Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

You are right -- thank you.

updated amplifier list:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)
Mastersound PF100 (Class A, 845, 117w parallel SET)*
VAC 450iq (Class A to 300w)
Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)
Berning Quadrature-Z (200w)
VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)
KR Audio Kronzilla DX Mk. II (SET, T1610, 100w)*

Why don't we hear/read more about that BAT Rex II?

* With 89dB sensitivity speakers, and as as a believer in "headroom" and "excess" power, I am wary of dropping below 150w.

bonzo75 · Nov 25, 2017

Same here, the KT 88 120 and 150 valves are for power. EL34, as well as various other SET valves hold more musicality.

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

microstrip said:
You are using an amplifier full range with a single pair of tubes, the extra power and drive of the KT150 is welcome. However Ron will be using it only in mid-range / treble and with a lot of tubes in parallel - perhaps this is enough to change perspectives.

I have owned amplifiers with EL34 output tubes - when used with Quad Electrostatics this tube can have an absolute exceptional midrange. The conrad johnson's operated with EL34 also sound delicious - after he tried them operated with this tube a good friend of mine could not return to 6550 or KT120's.

Thank you, Francisco and bonzo. Exactly -- I was speculating about another path to a midrange richer and more transparent than the midrange of my 6550C MB-750s.

GMKF · Nov 25, 2017

I would go with the Jadis JA200 Mk. II and buy the VTL MB-185 Series III later on.

Or buy the Jadis JA200 Mk. II and "modify" your VTL MB-750s (Tube rolling/capacitor and resistor changes+Powersupply upgrades).

Al M. · Nov 25, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Same here, the KT 88 120 and 150 valves are for power. EL34, as well as various other SET valves hold more musicality.

The KT150 valves in Madfloyd's CAT JL7 amps provide plenty power and musicality. Just stellar amps. I am soon going to audition in my system Octave MRE 130 monoblocks, also with KT150 tubes (130 W/ch).

Al M. · Nov 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
* With 89dB sensitivity speakers, and as as a believer in "headroom" and "excess" power, I am wary of dropping below 150w.

Ron, agreed. I would consider 150 W/ch also the absolute minimum for your large speakers.

christoph · Nov 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
You are right -- thank you.

updated amplifier list:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)
Mastersound PF100 (Class A, 845, 117w parallel SET)*
VAC 450iq (Class A to 300w)
Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)
Berning Quadrature-Z (200w)
VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)
KR Audio Kronzilla DX Mk. II (SET, T1610, 100w)*

Why don't we hear/read more about that BAT Rex II?

* With 89dB sensitivity speakers, and as as a believer in "headroom" and "excess" power, I am wary of dropping below 150w.

I guarantee you, the Kronzilla DX 100 will have plenty of headroom for your dipole "satellites" that only play from 200 Hz upwards.
And in addition, the columns propagate the sound in a cylinder wave form that is louder over distance than a regular multi way speaker.

christoph · Nov 25, 2017

Al M. said:
Ron, agreed. I would consider 150 W/ch also the absolute minimum for your large speakers.

Have you ever heard a Dipole system with Kronzillas?

I have because I do own such systems and my 50 watt Kronzilla plays full range in a MUCH bigger room than Ron's

So go figure what double the power on limited bandwidth in a much smaller room would do

KeithR · Nov 25, 2017

After our recent discussion, I would demo Absolare P/P 845 and ARC Ref 250SE and may the best amp win. In fact, I'd borrow the ARCs first as they have wattage meters and can guide your decision. That or borrow a McIntosh amp for awhile. See what your actual use is in reality.

I would only mod your existing VTLs if they are going to be deemed future classics - but unfortunately that would be difficult for me to say, unlike old McIntosh tube amps. It will cost you more money and reduce resale at the same time. If you want vintage amps, find some old Macs

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

Thank you christoph and Al. But I can't audition everything, and I have to try to draw a logical line somewhere -- and that is at the admittedly somewhat arbitrary 150 watt line.

So the revised list of contenders is:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)

VAC 450iq (Class A to 300w)

Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)

Berning Quadrature-Z (200w)

VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)

(The most notable omission is the Atma-Sphere MA-2 Mk. 3.3, for which I have enormous respect, and here I simply remain concerned about missing the warmth (or coloration, to Ralph and to many others) I am accustomed to from transformer-coupled tube amplifiers.)

Oh, and, yes, somehow I have to hear the ARC 250SE!

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

KeithR said:
After our recent discussion, I would demo Absolare P/P 845 and ARC Ref 250SE and may the best amp win. In fact, I'd borrow the ARCs first as they have wattage meters and can guide your decision. That or borrow a McIntosh amp for awhile. See what your actual use is in reality.

I would only mod your existing VTLs if they are going to be deemed future classics - but unfortunately that would be difficult for me to say, unlike old McIntosh tube amps. It will cost you more money and reduce resale at the same time. If you want vintage amps, find some old Macs

As much as I like Kerem's Absolare amplifiers I think 85 watts is too low in power.

I would not consider any unapproved mods on my VTLs. I wrote to Bea today to see what upgrades VTL offers on the MB-750s these days.

I agree that I have get to the bottom of this new ARC amplifier sound.

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

the revised list of contenders is:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)

VAC 450iq (Class A to 300w, KT-88)

Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)

Berning Quadrature-Z (200w)

VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)

Audio Research 250SE (Class AB, KT-150, 250w)

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

GMKF said:
I would go with the Jadis JA200 Mk. II and buy the VTL MB-185 Series III later on.

Or buy the Jadis JA200 Mk. II and "modify" your VTL MB-750s (Tube rolling/capacitor and resistor changes+Powersupply upgrades).

Why would you buy the Jadis first? Why not the VAC or the Wavac first?

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

I was about to eliminate the Wavac 833 on the basis that its +9dB bass boost from 80Hz to 160Hz is just too absurd, and reflects engineering far too sloppy, to get involved with -- but then I remembered that the Pendragon ribbon panel exhibits very little load below 200 Hz.

sbo6 · Nov 26, 2017

Just curious Ron, why no SS amps as a choice?

Ron Resnick · Nov 26, 2017

Maybe these Audio Music 833S Wavac copies are actually good? (I am suspicious because the marketing literature from Audio Music looks copied and pasted from the Wavac marketing literature.)

Michael Fremer, who reviewed the Wavac SH-833 for Stereophile, ran into the AM833S at a show:

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/living-large-osborn-grand-monument-reference-speakers

Ron Resnick · Nov 26, 2017

sbo6 said:
Just curious Ron, why no SS amps as a choice?

No like-y solid-statey (for my speakers).

Actually on Magico M3 I preferred Vitus over Kondo Kagura (which I found a little too soft and a little too fuzzy).

DaveyF · Nov 26, 2017

microstrip said:
You are using an amplifier full range with a single pair of tubes, the extra power and drive of the KT150 is welcome. However Ron will be using it only in mid-range / treble and with a lot of tubes in parallel - perhaps this is enough to change perspectives.

I have owned amplifiers with EL34 output tubes - when used with Quad Electrostatics this tube can have an absolute exceptional midrange. The conrad johnson's operated with EL34 also sound delicious - after he tried them operated with this tube a good friend of mine could not return to 6550 or KT120's.

That’s not quite correct. I actually only use the Jadis to drive the GH’s, The REL subwoofers are self powered.
Btw, have you actually heard any of the new amps with the KT150’s, or are you just assuming that the EL34’s sound better in the mids?

Putting EL34’s into any of the new Jadis Mk2’s is, imho, a backwards step and not what I would recommend.
If one wants an EL34 based amp, then that is what one should buy from the get go. No reason to buy any of the newer amps that utilize the KT150’s.

DaveyF · Nov 26, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
No like-y solid-statey.

Actually on Magico M3 I preferred Vitus over Kondo Kagura (which I found a little too soft and a little too fuzzy).

Ron, amps tend to work differently with different speakers. Because one particular speaker works best with tubes doesn’t mean another will work well with tubes. SS is the correct solution for many speakers out there....maybe even for your new ones.
Unless you try, you would not necessarily know what drives the speakers better. While I agree with you that tube amps do bring something that ss does not, that doesn’t eliminate ss for me...it depends on the synergy with the particular speaker I am using at the time. Synergy...or as another experienced poster put it on another forum....the marriage, is what it’s all about.
SS or tubes...not that important...it’s the marriage.

GMKF · Nov 26, 2017

Price. I find the Jadis JA200 Mk. II are better value for money than the VAC's. And they leave room for options, like buying a second pair of amps.
And you were also commenting on the Wavacs price, thats why I left them out.
And I have never heard the Berning Quadrature-Z or seen measurments. Thats why I left them out.

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