The Next Room

Bill Hart · Jun 11, 2012

As anybody who has seen my postings knows (I'm hardly keeping it a secret), I plan to relocate to Austin as soon as our house in NY is sold. I will be doing a new room there, and wanted to solicit advice, tips, etc. from those of you who have done a dedicated room- I have done a few, my current room is not ideal acoustically, but it isn't bad, has some RealTraps and a diffuser, dedicated lines, subpanel, etc. but it is at the top of a very old wooden house, and has all sorts of odd angles in the eaves that mean I don't really have a long wall/short wall.
My short list will obviously include serious AC- I am thinking of an Equi=Tech wall panel, simply because my experience with line conditioners has never been great, sonically, and I'd like to eliminate concerns about AC noise and surge protection.
I will build to a degree, and probably bring somebody in for acoustics, at least basic stuff-
I want dead silent air conditioning;
I want a way to isolate the sound of the stupid air pump for my tone arm so that's gonna get sent to the outhouse or at least a space far, far away from the listening room;
I want a work area, with a real work bench to lay stuff out- not that i'm building circuits (I did have fun with Dynakits as a teen), but someplace that permits you to have record cleaning equipment, and all the associated paraphenelia -tools, parts, cable, testers, gauges, spare tubes, etc in a clean, well-lit area that is adjacent to the listening room;
I have alot of records- i am thinking of having a floor to ceiling set of shelves, ala a library, built, to house them along one wall, preferably in an alcove off the listening room itself.
But, any tips, thoughts, or considerations are welcomed. I don't even have a space in Texas yet, and may be somewhat constrained by what we ultimately wind up with. Many of the houses seem to have guest houses - I could use that, and relegate guests to a bedroom in the main house.
And, in Texas, everybody seems to have bars everywhere in the house. I don't drink anymore, so it's not important to me, but it does make me wonder.
Oh, and I'm saving the steer horns for the 60's caddy. No need to go native in the listening room.

arnies · Jun 11, 2012

Hi Whart,

I live in Austin - and have built a dedicated room about 3 years ago, with a lot of work on electrical power, room acoustics, etc. You can send me a private message if you wish to discuss what I did, etc. Also I am not sure that everybody has bars everywhere in the house.

treitz3 · Jun 11, 2012

Whart, your preferences seem to go from the listening room to the listening lair. My hat is off to you and I will be following this thread closely. For some, it ends with the room. With others, that's where it begins.

Great post, IMO.

Bill Hart · Jun 11, 2012

Arnies. Hope you like company. I'll PM you shortly. And thanks.

Bill Hart · Jun 11, 2012

treitz3 said:
Whart, your preferences seem to go from the listening room to the listening lair. My hat is off to you and I will be following this thread closely. For some, it ends with the room. With others, that's where it begins.

Great post, IMO.

Treitz3- thanks. Home is, by definition, where my records are. The other places are just a place to stay.

mullard88 · Jun 11, 2012

I am also contemplating a new listening room. I will definitely have dedicated power lines with voltage regulation. I will have a separate snacking area beside it, a powder room next to it and a storage room for equipment also next to the listening room. I would like the room to feel and look very relaxing. I intend to show the pictures of arthurs' relaxation pod to the project engineer and to the interior designer (if I engage the services of one). I would also probably consult a lighting specialist to create the proper lighting for that is dim enough for listening and also bright enough for rotating equipment. As for acoustic treatment, I would leave that last and would work on it as I listen based not on proper frequency response curve nor other technical sonic parameters but on my preference and on what sonic colors will allow me to listen long term.

Bill Hart · Jun 11, 2012

Mullard- lighting! See, you've already shown me that my 'short list' omitted a critical thing! Wouldn't it be lovely to be able to control the lighting from the listening chair, and not have noise problems associated with dimmers? The Crestron company is right over the hill from me, but I also don't want to go completely crazy with gadgets. As I remember, studios used to use a preferred form of dimmer that was like a transformer to avoid noise. Wonder if those can be remote controlled without having to buy 10,000 dollars worth of unnecessary software?
Snacks? Two places nobody eats: listening room and car. I'd kill 'em!
On design aesthetic, I'm good with that part.
And you are right, tuning and acoustic treatment are as much art as a science, but I do want to get the basics right, and finally get some good bass!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2012

i've done a room in a separate building, a barn, and it does allow for much more freedom of design. and depending on your property, keeping noise out can be a much lower priority issue.

i did do the HVAC right, and there are some basic tricks with that. you need 3 or more 90 degree turns in your ducting to reduce the noise from your blower. you also need enough capacity in your ducting to have low flow which reduces noise. i have my heat exchanger sitting on the opposite side of the barn from the listening room so there are four walls and 30 feet between it and the room. my blower unit is in my barn attic above the hallway outside my room, and it's mounted on a metal tray which has a rubber insulation between it and the subfloor to reduce the chance of any mechanical reasonance coming thru. then upstairs in my pool/rec room i have a couple of vents to allow the HVAC to be tuned. basically the HVAC tech needs to balance outflow and inflow. you may want a certain level of fan, but that may not be workable. there are a number of varibles so you need to be quite specific as to what you want.

so now i get absolutely zero noise from the HVAC except the slight click from my in room control panel when it clicks on and off. i can have 30+ guys in the room on a hot August night for a club meeting and it stays at whatever temp i want.

i have an 11 foot ceiling. and the ducting for the HVAC is in the drop ceiling down to about the 9' 8" level. the air is pushed out above the seating area on either side of the room and the return is at the floor level behind both sides of the speakers. so the air has a nice flow and can very quickly adjust to what i want. and i've used the open areas around the ducting for relief in the ceiling to reduce room nodes. also my drop ceiling is open and lined with fibreglass and works as a bass trap.

most of these things don't cost more than a casual installation but are next to impossible to make right later.

anyway; every thing on your list is like that. there is a few things to know and you save yourself lots of grief.

added notes; i forgot to mention that you want the air flow to come from either above or behind you, not into your face. keep that in mind. and if you have floor vents they will be a pain. ceiling vents are preferable which then allows complete freedom to set up your gear as you like and what sounds best.

JackD201 · Jun 11, 2012

I too can't stress quiet HVAC enough. I did something quite similar to Mike's except over here we don't need heating so I guess HVAC is just VAC.

The extra bends and, may I add, ducts about a third larger than standard as well as oversized diffusers help reduce the speed of airflow as well. Turbulence is a huge source of noise. To save on electricity I opted for two cooling units of 3 tons each. I use two to get to the the right temperature then shut of one of them. I can then run just one on the lowest fan speed to maintain that temperature. I also did a lot of work on lighting design and kept ballasts/transformers far away from the actual fixtures and away from audio electrical lines. Like Mike said, these are tough things to address later and have to be done right right from the get go.

I have a bar in my man cave but I chose not to have any fridges so I don't get any compressor noise. When we have parties, I just bring in a big cooler filled with the drinks, ice and salted water. Amazing how salted water can make drinks so much colder.

Bill Hart · Jun 12, 2012

Mike and Jack- you are hitting me right in the sweet spot, this is the kinda stuff I was looking for. And both of you have admirable rooms. I had seen Mike's over the years via the Gon, but didn't see yours, Jack, until I joined here. You have both gone the distance. I'm not sure I will go to quite the lengths both of you did, but the air conditioning is one of several peeves of mine, it's either too warm or too noisy right now, but the unit (a pretty substantial one of three for the house) only cools the floor with the listening room, which is the largest space on that floor. Yeah, the frig compressor thing kinda jumped out at me- you don't taste the salt, though?

JackD201 · Jun 12, 2012

I still have a sink at the bar. One quick rinse is all it takes

KeithR · Jun 12, 2012

I would look for the closest thing to a golden ratio as possible for the room dimensions as you are house shopping-- and I would have a 10' ceiling or so. Then life should be really easy on the treatment side of things.

I'd love to move back to Austin, myself!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 12, 2012

JackD201 said:
I still have a sink at the bar. One quick rinse is all it takes

my barn has a 3/4 bath and sink with long counter down the hall from my room. at some point i'd like to do some built in cabinets, ice maker and fridge. but i've not allocated funds for it just yet. i do have a cabinet top outside my room with a few bottles of Scotch for medicinal purposes only.

when my wife says 'go to your room' i'm ok with it.

JackD201 · Jun 12, 2012

Ha! I take my Scotch, Cognac and Armagnac for medicinal purposes only too! LOL!!!!!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 12, 2012

power grid is another thing that if not done right before hand, it's hard to fix later.

it's important to try and anticipate how many circuits you need over time. it's ideal to have one piece of electronic gear on each circuit. i have 11 dedicated lines; and my Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system has 10 circuits. so one is doubled (actually tripled)....but that one was for the 2 dedicated circuits for the rear amps i did for hirez multichannel. when i built the room i anticipated doing that; but after 18 months of having multi-channel i removed it. i spread 5 others across the front of my room for amplifiers and subwoofers, and then 3 dedicated circuits on the left side for sources, then one on the right side for RTR decks. i also have one in-floor in the middle of the room under my carpet just in case, that is also connected to the 10th circuit.

i used #10 gauge Romex for in wall wire. some prefer Cardas of JPS in wall; and this is one thing i might have done differently if i could do it over. Bruce Brown has the JPS and he loves it. his system does sound exceptionally good. how big a diiference does the in-wall wire make? i cannot say. there are many opinions about it. remember that duplex outlets are designed to accept #10 Gauge Romex, and Cardas and JPS might need to be soldered to the outlet to secure them.

my home has 400 amp service with it's own transformer at the street. then i take 70 amps from just past the meter in my garage in the main house (i have natural gas radiant floor heat in the main house and a natural gas generator plumbed into my home so the remaining 330 amps is plenty) and run a metal conduit 125 feet thru my garage, and underground out to the barn and to my Equi=tech panel. there is a double ground rod at the panel 6 feet into the ground. the 400 pound Equi=tech panel is mounted to an outside wall in the hallway outside my room. the Equi=tech does have a very slight hum which can be heard from about 3-4 feet away. from 6 feet away you cannot hear it at all. all the home runs from the dedicated circuits run to this panel.

the Equi=tech is UL approved; which is essential to meet code in most areas. you need a licensed commercial electrician to install it along with a few strong backs. the question would be whether to get a permit; and how each locality is about the Equi=tech in a residence. technically it is for a commercial installation. if you find an understanding commercial electrician who has done large Home Theatre installations you should have no problem. i'm sure there are many in an up-scale place like Austin.

the barn has it's own 100 amp service totally separate from the audio circuit with the Equi=tech; and my room has 12 'dirty' outlets spread around the room including 2 in the ceiling for a future projector or powered screen (not for me; just in case i were to sell the place). this service runs the lights, dirty outlets and HVAC for the barn.

i've tried a number of duplex outlets; by far the best i've found are the Furutech GTX-D (R) which replaced the Oyaide R-1's about a year ago.

also; if you can run a large conduit from one side of the room to the other to allow for future options of where you might want things. if you are pouring a concrete floor this is easily done ahead of time but not later.

elescher · Jun 12, 2012

http://www.atitec.com/support/iea/iea.html. This will provide nearly zero resistance for your grounding. Recommended for improving any/all systems. Cost is less than $2000.00 with installation.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 12, 2012

elescher said:
http://www.atitec.com/support/iea/iea.html. This will provide nearly zero resistance for your grounding. Recommended for improving any/all systems. Cost is less than $2000.00 with installation.

with the moisture content and soil in the earth where i live a normal ground rod is effective; but i agree that many locations require some better solution for effective grounding.

Bruce B · Jun 12, 2012

I had a few more obstacles than Mike. I built rooms within rooms in my basement. We had the forethought to have the ceiling raised to 13' before the house was completed because we knew we would lose ceiling heigth when the acoustial buildout was finished.
Because it was in my basement, I had to install HVAC "mufflers" in the main trunk off from the house. All the ductwork is lined with a dampening material as well.
The lights and 6 outlets use "house" current and the other 30? outlets are from my Equi=tech wall cabinet. I did have the electrical company run another line from the street and used custom 4ga run to the cabinet. Copper rods were placed in the ground about 50' as well.
Yes, the JPS cable is hard to work with, so what we did was crimp/solder gold spades with shrink tubing to the ends and just used the screws on the side of the duplex for connecting. We also had to use larger boxes with plenty of acoustical caulking to plug up the holes. I told the builders to think of these rooms as a submarine or aquarium. If water can leak through... so can sound. I used 27 cases of acoustical caulking to plug up all the holes. I also used about 24 cases of Green Glue. Not only did we use it between drywall sheets, it was also used between every single wood joint. All wood was engineered lumber and put together with screws... Do not use nails!
You will lose about 1/4th of the total volume of the room with bass trapping!

Bill Hart · Jun 12, 2012

Mike Lavigne said:
power grid is another thing that if not done right before hand, it's hard to fix later.

it's important to try and anticipate how many circuits you need over time. it's ideal to have one piece of electronic gear on each circuit. i have 11 dedicated lines; and my Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system has 10 circuits. so one is doubled (actually tripled)....but that one was for the 2 dedicated circuits for the rear amps i did for hirez multichannel. when i built the room i anticipated doing that; but after 18 months of having multi-channel i removed it. i spread 5 others across the front of my room for amplifiers and subwoofers, and then 3 dedicated circuits on the left side for sources, then one on the right side for RTR decks. i also have one in-floor in the middle of the room under my carpet just in case, that is also connected to the 10th circuit.

i used #10 gauge Romex for in wall wire. some prefer Cardas of JPS in wall; and this is one thing i might have done differently if i could do it over. Bruce Brown has the JPS and he loves it. his system does sound exceptionally good. how big a diiference does the in-wall wire make? i cannot say. there are many opinions about it. remember that duplex outlets are designed to accept #10 Gauge Romex, and Cardas and JPS might need to be soldered to the outlet to secure them.

my home has 400 amp service with it's own transformer at the street. then i take 70 amps from just past the meter in my garage in the main house (i have natural gas radiant floor heat in the main house and a natural gas generator plumbed into my home so the remaining 330 amps is plenty) and run a metal conduit 125 feet thru my garage, and underground out to the barn and to my Equi=tech panel. there is a double ground rod at the panel 6 feet into the ground. the 400 pound Equi=tech panel is mounted to an outside wall in the hallway outside my room. the Equi=tech does have a very slight hum which can be heard from about 3-4 feet away. from 6 feet away you cannot hear it at all. all the home runs from the dedicated circuits run to this panel.

the Equi=tech is UL approved; which is essential to meet code in most areas. you need a licensed commercial electrician to install it along with a few strong backs. the question would be whether to get a permit; and how each locality is about the Equi=tech in a residence. technically it is for a commercial installation. if you find an understanding commercial electrician who has done large Home Theatre installations you should have no problem. i'm sure there are many in an up-scale place like Austin.

the barn has it's own 100 amp service totally separate from the audio circuit with the Equi=tech; and my room has 12 'dirty' outlets spread around the room including 2 in the ceiling for a future projector or powered screen (not for me; just in case i were to sell the place). this service runs the lights, dirty outlets and HVAC for the barn.

i've tried a number of duplex outlets; by far the best i've found are the Furutech GTX-D (R) which replaced the Oyaide R-1's about a year ago.

also; if you can run a large conduit from one side of the room to the other to allow for future options of where you might want things. if you are pouring a concrete floor this is easily done ahead of time but not later.

Again, extremely helpful, Mike. I currently have 5 dedicated lines in my room off the separate sub panel for audio. I have experienced some grounding differential between equipment hooked up to them, but could not practically hook all equipment up to one outlet, even if I am not making major current draws. Perhaps the way the Equi=Tech works will eliminate that as an issue, since I have to have outlets spread throughout the room: some for the front end, in one area, others for the amps, which are located, and will remain located in proximity to the speakers, and still others for the woofer amps, also integral to the woofers themselves. I'm guessing I'll need 10 (20amp) outlets at a minimum, even if I am only using 8 in the present system (counting the arm pump, which is actually plugged into a 240 volt step down that is separate from the existing dedicated line set up). And yes, I'll have to take account of power needs to the room, beyond the audio equipment, for record cleaning, lighting and of course air conditioning, as well as the usual assortment of 'regular' AC outlets. I don't know if I can get 400 amps of service in Austin, i tried to get it here outside of NYC, and the power company guy came to my house and basically told me to get lost. (There is a way to get things done in NY, perhaps I didn't grease the right palm).
I also know there were issues about where the sub panel cut into the main conduit, I'll have to go look at how the present house is configured- I get what you are saying about taking the power before the household panel, just after the meter. I currently have a double ground rod, i know that was an issue also, in terms of code compliance, to make sure it was grounded to the main house ground as well.
Thanks for the tip on the Furutechs.
When my wife and I discussed this earlier today, I suggested that we move the household into a guest house, and just turn the main house into the audio salon. That went over pretty well.

Just kidding.
This is enormously helpful to me because you've lived through it and know where the 'catches' are- you are right that it is much harder to do after the fact, and that good planning goes a long way, in terms of cost, time efficiency and headaches.
Best,
bill hart

Bill Hart · Jun 12, 2012

elescher said:
http://www.atitec.com/support/iea/iea.html. This will provide nearly zero resistance for your grounding. Recommended for improving any/all systems. Cost is less than $2000.00 with installation.

Given the near drought conditions in Austin, this may be essential. Thank-you, elescher.

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