A Search for Truth and Tonality

[fas42]

Just found a thread on Audiogon, which gives a quite excellent idea of the type of tweaking I do, and the effects that it has: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1328289757&openfrom&1&4. Now, big disclaimer: this is not the journey that I've followed, this chap's methods are quite different from mine, but the sort of results he's getting mirror how I made progress.

The key aspect of this type of tweaking is that everything depends on everything, and understanding what is really going on is difficult and many times, quite frankly, leads down wrong turnings. And I would almost guarantee that what you have to do varies for every combination of gear.

Again, tweaking in this fashion can be very frustrating, very mysterious in its results at times, but definitely very worthwhile, when you hit the jackpot ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

With apologies to Mark (mep), here are 2 quotes from recent posts of his:

And Tim is right, once you have heard the sound of drums and cymbals being played live and up close and personal, you will realize how far we have yet to go. Cymbals literally cut the through the air and you can hear it. The shimmer and the decay are something to behold.

The only surprise was how high the imaging is with the JBLs. I just plopped them on the floor and lashed them up and expected to hear images that were about as tall as the speakers. These speakers really should be on some sort of stands. What I heard was imaging that was double the height of the top of the speaker. I kept looking at my main speakers and thinking the imaging even sounded higher than what I normally achieve with them. It was quite the parlor trick. There is way too much treble energy with the JBL speakers for my taste though. They are just too hot on top for me

This is the apparent paradox of a lot of high fidelity: a system that generates "big", intense sound is often too apparently strident and in your face. But it is not really a paradox: the JBLs are doing exactly what they're told to do, easily create the sound pressure levels that correspond to live music. But, when you experience such sound levels you are also, painfully, aware of every little deficiency in that sound that quite severely clashes with the musical content -- can people spell "distortion" yet?

So how to resolve the "problem"? Well, as I've said over and over again, the solution is not to attribute the unpleasantness of this dynamic reproduction to excess treble energy, or metal tweeters, or the myriad other villians so often offered up, but plain old lack of correctness of the sound, which is just too audible at these higher sound levels. To put it bluntly, if Mark dumped his system in my lap, I would ditch his current speakers and insert those JBLs, because they give the system a greater potential for delivering realistic sound, all else being equal ...

Frank

 

[treitz3]

Do you post just to talk to yourself and believe your own posts, Frank?

Honest question.

 

[JackD201]

Frank, you would be doing yourself a favor if you broadened your distortion hunt beyond the electronics. I mean this sincerely and as a friend.

 

[fas42]

Frank, you would be doing yourself a favor if you broadened your distortion hunt beyond the electronics. I mean this sincerely and as a friend.

Thanks, Jack, and I appreciate that you're saying this to help put me in a better light here on the forum. But, the journey I'm pursuing has led steadfastly in a certain direction, and nothing in terms of evidence, in other words, experiencing of high fidelity reproduction on various systems, leads to any other conclusion.

One thing that has been clear from the word go, is that the more expensive the system, the more perfectly it highlights any weaknesses or deficiencies somewhere in the chain -- the out of balance wheel on the Ferrari syndrome. And, since I will be experiencing driving for many hours a day, I'll take the untroubled Honda over the precarious Ferrari any day.

Since day 1 of getting the "good" sound, 25 years ago, it has been clear where the key problems lay, and it certainly wasn't speaker drivers, or room. Speaker internals, yes, the pretty poor standard of fittings within the glossy exterior of a very high percentage of speakers is important, but that is still part of the electronics path. As an example, Mark's JBLs would need a major fixup of junk connections, and dumping of the potentiometers, and general sorting out of the crossover components, but once done, they would be capable of very impressive results.

And to Tom: if my remarks disturb you, you can always choose to ignore them. I know what I hear, I know what a high percentage of others hear, and, sorry, that other is not my cup of tea. I want my music to sound like the real thing, not a hifi system ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Frank doesn't offend anyone; leave him alone folks, and try to read beyond the 'subjective'. :b

And don't address the poster (well you know what I mean),
but the post's content for an 'objective' profiling of the subject at hand.

 

[fas42]

Bob, you're a good man to have around ...

By the way, I've worked out the next tweak for the HT: 400 of, genuine $100 notes, use paper glue to apply to and cover all visible surfaces of the system to an appropriate depth. This should add a great depth of quality, an aura of desirability to the sound, and enhance the visibility and impressiveness of the soundstage dramatically ...

Thanks,
Frank

 

[fas42]

To use that poor car analogy for the umpteenth time: the concern that people have that system sound is so dependent on speaker drivers and rooms is equivalent to saying the experience when driving a car is only as good as the quality of its tyres and how scrupulously manicured and cleaned is the road that the vehicle is about to proceed down. From my point of view, that is ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Frank, you would be doing yourself a favor if you broadened your distortion hunt beyond the electronics. I mean this sincerely and as a friend.

An added thought. I'm well aware what a high quality speaker system will bring to the table, I've heard this many times relatively recently on my friend's system. Since his speakers are manifold superior to the ones I currently use, the advantages in very specific areas are obvious. Firstly, they require less heavy driving from cold to condition the suspensions, offset by the fact that the crossovers require quite a decent burn-in each time, something I don't have to worry about. Secondly, on the right material, the superiority of tone, meaning less colouration by driver misbehaviour, is obvious: this is with your typical audiophile material, simple acoustic, single instrument recordings with minimal ambience clues, very gentle dynamics.

But, these advantages are offset by the struggle, on his system, to maintain the overall picture, to build a bigger illusion. Sometimes it comes together, very impressively, only to have it falter later in the day, or next time I visit. His bass is particularly suspect, which since it's Naim amplification and speakers would be somewhat surprising to some: at times it's very authorative and striking, other instances it's quite anaemic, totally unconvincing.

So, what changes between these various phases of behaviour? Well, absolutely nothing in the area of the speakers or room, the speakers are quite reasonably tweaked as of now, but the variables are always what has been done to improve the electronics, from within, and by moderating the level of interference from external causes.

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frank's pursuit of distortiom does go beyond electronics, and always has, to cabinet stability and speaker coupling.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

He does skip acoustics and driver related distortions like thermal compression.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

He does skip acoustics and driver related distortions like thermal compression.

He skips many, many things. Basically, Frank seems to believe that everything standing between any system and perfection is all in stuff fundamental enough for him to deal with personally. He can't do a thing about driver related distortions which are, of course, most of the problem. He believes, instead that blue tak, concrete blocks, the elimination of airborne interferences, and the alteration of connections can render all the more substantive reproduction challenges moot. He tweaks; then he hears. The ability of his tweaks to substantively affect the sound, the many, more powerful distortions that his tweaks don't impact, have no impact on what he hears. He tweaks; then he hears. Ritual followed by result. Ritual as result. There is no separation between them; they are one.

It is the most remarkable case of expectation bias I have ever witnessed.

Tim

 

[Steve Williams]

He skips many, many things. Basically, Frank seems to believe that everything standing between any system and perfection is all in stuff fundamental enough for him to deal with personally. He can't do a thing about driver related distortions which are, of course, most of the problem. He believes, instead that blue tak, concrete blocks, the elimination of airborne interferences, and the alteration of connections can render all the more substantive reproduction challenges moot. He tweaks; then he hears. The ability of his tweaks to substantively affect the sound, the many, more powerful distortions that his tweaks don't impact, have no impact on what he hears. He tweaks; then he hears. Ritual followed by result. Ritual as result. There is no separation between them; they are one.

It is the most remarkable case of expectation bias I have ever witnessed.

Tim

If it is expectation bias the last time he had good sound was 25 years ago. Sort of like Waiting For Godot

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If it is expectation bias the last time he had good sound was 25 years ago. Sort of like Waiting For Godot

If you follow him closely, Steve you'll know that the first time thought he had good sound was 25 years ago. He has experienced it many times since then, but it is as fleeting as a phantom - here in this moment, gone in the next. I think that is probably a couple of things; expectation bias is very connected to mood and mind set, and I suspect all his tweaking has probably seriously boogered (the technical term) his system.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Tsk, tsk, Tim. And for a moment I thought you might have made some progress -- ah, well ...

Why I believe what I can do makes the difference, is because firstly, the initial positive result occurred totally unintentionally, as a result of some highly enthusiastic tweaking of the moment: a fortunate circumstance of timing. And of course virtually all of you at one stage or other have experienced it to some degree, probably fleetingly, which in part is why you all persist with this madness of a hobby, undaunted by the relatively poor return on investment.

Now, because of the background of my engineering education, but really because this is the way I'm made; when something happens once my rational mind deduces that a particular phenomenon, once experienced, can be made to repeat again, and again, and again. At will, if possible. And hence the rest of the story ...

How the phenomenon, good sound, can be conjured up by push of a button then needs to be explored, that strange thing called experimentation gets called upon. Which is how the various items I mention are brought to the fore, they're the things that "work", other things have much less value. Like excessively expensive, "magical" cables ...

Unlike some here, when I hear a very expensive system playing I don't think "this is impressive!" -- it more frequently is along the lines of "this sounds like sh!t!". Hence, I haven't gone down this particular path, seeing something very costly, and "expecting" it to sound brilliant ...

As regards acoustics, refer to the analogy of a live drum kit in a "poor listening environment" - is it going to sound soggy and listless, or will it still blow you over with the impact? Thermal compression? I have yet to experience such, I'm sure if I pump full level sine wave into the drivers they will get unhappy, but the protection circuitry in the amps is what has saved the day so far -- the compression has always occurred in the amps for me.

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As regards acoustics, refer to the analogy of a live drum kit in a "poor listening environment" - is it going to sound soggy and listless, or will it still blow you over with the impact?

No, it will annoy you to know end with its rattle, rumble and hiss. It's will sound blurry, smeared, harsh, indistinct. The best environment to listen to a drum kit in close proximity is a treated room, like the one I recorded in yesterday. A stark comparison to the wood-paneled room with the big brick fireplace that we usually practice in. In the studio, every piece of that kit was clear and distinct. In the rehearsal room, the ride cymbal can completely take over and, almost single-handedly force the entire band to raise volume to catch up. The drum kit, unamplified, can get in the way of everything. In the studio, in just as small a space, it was very easy to attain clarity and balance in the "room mix," even at club volume.

Tim

 

[fas42]

An addendum: unlike also probably most people in this game, I have very, very clear goalposts: I don't want or need my system to sound "better", or "nicer", or come up with a set of of measurement figures that fall below some boundary. I have very precise auditory measures of performance, the ones that I've mentioned here many times, and they've never "let me down" -- I have no trouble picking from the other end of the house whether the system's on song, or fallen away for some reason. It either sounds "real", or it's game over.

Unfortunately, Tim has a hangup with this expectation thing: if I'm standing next to a real piano, me pretending to myself that it's a fake doesn't really change its sound much, YMMV ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

No, it will annoy you to know end with its rattle, rumble and hiss. It's will sound blurry, smeared, harsh, indistinct. The best environment to listen to a drum kit in close proximity is a treated room, like the one I recorded in yesterday. A stark comparison to the wood-paneled room with the big brick fireplace that we usually practice in. In the studio, every piece of that kit was clear and distinct. In the rehearsal room, the ride cymbal can completely take over and, almost single-handedly force the entire band to raise volume to catch up. The drum kit, unamplified, can get in the way of everything. In the studio, in just as small a space, it was very easy to attain clarity and balance in the "room mix," even at club volume.

Tim

Yes, I agree with that. But, in both instances the "instrument" sounds real, the overpowering quality of that ride cymbal in the "wrong" environment is a tonal imbalance to the sound, not a case of the sound not registering as real. Obviously, as a musician with a bent towards recording you want the overall sound to mesh, you don't want a race of the volume dials -- my brother played lead guitar in a band for years, and it was a frequent gripe of his, "dealing" with the other members.

As a non-musician that type of imbalance doesn't fuss me to anywhere near the same degree, it's a sign of the "humanity" of the sound. What will fuss me is a lack of integrity to the sound, the feeling that everything is a pretend, that the piano is coming from a cheap Casio from Wal-Mart.

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

An addendum: unlike also probably most people in this game, I have very, very clear goalposts: I don't want or need my system to sound "better", or "nicer", or come up with a set of of measurement figures that fall below some boundary. I have very precise auditory measures of performance, the ones that I've mentioned here many times, and they've never "let me down" -- I have no trouble picking from the other end of the house whether the system's on song, or fallen away for some reason. It either sounds "real", or it's game over.

Unfortunately, Tim has a hangup with this expectation thing: if I'm standing next to a real piano, me pretending to myself that it's a fake doesn't really change its sound much, YMMV ...

Frank

I'm not hung up, frank. Like most people here, I know you're wrong, but that's not a hang up, it is just anobservation. The difference between me and the smarter members here is i'm still bothering to state the obvious.

Tim

 

[terryj]

As regards acoustics, refer to the analogy of a live drum kit in a "poor listening environment"

Frank

Well, they could make up their minds for themselves