American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

PeterA

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This strikes me as a really cynical interpretation of Peter’s intent. I don’t know Peter except through his posts here. My sense is that he appreciates his friendship with DDK and is excited to share this rather special adventure.

He does not appear to be trying to elbow his way into the main stream of audiophile commerce, or to hawk anyone’s specific wares.

Thank you Another Johnson.

From what I understand a number of these turntables are already sold. I do not know how many are left. As I said before, David doesn’t need any help from me. I’ll be curious to see if any owners are actually on WBF. We will see. If not, what I have shared might be it.
 
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Bobvin

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Ag

Agreed. I suspect at least 50% of the potential buyers of this table are WBF members. For such a high-end, esoteric piece of gear, WBF is a valuable marketing vehicle. I’m totally okay with that.
I think you over-estimate the reach of forums and blogs into our hobby. I think the # of folks who‘d have genuine interest and means to acquire such a beast is only slightly represented on WBF. I’m confident ddk has a large customer base from many years in audio and besides Peter we don’t hear from them here. Some might lurk, of course, but if WBF reach was truly substantial the advertisers would be banging down the doors.

I think the # of audio bloggers in the world is small compared to total # of audiophiles.
 

adyc

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I am sure the facets have important purposes of this TT. But every time I look at them, I can’t help thinking they look like barnacles on tortoise shell. Really want to use a knife to scrape them off.
 

PeterA

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Sorry if I missed the spec. How long does it take to get to 33.3 speed and stabilize.

Are you supposed to stop it between sides? Are you supposed to snatch and drop the vinyl hot?

What about a platter mat?

Rex, I did not notice the time it takes to get up to speed with the new turntable. My own turntable I help by giving it a spin with my hand because my thread tension is pretty loose.

I do not stop it between sides. There’s just too much mass. The new turntable even more so. I turn my turntable on and the electronics about an hour before I listen and I leave the table spinning all day until I’m finished listening. David has had an AS 2000 motor running continuously for a few years. Everything is very robust. I simply pick up the record and flip it over and put the record weight back on. It’s very easy and takes almost no time. It’s a much quicker process than say my old SME model 30 which had to be stopped because of the screw down clamp and my old Micro Seiki turntable which has vacuum hold down that had to be disengaged.

As with my AS 2000, the new turntable has a leather record mat on a slightly concave platter surface with a record weight. This combination is more effective at keeping the Lp flat than was the vacuum hold down on my Micro Seiki and SME with scrolled platter surface, washer and screw down clamp. My most warped record is completely flat on my turntable and I presume it would be the same on the new American Sound.
 
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PeterA

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Ag

Agreed. I suspect at least 50% of the potential buyers of this table are WBF members. For such a high-end, esoteric piece of gear, WBF is a valuable marketing vehicle. I’m totally okay with that.

I think this used to be the case with Ron Resnick, Rockitman, Tang, and MikeL all members ordering the AS2000. That is certainly no longer the case.

WBF has changed a lot in the last two or three years. Some of these potential customers have left the forum. The customer for this new turntable is not on WBF from what I gather. The turntable is too expensive and the future owners are not likely involved on WBF. They go where David goes and David is now doing his own thing.

I suspect some current owners of the AS 2000 will buy the new turntable. Those owners are no longer here. Tang, Rockitman and David left. Mike and Ron canceled their orders. I am the only AS 2000 owner still here and I will not be upgrading as much as I would love to. I am haunted by my memory of the way this turntable sounds.

I think a few of these turntables have already been sold and it had nothing to do with WBF. Keep in mind that David sold almost all of his earlier design before anyone heard it. Many of his customers buy based solely on his reputation. He is involved in other projects now that are not being discussed on WBF but have certainly interested customers.
 
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bonzo75

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I suspect some current owners of the AS 2000 will buy the new turntable. Those owners are no longer here. Tang, Rockitman and David left. Mike and Ron canceled their orders. I am the only AS 2000 owner still here and I will not be upgrading as much as I would love to. I am haunted by my memory of the way this turntable sounds.
Do you know if Rockitman and Mr T are upgrading?
 

PeterA

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Out of curiosity since you have visited this private system, featuring DDK's new Statement table, twice now, you probably have a decent sense for the overall sound reproduction capability (of this system, not specifically the ABSOLUTE NOTHING Turn Table). Generally speaking, how would you compare this "system", versus your own well curated one?
I realize yours features a vintage horn speaker versus a modern , but very expensive , non horn speaker, so there's probably a sizeable difference ( not necessarily better or worse) just based on this aspect alone.

That is an interesting question, MRJAZZ. The other system underwent some pretty radical changes between the two times I heard it. DDK made many changes to the set up finishing with room acoustics. Near the end, the system was really opening up and the room was full of energy and natural sound.

Of course now, that system has the new turntable that takes it to another level. David also brought in his Neumann cartridge. The other difference is the ML3 versus my ML2 and the cone versus horn speakers, as you note.

The vintage horns simply sound more alive and dynamic. Resolution is also slightly higher, but the Karmas are more extended, especially in the bass. The overall balance is about the same. Both systems sound natural to me, but the presentations are slightly different. In simple terms, the other system is more extended but less nuanced. Both get the gestalt, the holistic quality of live music. Both have great presence, especially now with the new turntable, and that sense of calm and relaxation with powerful room filling energy. His system is bold but not as nimble with the big full range cones. Mine is not quite as extended, but has a magic that I have only heard from a few vintage horns with Lamm SETs and great vinyl. I really like both systems, and would probably prefer his on rock and really large scale classical. On smaller scale chamber, choral, concertos and jazz, I would prefer mine.

Those are the differences, but really the systems are more similar than different, basically because they both exhibit all the qualities I list in my system thread about natural sound. I think they have more in common with each other in terms of approach and values than they do with many other contemporary HiEnd systems.

Someday I will hear David’s new table in his own system, and I strongly suspect that will be the one system that sounds most like the real thing with all that the new table brings with the Neumann along with that magical Lamm SET and vintage horn combination.
 
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PeterA

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Do you know if Rockitman and Mr T are upgrading?

I have not heard. I do not plan to discuss details about the owners. It is not my place to do so. David did start some interesting AS2000 delivery and set up threads in his sub forum, but that will not happen here this time. This thread might be the only such discussion.
 
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BruceD

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Peter if there is ever an Oscar for patience of Jobe, sensibility , fortitude, diligence, self control, calmness of situ, absence of angst,

You would hose in unopposed !!

Can't think of any more platitudes ;) -kudos indeed for keeping this Ship on its course.

BruceD
 

Amir

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David Karmeli has worked for five years on his latest, and likely, final turntable design, The Absolute Nothing. The name is based on the idea that the turntable does not add or remove anything from the information imbedded in the record groove. This is an ultra high mass thread drive design and the culmination of what David has learned about turntable design over the past several decades. To improve on the AS2000 design, he had to go to extremes.

Here are some of the details: The platter weighs 300 lbs. The base weighs about 600 lbs, the motor unit weighs about 100 lbs. The stand, an integral part of the design, weighs another 350 lbs or so. The motor casing is machined from a single block of stainless steel. It is the same Pabst motor as in the AS2000, but now has a three phase motor controller. Rather than the five digit speed display, the new turntable has a strobe on the platter. The massive platter floats on a cushion of air, just like the AS2000. The platter is wider and taller but can be driven easily by the thin thread for minimal contact with the motor pulley/flywheel. The massive base has an irregular pattern of facets on its surface that are designed to control the internal resonances in the base and draw them away from the platter. There are isolation devices integrated into the motor unit, the stand, the arm mounts, and the footers. The motor controller has a worm-drive mechanism that allows one to adjust the thread tension. Motor torque and speed can be fine tuned. Everything is designed with a purpose.

I first saw drawings for this turntable a couple of years ago. David has been working on this for the last five years. CDK84, a fellow WBF member, and I visited the factory and met David a month ago, and then again last week to oversee the move from the factory to the first owner's listening room. After helping to assemble the turntable, David set up the SME 3012R tonearm and Neumann cartridge.

It was clear from the moment the Neumann stylus hit the first groove that this turntable takes the presentation to the next level. There is an uncanny calmness. The presentation is utterly relaxed yet somehow full of energy. The music comes alive in the room and the musicians are present in front of the listener. What this turntable does better than any other turntable I have heard is remove the sense that there is anything mechanical between the listener and the performance captured on the record. My AS2000 does this very well, but The Absolute Nothing takes it further by a margin I did not think was possible.

There is nothing in the presentation that is emphasized, just the ease of the performers in the room. My simple take is that the bass primarily, but also the rest of the information on the record is not corrupted or obscured by the mechanical nature of other turntables. There is more information that comes through to the cartridge and tonearm. When the arm and cartridge are at the level of the 3012R and the Neumann, it seems as if all of the music captured in the vinyl comes through, at least more than I have heard from any other table. There is just more of everything presented naturally. Nothing seems missing because there is just so much more music flowing forth.

I listened until 5:30 in the morning and left for Boston a couple of hours later driving for hours to hear a chamber concert of harp, flute, and strings later that night. Having heard the new turntable in an all Lamm Signature and Karma Midi Grand Exquisite system, followed so closely by a live chamber concert, it is clear to me that David has narrowed the gap between the live and reproduced pretty dramatically.

"Nothing between the listener and the recording" - David's description gets to the essence of this new turntable. It is also what is behind his approach to system set up. David Karmeli has achieved something truly remarkable here, and I could see his satisfaction as he listened. The pride of a designer working hard and then achieving success. I feel fortunate to have witnessed it and heard it as he did for that first time.

View attachment 128936


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Three videos:



Thank you for sharing
 

Amir

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Congratulations, David, on creating such a magnificent piece.
 

Amir

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Ron if anybody can be accused of forum commercialization its you
Its all you do lately , so you should be the last to point the finger afaic

When I registered here and I read many posts in WBF then I found audio thinking of David @ddk is very different. His knowledge and experience is so much more than most other members.
after awhile David left here and I am so sorry he is not here to answer the questions.

Some members try to post Off-topics here and they bold the marketing aspect of david activity.
I hope Ron and other site admins change this space and let we see valid information from experts like david.
 

phoni

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Hey guys,
I was wondering if American Sound has a website. I couldn't find anything on Google, so I was hoping you might know! Thanks so much!
 
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bonzo75

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tima

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Hey guys,
I was wondering if American Sound has a website. I couldn't find anything on Google, so I was hoping you might know! Thanks so much!



 
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Kingrex

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The platter seems to have started to slow on this thread.
 

Lagonda

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The platter seems to have started to slow on this thread.
Don't worry, we will speed it up with some hot air, as we always do on WBF ! ;)
 

PeterA

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There is not much more to learn or discuss here. One table has been delivered and it is in a private home whose owner is not a member here. Very few people have heard it, and David is no longer here. As other samples get sold, delivered, and set up, there may be some more information, but it may be hard to find. Eventually, one could visit David in Utah, but at that point, the tables may be gone and not in public view.

One hears little about the really rare coveted components and even less about the systems. Some dealers have some flagship products, and they may get reviewed and shown at shows, but not many people have heard them and rarer still are meaningful listening impressions shared on public forums. The mainstream products are out there and reviewed. This turntable is not one of those.
 
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howiebrou

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Rex, I did not notice the time it takes to get up to speed with the new turntable. My own turntable I help by giving it a spin with my hand because my thread tension is pretty loose.

I do not stop it between sides. There’s just too much mass. The new turntable even more so. I turn my turntable on and the electronics about an hour before I listen and I leave the table spinning all day until I’m finished listening. David has had an AS 2000 motor running continuously for a few years. Everything is very robust. I simply pick up the record and flip it over and put the record weight back on. It’s very easy and takes almost no time. It’s a much quicker process than say my old SME model 30 which had to be stopped because of the screw down clamp and my old Micro Seiki turntable which has vacuum hold down that had to be disengaged.

As with my AS 2000, the new turntable has a leather record mat on a slightly concave platter surface with a record weight. This combination is more effective at keeping the Lp flat than was the vacuum hold down on my Micro Seiki and SME with scrolled platter surface, washer and screw down clamp. My most warped record is completely flat on my turntable and I presume it would be the same on the new American Sound.
Peter, how do you change a 10"or 7" record without stopping the platter?
 

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