Alexandria three-dimensionality?

[microstrip]

My apologies. Please assume the word "many" in front of the word "audiophiles." There are always exceptions. And please remember that the point is not just about the speakers, but the room and the setup. Given enough distance from the speaker, yes, I'm sure huge speakers can image small ensembles. How far back from your speakers do you sit? How much free space is around them? Here are the Alexandrias...

View attachment 6584

I don't know how tall Mr. Wilson is, but he seems to consistently be the tallest man in every group photo I've seen him in. So that tweeter is 4.5, 5 feet off the floor. That tweeter carries the attack transients of nearly every instrument recorded, and the attack transient is what our hearing and brain use to "locate" sounds. Sit down, 10 or 12 feet away from those speakers, and those locating transients are well above your head. Now, make your classic equilateral triangle. Get those speakers out far enough away from the walls to work properly. get the listening position far enough away from the wall behind it. You've got a pretty good system setup for a listen distance of 10 - 12 feet in a room, what? Pretty close to 20 x 20. That's a good sized room, and the perspective is still such that the sound stage would assume your string quartet is up on a high stage and you're in one of the first few rows.

Unless you're telling me that the dispersion of the tweeters (the most directional of all speakers) in those Alexandrias are so good that their vertical position in the array is completely transparent. That would be very, very good. I've played with speaker position for years. I'm absolutely convinced that you get the best imaging if the tweeters are very close to ear level. I don't seem to be the only one who has come to this conclusion. The inability to place tweeters and woofers optimally, is, IMO, the Achilles heel of super-sized floor standers. All speaker types have their weakness. This is theirs. At least that's the way I hear it. YMMV.

Tim

Tim,

It is what it is impressive with well setup Alexandria's - you are not listening to the treble from tweeters or middle frequencies from the medium speakers - the whole sound integrates at a level similar to your ear. The scale of the speaker is not given by soundstage height, but for the power of the sources in the illusionary soundstage.

The Aida's tweeters height is around 52" - although my ears are around 36" I have never had the feeling that you are referring - I was just listening to a Jordi Savall recording with plenty of percussive treble and the instruments were in the adequate positions for this recording. I seat typically at 12 feet. One great tall speaker that also had perfect treble plane height was the Thiel CS5.

However, I agree with you that if these tall speakers are not properly setup you can get the very disagreeable feeling that the treble sound is coming from the upper corners of the room.

 

[A.wayne]

The Wilson tweeter is at an odd height from a design point of view, but it is also part of an adjustable focus array. This array can be adjusted to give the correct focus within reason to compensate for differing seat heights. The issue with doing so is a defined listening distance and sweet spot .


Setup in relation to seat position height and distance is very critical ......

 

[rockitman]

Tim,

It is what it is impressive with well setup Alexandria's - you are not listening to the treble from tweeters or middle frequencies from the medium speakers - the whole sound integrates at a level similar to your ear. The scale of the speaker is not given by soundstage height, but for the power of the sources in the illusionary soundstage.
.

I don't think Tim understands the fully adjustable (to ear height) nature of the propagation delay settings for each driver module. The point of which is for all the sound to arrive to one's ears at the same time.

 

[MylesBAstor]

However, I agree with you that if these tall speakers are not properly setup you can get the very disagreeable feeling that the treble sound is coming from the upper corners of the room.

In forty years of audio, I've never heard that happen unless it was on the recording such as a multimiked jazz drum set where the engineer put some of the mikes in one channel and part in the other and created a larger than life, smeared drum set.

 

[Steve Williams]

Tim and trponhunter. I hate to say it but you guys are totally clueless in the set up if the Alexandria EACH upper module adjusts back and forth and up and down and images right at my ears. Before you start blowing smoke about faulty speaker design please get your facts correct

 

[trponhunter]

Tim and trponhunter. I hate to say it but you guys are totally clueless in the set up if the Alexandria EACH upper module adjusts back and forth and up and down and images right at my ears. Before you start blowing smoke about faulty speaker design please get your facts correct

that's funny!!

 

[microstrip]

In forty years of audio, I've never heard that happen unless it was on the recording such as a multimiked jazz drum set where the engineer put some of the mikes in one channel and part in the other and created a larger than life, smeared drum set.

OK Myles, I was exaggerating the effect somewhat ...

 

[jap]

Tim and trponhunter. I hate to say it but you guys are totally clueless in the set up if the Alexandria EACH upper module adjusts back and forth and up and down and images right at my ears. Before you start blowing smoke about faulty speaker design please get your facts correct

I think you're right about Tim, but trponhunter is Mark Goldman, President of Sound Components in Coral Gables, FL, who use to be a Wilson dealer. He frequently posts over on AA praising Rockport speaker performance over Wilson.

 

[rockitman]

I think you're right about Tim, but trponhunter is Mark Goldman, President of Sound Components in Coral Gables, FL, who use to be a Wilson dealer. He frequently posts over on AA praising Rockport speaker performance over Wilson.

sour grapes perhaps ?

 

[mep]

sour grapes perhaps ?

I think an appropriate question would be did he give up the Wilson line or did he lose the Wilson line?

 

[Steve Williams]

that's funny!!

I stand by what I say. Not only can the tweeter be adjusted for precise distance from speaker to ear but so also height of ear from floor. As well the upper and lower midrange modules can also be so adjusted. Probably the only speaker on the market that addresses these issues

Now if trponhunter is indeed who you say he is and if he is a dealer according to our TOS that MUST be divulged for obvious reasons

 

[ricjor1]

I think you're right about Tim, but trponhunter is Mark Goldman, President of Sound Components in Coral Gables, FL, who use to be a Wilson dealer. He frequently posts over on AA praising Rockport speaker performance over Wilson.

I remember when I was looking to upgrade from Wilson Sophia 3's and he convinced me to listen to Rockport Mira 2's. He thought the Mira 2's @(17K) sound better than both Wilson Sasha's and Sophia 3's. My wife and I compared the Mira 2's and the Sophia 3's in the same system/room. Although I thought the Mira 2's did sound good, both of us preferred the sound of the Sophia 3's. Since I had already compared the Sasha's to Sophia 3's and thought the Sasha's were significantly better, I didn't compare the Mira 2's to the Sasha's. Since that experience I've learned to take what he say's with a grain of salt. I've been in sales for 20 years and realize that although he may believe what he is saying, he is a salesman. I submit authorized dealers on blogs should be required to identify who they are...it helps put things in perspective!

 

[trponhunter]

Well, full disclosure is fine for me. Wilson dropped me as a dealer about 2 years ago. I don't want to go into the details, but I was quite surprised, as our business volume was quite good. In addition to being a dealer, I used to work for Wilson as director of sales for 3 and a half years. Needless to say, I've set up quite a few Wilson speakers over the last 15 years . Not really sour grapes, but my views on speakers have evolved and changed since I had to re investigate whats out there after they dropped me. I didn't want to bring in a line just because it was all I could get, so I embarked on trying to really educate myself on speaker and driver design, as much as I could. I rejected a lot of lines, because I didn't truly believe in them. Losing the Wilson line was re invigorating for me - it forced me on a journey of re learning and studying various aspects of speaker design. I think I learned a lot on the way, and it made me really passionate about audio again. I don't think Wilson makes bad speakers at all, and many of my friend still sell them. I used to think they made the very best speakers in the world, and promoted them as such for many years, and in some areas, I still beleive they make really excellent speakers. I know they are built with passion, and Dave Wilson really cares. I just think there are other areas that are important about the design of speakers that may not be the top priorities for Wilson, based on what I've learned, and that's ok - different strokes, for different folks, as they say.
As I mentioned, previoulsy, I think diffraction issues are significant, and I personally also like the idea of the tweeter being at ear height - not a dig at Wilson, just a difference of views based on my investigating and listening. As stated earlier, I also thing large multi driver, full range speaker have a lot of things going against them in many ways.
What I post are my personal beliefs in terms of what is important in loudspeaker design to me today, not any type of sour grapes. At this point, I post what I believe as a hobbyist. As a dealer, I can never sell out of my market area, so the forums are for enjoyment, not business. If you don't agree with my views, that's ok - everyone doesn't have to agree all the time - that's the point of a hobbyist forum. But I can assure you, everything I write is what I believe, not any type of residual sour grapes - the last few years have got me back into high end audio, and I'm enjoying it more than I have in a lot of years - hence my participation on this forum and others. I've been having too much fun in high end recently for the sour grapes to still remain.
By the way, I only post on areas that I have first hand experience - mostly relating to loudspeakers, subwoofers and room interactions.
Now that I've fully disclosed (as perhaps I should have earlier), I hope we can move on and I can continue to post, have interaction with other forum members, and not be classified as clueless (I really don't take offense by the statement).

 

[A.wayne]

I cant help but giggle at the Irony , Mark (sound components) and Peter (Wilson) , let the discussion begin ...

Anyway welcome Mark , Maybe Peter will join in and set the dynamics. I know Wilson had opened a new dealer 2 yrs ago in Miami, they're nowhere near the level of SC ...

Regards ,

 

[trponhunter]

I cant help but giggle at the Irony , Mark (sound components) and Peter (Wilson) , let the discussion begin ...

Anyway welcome Mark , Maybe Peter will join in and set the dynamics. I know Wilson had opened a new dealer 2 yrs ago in Miami, they are nowhere near the level of SC ...



Regards ,

It is a bit ironic, I know. Thank you for your welcome and kind words. I would like to respectfully ask all forum members to refrain from bring Peter into this. I will be happy to answer most all questions, bur Peter was a mentor of mine - I learned a lot from him, and he really shouldn't be brought into any of this in fun.

Thank you

 

[Steve Williams]

Mark

Thanks for that and please accept my apologies because even I can have these knee jerk reactions when I see it involves gear I know like the back of my hand.

Having said that it seems we both agree that a tweeter should be at ear level. I contend the Wilson method is more accurate if you tell me that the tweeter should be at a fixed height but I ask "for whose height". IOW is imaging the same in your scenario for a person who is 5'6" vs someone who is 6'2". Wilson speakers can be set for each ear height as well as take into account your distance from the speaker.

 

[jap]

well, full disclosure is fine for me.

lol!!!

If I hadn't ID'd you, you would have continued to degrade WA products here just like you do on AA to promote your current line of products.

IMO, you represent everything that's wrong with this hobby.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Good thread; I enjoyed reading it. :b

 

[trponhunter]

lol!!!

If I hadn't ID'd you, you would have continued to degrade WA products here just like you do on AA to promote your current line of products.

IMO, you represent everything that's wrong with this hobby.

Fair enough - as I stated earlier, in hindsight, full disclosure should have happened sooner, and wish I did. I have never intentionally tried to hide my identity, and other sites I have disused that I have a store and had open conversations about it. My intent isn't to promote only things I sell, but as I generally only post on topics I am familiar with, it somewhat limits me to what I sell or sold. I could also talk about things like Thiel, Martin and the old Duntech soveriegns (and sometimes do), but state of the art level speakers are more my personal interest. As mentioned earlier, most of my posts have to do with the areas of speaker reproduction that have become more important to me, and represent my priorities as of today, as a listener. If you don't think my posts are accurate and credible, that's ok -I don't agree with everything written all the time either.

 

[trponhunter]

Mark

Thanks for that and please accept my apologies because even I can have these knee jerk reactions when I see it involves gear I know like the back of my hand.

Having said that it seems we both agree that a tweeter should be at ear level. I contend the Wilson method is more accurate if you tell me that the tweeter should be at a fixed height but I ask "for whose height". IOW is imaging the same in your scenario for a person who is 5'6" vs someone who is 6'2". Wilson speakers can be set for each ear height as well as take into account your distance from the speaker.

Thanks Steve, apology accepted - no problem, as I mentioned, I wasn't really very offended.In general, I like tweeters to be approximately at ear height when seated, as they are the most locatable driver based on their frequency response. I also think image height is something very over rated - for me at lest. I have experienced the alignment that Wilson uses and can vouch for it first hand in terms of its appearance of lowering image height, when properly adjusted. I personally always seem to perceive the approximate height of the image at around the tweeters level on any speaker I listen to. However, I still think if the driver layout can be arranged accordingly by the speakers designer, around seated ear height is the best for me. I also would not love the idea of the big YG speakers tweeter position, as an example. This is one of the reasons that got me active in this thread - that simpler designs with fewer drivers allow this - ie - the Sasha would be more my style on balance because of its simplicity.