Today a special listening

morricab said:

Well there is a reason that the most expensive tickets to a concert are pretty much up close and centered. However, I enjoy sitting at various locations in a concert hall...even behind the orchestra can be fun and enlightening (I did this recently with Beethoven's 9th symphony in the new MAAG Tonhalle (Tonhalle Zürich is under rennovation). My point was more that as a reference live up close is the only thing that is really similar to what is on most recordings. If your liver reference is only mid-hall or amplified concerts then your reference will never match your recordings.

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The best places are surely centered, but for me and many others surely not 2m from a symphonic orchestra! Please do not look for the prices but for the order of sale at similar prices - a time consuming useless task. And IMHO the objective is not matching the recording, but our general experience of real performances. It is a statistical hobby, unless we want to listen just to a few LPs ... Your own interesting experiences and preferences are not particularly relevant, except for you or people who share your preference.

Any way my point is that people must illustrate their experiences with examples that are reproducible - for example IMHO if some one is really interested in my opinion about the DCS Vivaldi they must get the Savall "Routes de l´Esclavage" recording. Otherwise it is just words, loose words ...

BTW, most people have one recording of a solo violin, that they consider the "recording" of a violin. What do we learn from it? Mostly they have a different preference, all biases included.

microstrip said:

I wrote a post on this aspect, however interrupted to have a coffee, WBF logged me out , and when I posted it all was lost ...

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My process for posting on a forum:

1) Write a draft of the post in a text edit program (like, er, Text Edit) that allows manual saving of the document.

2) Manually save the document regularly during composition of the post (i.e. every sentence).

3) Read over what’s just been written.

4) Be brutally honest: Is this contributing to the signal of the thread, or just the noise? Am I articulating something of value, or simply repeating concepts already sufficiently covered for the umpteenth time?

5) No, c’mon. Does this really need to be posted? Or am I just wanting to be seen as someone whose anonymous opinion should be considered more valid/respected/quoted than another anonymous person’s, appealing to my vanity in a virtual but virtually psychologically insolvent manner?

6) Ask again: Do I really need to post this, or do I just need a hug instead?

7) Physically remove self from the keyboard.

8) Good! Thinking and behaving like an adult - well done.

9) Hug someone. See? Perhaps that post wasn’t necessary after all.

10) Wait. (Sometimes, depending on the content and context, this may be 5 minutes, or 5 days.)

11) Later: Add draft to all those other drafts written but not sent.

12) Go to bed, because sleep is an essential part of a healthy adult lifestyle.

Best,

853guy

morricab said:

There is something about the dynamic envelope of sound that is more important in defining realistic sound than just clarity. Of course, we all prefer to hear all the musicians clearly and in their space live as well as on a recording. I am remined of a recent marching band experience where we were standing only a few meters from the band...First it was LOUD...but not in an ear splitting way (more like an exciting way) and second it was CLEAR and PRESENT. Also, placement of all musicians was easily heard clearly defined(this is also easier with the visual element), also tonally. This presence is sorely lacking in most systems for reproduction. The clarity is there but the life is not. I don't care what Al says, the Ref 3as don't really have it...and Lord knows I tried to get it from them because they are better than nearly all small speakers I have heard in that regard (Odeon Orfeos are pretty good this way too).

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Where exactly, Brad, have I claimed that my monitors can reproduce the dynamics and presence of a marching band up close? I didn't. The best horns may be able to do that, but I would have to hear it myself before believing it.

But my speakers can reproduce the dynamics of a lot of other music quite well, and they sure as hell are more dynamic sounding than a lot of the multi-way regular cone floor standers that I have heard. And no, they are not more dynamic than all of them.

Here is the relevant passage from an earlier post. Please read carefully:

Al M. said:

Dynamics? If you mean the ability to play screamingly loud, at 110 - 120 dB, then no. if you mean the ability to project dynamic range, from subtle changes to large leaps in volume with impact, up to a level of 95-100 dB, monitor/sub combos can be excellent, and mine is as well. In fact, they can be better in that respect than many floorstanders which just don't have that jump factor. Only very high-quality floorstanders powered by not just powerful but, well, dynamic sounding amplification (not easy to achieve), or horns, are as good or better at dynamics.

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853guy said:

My process for posting on a forum:

1) Write a draft of the post in a text edit program (like, er, Text Edit) that allows manual saving of the document.

2) Manually save the document regularly during composition of the post (i.e. every sentence).

3) Read over what’s just been written.

4) Be brutally honest: Is this contributing to the signal of the thread, or just the noise? Am I articulating something of value, or simply repeating concepts already sufficiently covered for the umpteenth time?

5) No, c’mon. Does this really need to be posted? Or am I just wanting to be seen as someone whose anonymous opinion should be considered more valid/respected/quoted than another anonymous person’s, appealing to my vanity in a virtual but virtually psychologically insolvent manner?

6) Ask again: Do I really need to post this, or do I just need a hug instead?

7) Physically remove self from the keyboard.

8) Good! Thinking and behaving like an adult - well done.

9) Hug someone. See? Perhaps that post wasn’t necessary after all.

10) Wait. (Sometimes, depending on the content and context, this may be 5 minutes, or 5 days.)

11) Later: Add draft to all those other drafts written but not sent.

12) Go to bed, because sleep is an essential part of a healthy adult lifestyle.

Best,

853guy

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Good points, 853guy. While I may not be as rigorous as you are, I do pay attention to a lot of the points. Which also caused me to tone down the answer to Brad that I just posted (before I read your post), even though he would have deserved differently. The reason for that may be guessed, I will refrain from spelling it out.

Depending on the browser, you can go back several pages and recover your post - it has happened to me a number of times as well, and recovered that way with firefox

PeterA said:

Is there a difference between front firing subs and those that fire downward when it comes to placement, the time/phase relationship and proper integration?

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That's an excellent question. I believe there is a significant difference between downward firing subs and front firing when it comes to placement. This is the reason why I use downward firing in my very small room. The placement in a small room is more crucial than in a large room....and more limited as to one's options. With downward firing, the bass "spread" is much easier to control than with with forward firing. The time/phase integration seems to be about the same with both, IMO. You have to get this aspect right with both designs. I use REL's...because they allow me to connect the signal at the amp- and as such the time/phase relationship is more accurate, IMO.
Last night I moved one of my subs to a more symmetrical position in my room vs. my prior positioning. The time/phase relationship, that Morricab brought up, is a very important aspect of sub integration IMO. I'm hoping that this will be improved over my prior positioning. ( It should be, as the relationship to the main speakers is now symmetrical) ( Not that the positioning was bad before, but I thought the very very slight tonal anomaly I was hearing was caused by this)

BTW, to the guys who are trying to decide what is more important--- clarity or reality....without clarity, you don't have reality IMHO. Coming from a musician's perspective, when I listen to, or play, a great instrument, what makes that instrument great is its ability to "project" and to "portray" its mellifluous tone. This is paramount to my knowing ( along with the audience) that the instrument is "singing". I hope this makes sense to those who have never heard, or played, an excellent instrument. If our systems can come close to replicating that sound in our homes...that to me is pretty much 'TAS'. IMHO.

DaveyF said:

BTW, to the guys who are trying to decide what is more important--- clarity or reality....without clarity, you don't have reality IMHO. Coming from a musician's perspective, when I listen to, or play, a great instrument, what makes that instrument great is its ability to "project" and to "portray" its mellifluous tone. This is paramount to my knowing ( along with the audience) that the instrument is "singing". I hope this makes sense to those who have never heard, or played, an excellent instrument. If our systems can come close to replicating that sound in our homes...that to me is pretty much 'TAS'. IMHO.

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Agreed (except that not all instruments have a mellifluous tone).

Yet while you cannot have reality without clarity, you can have an illusion of clarity detached from reality -- clarity as an artifact, in other words.

Al M. said:

Agreed (except that not all instruments have a mellifluous tone).

Yet while you cannot have reality without clarity, you can have an illusion of clarity detached from reality -- clarity as an artifact, in other words.

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I'm not getting this at all....clarity as an artifact???

BTW, to my ears, all great instruments have a mellifluous tone, agreed that some of the lesser one's do not. I think most musicians try and steer away from those, LOL.

853guy said:

My process for posting on a forum:

1) Write a draft of the post in a text edit program (like, er, Text Edit) that allows manual saving of the document.

2) Manually save the document regularly during composition of the post (i.e. every sentence).

3) Read over what’s just been written.

4) Be brutally honest: Is this contributing to the signal of the thread, or just the noise? Am I articulating something of value, or simply repeating concepts already sufficiently covered for the umpteenth time?

5) No, c’mon. Does this really need to be posted? Or am I just wanting to be seen as someone whose anonymous opinion should be considered more valid/respected/quoted than another anonymous person’s, appealing to my vanity in a virtual but virtually psychologically insolvent manner?

6) Ask again: Do I really need to post this, or do I just need a hug instead?

7) Physically remove self from the keyboard.

8) Good! Thinking and behaving like an adult - well done.

9) Hug someone. See? Perhaps that post wasn’t necessary after all.

10) Wait. (Sometimes, depending on the content and context, this may be 5 minutes, or 5 days.)

11) Later: Add draft to all those other drafts written but not sent.

12) Go to bed, because sleep is an essential part of a healthy adult lifestyle.

Best,

853guy

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853guy,

I must respectfully object firmly to most of your points - they would remove most of the spontaneity and fun of an high-end audio forum.

IMHO respect for others and politeness are the mandatory points in this hobby and forums.

Would I post this message if I went through the 12 points?

microstrip said:

853guy,

I must respectfully object firmly to most of your points - they would remove most of the spontaneity and fun of an high-end audio forum.

IMHO respect for others and politeness are the mandatory points in this hobby and forums.

Would I post this message if I went through the 12 points?

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mostly I just always contemplate using the 'cancel' button prior to the 'post reply' button. then after my post I read it again and think about the delete button. is my post about the subject or the person? it is relevant? pegging any internal meters? Will the post make my day a little more positive, or make my day more troubled? that about covers it. just common sense.

I am many times relieved that my late night 'brainless' posts has not yet been answered so I can still stealthily delete it the next morning. always lifts a dark cloud.

DaveyF said:

I'm not getting this at all....clarity as an artifact???

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If you re-read my previous posts you should gain some clarity about that

Al M. said:

The question is, what is clarity? Is it hearing everything that can be heard under certain artificial circumstances, e.g., the removal of some frequency bands such as low bass, or is it hearing everything that should be heard once everything is reproduced in full?

I gave an example:



Similar holds also for artificially tilted balances towards the treble in some systems. The sound may wow us with all this detail and 'clarity', but in reality the 'clarity' is an artifact of a tonal balance that is not natural. So is this genuine resolution then? I think not. Genuine resolution is something different.

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Hi Al, I want to hear what is on the recording within the limitations of my system and room. I have limited low frequency extension with the speakers I have chosen, so for me clarity, and my goal, is to hear everything within those limitations. Adding the two JL Audio subs and later, your one REL sub, decreased clarity as I heard it, so in those cases, my preference is for not using the subs.

I agree with Ack who wrote this:

ack said:

The bottom line from my perspective is that a sub should simply extend the frequency range, not interfere.

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For me the bottom line is that once sufficient time and energy have been spent trying to integrate a sub woofer to a system, if it sounds better with subs, keep them. If it does not sound better with subs, remove them. "Better" is personal, and it is what sounds better to me by my criteria, and not what sounds better to anyone else.

microstrip said:

853guy,

I must respectfully object firmly to most of your points - they would remove most of the spontaneity and fun of an high-end audio forum.

IMHO respect for others and politeness are the mandatory points in this hobby and forums.

Would I post this message if I went through the 12 points?

Click to expand...

Hi Micro,

The above is just my process, as I say in the first line. And although written with my tongue in my cheek, it's nevertheless not intended to be a recommendation for others to follow or adopt.

I've been guilty many times before of writing with my fingers (or my ego), rather than my brain. Having been part of hi-fi forums for over a decade (although only WBF now), I've discovered my opinion is just that, and doesn't need to be shared half as often as I think it does. And even when I think it does, could still probably be shared less than that.

Of course, we're all here for different reasons, and motivations will differ, as will post count.

Mine is to do more with less. Hopefully I'm getting better at that.

My best to you,

853guy

853guy said:

My process for posting on a forum:

1) Write a draft of the post in a text edit program (like, er, Text Edit) that allows manual saving of the document.

2) Manually save the document regularly during composition of the post (i.e. every sentence).

3) Read over what’s just been written.

4) Be brutally honest: Is this contributing to the signal of the thread, or just the noise? Am I articulating something of value, or simply repeating concepts already sufficiently covered for the umpteenth time?

5) No, c’mon. Does this really need to be posted? Or am I just wanting to be seen as someone whose anonymous opinion should be considered more valid/respected/quoted than another anonymous person’s, appealing to my vanity in a virtual but virtually psychologically insolvent manner?

6) Ask again: Do I really need to post this, or do I just need a hug instead?

7) Physically remove self from the keyboard.

8) Good! Thinking and behaving like an adult - well done.

9) Hug someone. See? Perhaps that post wasn’t necessary after all.

10) Wait. (Sometimes, depending on the content and context, this may be 5 minutes, or 5 days.)

11) Later: Add draft to all those other drafts written but not sent.

12) Go to bed, because sleep is an essential part of a healthy adult lifestyle.

Best,

853guy

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853guy, you are more noble than I, and I commend you for adhering to that process.

I don't have the time to do so, and if I did, numbers 5) and 6) would preclude me from posting anything. I have to wonder what would happen to audio forums if everyone followed your process. Posts and threads might be more coherent and thoughtful, but there would surely be fewer, and perhaps discussions would not go off into interesting tangents which are often begun by sloppy or less than well considered posts. I think most of us do the best we can given our various limitations. A hug is good every once in a while. So is sleep.

Al M. said:

Agreed (except that not all instruments have a mellifluous tone).

Yet while you cannot have reality without clarity, you can have an illusion of clarity detached from reality -- clarity as an artifact, in other words.

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You can easily have reality without clarity...I even gave Peter some examples. I could also play a trumpet under a blanket and it will sound real but not very clear. You can also have clarity without dynamics and presence and then it will lack reality...any number of high speakers will deliver this.

PeterA said:

I agree with Ack who wrote this:



For me the bottom line is that once sufficient time and energy have been spent trying to integrate a sub woofer to a system, if it sounds better with subs, keep them. If it does not sound better with subs, remove them.

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My point was that I would go further than simply removing the subs: fix the rest of the system and room in order to be able to keep them. Of course, that's easier said than done. BTW, do you know why Magico does not recommend pairing subs with mini monitors?

Now going back to what a microphone picks up and that a lot of recordings are close-mic'd, listen to the Janaki Debut again, and notice that how in one of the tracks the violinist accidentally strikes the microphone - funny, but it drives the point home. I noticed it on the CD the other day, a little frightening.

I think 6 and 7 should be adhered to by digital people challenging analog in threads.

PeterA said:

Hi Al, I want to hear what is on the recording within the limitations of my system and room. I have limited low frequency extension with the speakers I have chosen, so for me clarity, and my goal, is to hear everything within those limitations. Adding the two JL Audio subs and later, your one REL sub, decreased clarity as I heard it, so in those cases, my preference is for not using the subs.

I agree with Ack who wrote this:



For me the bottom line is that once sufficient time and energy have been spent trying to integrate a sub woofer to a system, if it sounds better with subs, keep them. If it does not sound better with subs, remove them. "Better" is personal, and it is what sounds better to me by my criteria, and not what sounds better to anyone else.

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We all adopt, ultimately, systems with compromises we can live with in order to get properties that we can't live without. For the longest time I thought I could live without realistic dynamics because low level resolution and transparency and truth of timbre were more important to me...so I was a planar guy. However, I never forgot certain live experiences and early horn exposure (Klipsch La Scalas) that continued to remind me of the compromise I had struck. It wasn't until I started hearing a few horns capable of getting the things the planars did well enough not to disturb and nailing the dynamics that I seriously considered the switch. A sub can be well integrated but not using the normal positioning recommended (corners far from the main speakers, for example).

Al M. said:

Agreed (except that not all instruments have a mellifluous tone).

Yet while you cannot have reality without clarity, you can have an illusion of clarity detached from reality -- clarity as an artifact, in other words.

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Al, you are a thinker. Some shy from concept and limit themselves to more concrete things and I love the way contributors here throw themselves into synthesis and higher order thinking.

I get how you separate the notion of clarity and reality... not all reality is clear, not even mine I fear.

So while it is quite hard to differentiate between notions like real, natural, clear, musical, transparent, coherent etc it is valuable that we try and they all are certainly potentially an asset but the appearance of any one doesn’t necessarily guarantee the presence of any other in outcome. Though certainly when they are all in ways mutually present that is when we actually get to some form of absolute rightness. These qualities like clarity and realness are holistic assessments and while on the surface it might seem logical one might buy us the other they can indeed be wholly separate values.

We might not necessarily each know how to define what they are exactly let alone make sense how they can actually be exclusive within themselves but just the fact that they present in a way to ourselves makes them valid in our perceptual reality.

I think that other ways of communicating experience like using specific music references such as strongly championed by microstrip are also valid but also because they are more specific contexts of comparison they are also only partial and involve experience and yes, whatever words we put towards any of these perceptions, words are still just words and so wholly insufficient to express anything as compete, layered and complex as human perception. Simply there are just no bulletproof ways to universally communicate experience.

One of the great takeaways from this pursuit is in us being challenged into learning how to better communicate the individual revelations of our transcendent and unspeakable musical moments. Music is not words and yet we all throw ourselves into synthesising these moments through ideas and concepts and then to sharing them, but for all these words we more easily extract clarity and meaning through the purity of musical expression simply by just sitting quietly in the reverie of sound and the music... this is a personal universe and that music is the bridge between our separate universes.