - very cottage industry. its look was english-bauhaus if theres such a thing - cool and 'fugly' at the same time but never orthodox.

to their credit, naim inspired a whole slew of other quirky british minimalist gear like exposure, nva, onix, lfd, dnm, etc. they obviously have a following especially with older long-time audiophiles that bought the orginal nait I. fyi, the armageddon ps for the LP12 is just a toroid isloation xfmr and a very simple cap/resitor network...a far cry from the linn lingo it was compared to that had a sophisticated ac regeneration circuitry with lots of ICs, a proper PS etc.

 

[DaveyF]

Power supply is fundamental to the design, Davey. I'm not questioning whether or not the gear sounds good. But it either sells with a power supply that is up to the task or it doesn't. Which means the upgrade either shouldn't be necessary in the first place or is unnecessary in the second. MHO. YMMV. But I will not buy from a company that offers "upgrades" to something so basic that it should never be compromised in the first place.

Tim

Tim, of the Naim units I have heard, and I have heard several, I never felt that the power supply was so poor that the piece couldn't and didn't perform for its price point. A 'compromised' power supply isn't the description I would use. The upgraded power supply was far beefier and did bring improvements, but at a price that many listeners wouldn't opt for. Remember, the basic Naim pieces were looking towards almost a mid-fi Buyer, with the option of allowing that Buyer to upgrade to something that was closer to the better competing high performance gear.

I have to say that I don't see how you can say that the Naim gear is 'compromised' IF you have never heard it.

puroagave, I do agree with you that the Lingo is a far better power supply than the Armageddon, however, if I recall the Armageddon was less pricey.

 

[flez007]

Naim was one of the first companies that offered an upgrade path only thru better ACPS external boxes, they also grabbed the acronym of PRaT, and their manufacturing process was exemplar - their entry level systems kept the TOTL sonic signature, just more power and finesse. I am no longer familiar with the new line, but some people I respect as for music and audio preferences (are you hearing kuma???) became loyal followers of Naim gear.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have to say that I don't see how you can say that the Naim gear is 'compromised' IF you have never heard it.

I'll admit it is purely theoretical. I haven't heard it. It may sound great, right out of the box. But if it does, that would be all the more reason to look on that "upgrade" path with a jaundiced eye. I'll also admit to being a bit prejudiced against them for the whole PRaT thing. I'm not really anti-subjective at all; I understand that ultimately it is all subjective. But I am pretty staunchly anti-BS.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

I'll admit it is purely theoretical. I haven't heard it. But I am pretty staunchly anti-BS.

Tim

I'm with you on that. However, I do not believe that Naim's upgrade path was BS. The company was upfront in their marketing, disclosing that the entry level product was just that, and that there was a legitimate upgrade path...usually involving beefier power supplies for a premium. I think you assumed that the entry level power supply wasn't up to the job, and this is where I think your assumption was flawed, particularly since you admitted that you hadn't heard the gear under question.
I don't own Naim and never have, but I do think that their products ( at least the ones that i have heard) were worthy of consideration and their system approach was potentially valuable for a specific type of listener.
Next time Tim, please have some experience listening to the gear under discussion prior to 'slamming' it. Just a thought

 

[flez007]

I'm with you on that. However, I do not believe that Naim's upgrade path was BS. The company was upfront in their marketing, disclosing that the entry level product was just that, and that there was a legitimate upgrade path...usually involving beefier power supplies for a premium. I think you assumed that the entry level power supply wasn't up to the job, and this is where I think your assumption was flawed, particularly since you admitted that you hadn't heard the gear under question.
I don't own Naim and never have, but I do think that their products ( at least the ones that i have heard) were worthy of consideration and their system approach was potentially valuable for a specific type of listener.
Next time Tim, please have some experience listening to the gear under discussion prior to 'slamming' it. Just a thought

DaveyF - I was there, I got the stock preamps and cd players and then upgraded to flatcaps, the upgrade was not subtle or product of ones imagination, it just sounded far better.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm with you on that. However, I do not believe that Naim's upgrade path was BS. The company was upfront in their marketing, disclosing that the entry level product was just that, and that there was a legitimate upgrade path...usually involving beefier power supplies for a premium. I think you assumed that the entry level power supply wasn't up to the job, and this is where I think your assumption was flawed, particularly since you admitted that you hadn't heard the gear under question.
I don't own Naim and never have, but I do think that their products ( at least the ones that i have heard) were worthy of consideration and their system approach was potentially valuable for a specific type of listener.
Next time Tim, please have some experience listening to the gear under discussion prior to 'slamming' it. Just a thought

Davey, I'm not slamming anything. You and I are merely having a philosophical difference of opinion. Mine is that if an upgraded "beefier" power supply can affect an audible improvement in a component's performance, it was not designed and sold with right power supply in the first place. YMMV, of course, but experience with the component isn't necessary to reach this conclusion, only an understanding of the design philosophy/upgrade path is required.

Tim

 

[mep]

Davey, I'm not slamming anything. You and I are merely having a philosophical difference of opinion. Mine is that if an upgraded "beefier" power supply can affect an audible improvement in a component's performance, it was not designed and sold with right power supply in the first place. YMMV, of course, but experience with the component isn't necessary to reach this conclusion, only an understanding of the design philosophy/upgrade path is required.

Tim

Tim-I think you are off-base here. Do you not understand that the power supply is the heart and soul of any component and it usually represents the greatest cost if executed to a very high level? All gear is sold at a price point and the power supply used will reflect that price point. If you don’t think that a power supply that is designed at a much higher level of engineering refinement (and cost) won’t sound better than a power supply that was the best it could be at the price it had to come in at, you are sadly mistaken.

And to say that Naim or any other company who recognizes the reality of the price point they are delivering their gear at and builds their power supply the best they can at that price point is selling BS to their customers by offering them a much more refined power supply they can upgrade to at a later point in time is just flat wrong. Sometimes your thinking is too simplistic.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Do you not understand that the power supply is the heart and soul of any component and it usually represents the greatest cost if executed to a very high level?

Nope. Don't understand that. Based on this theory, every upgrade in power supply would deliver an audible improvement in sound until eventually we were carrying the PS for an mp3 player around behind us in a wheelbarrow. Based on this theory there would be no appropriate match of power supply and the demands of the device, only a continuing upward curve of performance. I've surely read Audiophile reports of night and day differences when they attached a bigger, heavier, better PS to a component. Can't say I've ever seen an Audiophile explain how that works, though, beyond platitudes like "heart and soul" and "executed to a very high level?" I'm listening, though.

Tim

 

[docvale]

Guys, I think that everyone here is giving an interesting contribution
Regarding various doubts someone might have in from of component upgrades, I honestly feel not that surprised. EVERY single brand that displays a ladder of series, from "entry" till "reference", sells the entry line with compromises within the construction and performance. And this occurs from digital or analog sources till speakers, going through cables.
If then someone is against a closed-system policy, I'm with him (despite, in the end, we're free to make our choices).
If someone thinks Naim is overpriced, well, I don't know... Definitely their reference products are very very expensive, even more than some statement American pieces of gear. But my interest into Naim comes, apart from a number of auditions which were pretty good, from their more accessible products.
A Supernait is not free, but might be a candidate heart for a high end system not costing a megabuck. It has digital inputs, can feed a Naim phonostage, including the affordable StageLine, and, if needed, might be upgraded with a HiCap (which is not so expensive). Add a turntable and a nice set of speakers and you have a complete, potentially very good system
I'd actually like to have some feedback about their integrated or Uniti series products.
I'll never afford their reference products but, in that case, I may go for brands that I know better and I know I'd live very happy with...

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, I'm not slamming anything. You and I are merely having a philosophical difference of opinion. Mine is that if an upgraded "beefier" power supply can affect an audible improvement in a component's performance, it was not designed and sold with right power supply in the first place. YMMV, of course, but experience with the component isn't necessary to reach this conclusion, only an understanding of the design philosophy/upgrade path is required.

Tim

Tim, I aplogize IF you are not slamming Naim, however, in your prior posts, you seemed to have the opinion that their upgradability was 'BS'. Which certainly appeared to me to be 'slamming' the company.
Also, I think that your opine that the product from Naim is delivered initially with an inadequate power supply; and that a more beefier power supply option is somehow implying that the stock piece is inappropriately spec'ed, just seems to be plain wrong. I can respect a philosophical difference IF you had some experience listening to the gear in question, BUT you don't....your'e simply shooting from the hip and now trying to justify that.
No problem, but IMHO again, you're just plain wrong.