Vibration isolation question

Bill Stevenson said:

In keeping with the theme of this forum: What's the best vibration isolation solution? Where vibration isolation is used, how is the effect measured scientifically? What is the subjective effect?

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i use two of these products;

http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html

i do consider them the best cost-no-object isolation products.

here is a tutorial on the science.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials.html

areas of need for isolation control are;

turntables

source electronics

amplifiers

speakers

the subjective effect of isolation varies with the application. particularly with passive isolation it's not one-size-fits-all. there is a voicing and tuning that is necessary to find the right sort of passive isolation for any specific piece of gear.

in essence the objective of isolation is to reduce feedback from the system and to eliminate ground noise. this allows less distortion in the sound. without isolation the gear will 'sing' along with the music and reduce detail and focus.

most isolation products are passive, since active isolation is so expensive it's not real-world for most audio systems.

there are many threads about active and passive isolation products here on WBF which have lots of great information.

I find isolation control to be an integral part of a system. I use SRA products and have been very satisfied and impressed with the impact they have had on the sound. Better separation and blacker backgrounds. I was concerned I would be unable to hear a difference, but it was NOT a subtle improvement. The folks at SRA recommend isolating power supplies first, then amplifiers if you go the individual source route. I have a Scuttle equipment rack and one Ohio Class base that I have under my Lamm tube phono. Expensive, but easily worth it, I'll have them for the next 20 years at least.

Bill Stevenson said:

Where vibration isolation is used, how is the effect measured scientifically? What is the subjective effect?

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I'll skip the subjective part of your question and address only the science. First, the only devices I'm aware of that benefit from isolation are turntables and, less often, loudspeakers. The scientific way to assess the benefit of isolation is to measure the response and ringing of your system using room measuring software such as Room EQ Wizard. This way you include every component in the chain, from the preamp through to the loudspeakers and even the room. If you want to know whether speaker wire elevators really have an affect, you'll put the measuring microphone where you listen and run a sweep. Then move the wires to rest on the floor and run another sweep. It is critical that the measuring microphone not move between tests, and also that you are standing well away from the microphone. The most revealing graph type is a waterfall, which shows decay time versus frequency. If you see some frequencies sustaining longer without the isolation device in place, there's your answer. And if you see no difference at all, that's an answer too.

Another scientific method that doesn't require measuring is a blind test. But it really has to be blind. You can't do this yourself, you need someone else to move the wires (or whatever) while you listen without knowing. And you need to run the test at least ten times in a row to avoid guessing correctly by chance. While literally blindfolded you listen and tell your friend whether you think the isolation device is in place or not, and your friend notes both your guess and the truth. After ten trials you can remove the blindfold and you'll have your answer. If you were correct all ten times, you'll also know what the subjective affect was.

--Ethan

I happen to have a wood floor in an apartment building, so vibration travels. I also have Wilson X1s and a Velodyne DD18, and some tubed equipment. In general, each time I have isolated a component, I have found benefits. Each component in my entire system (14 individual PSUs, speakers, components) sits within its own 'isolation sandwich' comprised of isolation underneath (HRS, Stillpoints, Auralex) and some element of mass/damping on top (HRS, Stilpoints, Entreq, Artesania).

HOWEVER, each isolation sandwich is different. I found my power component and speakers gets on well with Ultra 5s underneath. I found my source equipment sound better to me with HRS M3X and HRS dampers. Mass damping is another funny one...put a little on and pretty much nothing happens...hit a critical weight and you can hear it...in some cases 20kg on top of a damping plate. Anything else, and I could not tell the difference.

In a nutshell, it depends on how thorough/crazy you want to be...but if you start with HRS, Stillpoints or Artesania, you have an interesting road ahead of you. Most of the people to whom I have recommended Ultra 5s have not stopped at just their speakers or one piece of equipment. There are plenty of others here as well.

In terms of benefit, for my system, i found that there was: much less shimmer in the treble/mids which allowed more detail to come thru and also more solidly deliver a single note, and also more solidly handle multiple notes at once. Often with orchestral massed strings, you can get a compressed/mushed sensation to all those strings while other instruments are also playing. With greater isolation, I found my system and my speakers were better able to deliver the orchestra with the detail, ease and less 'mechanical distortion' feeling from the musical signal. That's how it felt.

I have done most of my own listening, but i have also done blind tests or even tests where no one knew what had happened. And I have always come back to the solutions I have...but it took me 18 months to get each component done right, one by one. And it was not always a linear path...mainly, yes, but not always. But now that its done...I have no desire to look further, and i am DONE.

In fact, at this stage, i have elected not to goof around further with that bit because it knocks the tonal balance off, and i have to work to re-set it. A pain. So I have left that and now am simply focusing on finalizing the isolation and mass damping of the speakers which are taking more time. That's my own personal experience.

Hope that helps. Good luck and enjoy.

Bill Stevenson said:

I have your book Ethan. Thanks. From your answer I gather that my new tube preamp and amp, and my Sony HAP-Z1ES will not sing at me or jitter or flutter my bottom if I just put them on a standard rack at some rational price?

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All components benefit from isolation/vibration control. I highly recommend stillpoints Ultra's under all equipment power supplies and speakers, turntables. Digital, not so much. Active isolation as Mike L pointed out above, even better...Turntable priority #1 for that more expensive treatment.

Bill Stevenson said:

From your answer I gather that my new tube preamp and amp, and my Sony HAP-Z1ES will not sing at me or jitter or flutter my bottom if I just put them on a standard rack at some rational price?

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I should have included tube gear as possibly benefiting from isolation. In most cases floating tube gear on an iso pad will have no affect. Even if the tubes are microphonic, most vibration travels through the air. Now, if you put a tube amp on top of a subwoofer, and the subwoofer's cabinet is inadequate and vibrates, maybe some of that vibration could modulate the audio. But you'd have to play the music very loudly. Again, this is trivial to test. In lieu of buying an iso pad on spec, just have a friend lift your preamp or amp half an inch while you listen with your eyes closed. If you can't hear when the audio device is being lifted, there's your answer. I make this same suggestion to people who ask if their speakers will benefit from isolation. I can't stress enough that vibration travels mainly through the air, so floating audio gear on a pad is mostly futile. I also can't emphasis enough the need to listen blind.

P.S. My cat is a Maine Coon named Ben, his brother from birth was Jerry who we lost a couple of years ago after a 10 year battle with diabetes.

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I used to have a Maine Coon named Rocky. He was a great cat. Heck, they're all great if you raise them right and treat them well. I now have two little ladies that get a huge amount of attention every day, all day long.

--Ethan

Ethan Winer said:

I'll skip the subjective part of your question and address only the science. First, the only devices I'm aware of that benefit from isolation are turntables and, less often, loudspeakers.
--Ethan

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With all due respect, the performance benefits of vibration attenuation under speakers, CDP's, preamps, and amplifiers is so obvious (and totally audible) assuming your system is reasonably transparent. To claim otherwise is silly.

As Mike stated, you may need to experiment (listening tests) with different devices to find the correct product(s).

Bill,
When I was shopping for my scuttle, I was pushed toward the Mk2 as much better bang/buck. I totally understand about the blind faith aspect of an expensive rack. I was very concerned as well. The difference was very positive and readily apparent, though I came from a crap rack to begin with. I would best characterize the differences with a description...Let's say with your volume at 9 0'clock No Quarter on Vinyl has very present tape hiss and some record noise, but sounds great and enjoyable. Now with scuttle isolation the noise is no longer present at 9'oclock(10), more detail is present and the bass is more articulated and more physically tactile(if that's english) After carrying that 300# beast up 2 flights of stairs I was certainly hoping to hear some improvement, but it exceeded my expectations. Obviously the scuttle was not a true A/B, but I compared the Ohio under the phonopre and out of the system 5+ times and always preferred it in.

Component Isolation

Our philosophy is to isolate every component in the system, starting with speakers, then power related (distribution, conditioning, etc), then components with transformers(amps, etc), then sources. Try locating isolation under chassis areas with transports or other internals that generate a lot of vibration. Experimenting is key to achieving best performance.

John

thedudeabides said:

With all due respect, the performance benefits of vibration attenuation under speakers, CDP's, preamps, and amplifiers is so obvious (and totally audible) assuming your system is reasonably transparent. To claim otherwise is silly.

As Mike stated, you may need to experiment (listening tests) with different devices to find the correct product(s).

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Is that in order of greatest benefit from isolation in your experience?

allvinyl said:

Our philosophy is to isolate every component in the system, starting with speakers, then power related (distribution, conditioning, etc), then components with transformers(amps, etc), then sources. Try locating isolation under chassis areas with transports or other internals that generate a lot of vibration. Experimenting is key to achieving best performance.

John

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Interestingly, that was the path I took but by my own findings. I started speakers after discovering how much my Sub benefited...I think fooled around with a few extra Ultra 5s...and as advised by dealer tried them under Power conditioner...and it was a consistent run from there all the way to the final place...transport...which to be honest is so well built, it benefited least from Ultra 5s.

Power was a big improvement as well as speakers. Thanks for making such great equipment!!!

Component Isolation

Yes, the order was developed over time as we better understood where the greatest benefits were consistent in every system. With system to system variability being the biggest variable it took a while to settle on this hierarchy. Usually, when you isolate the last component the system as a whole takes a performance leap forward.

John

DonH50 said:

Is that in order of greatest benefit from isolation in your experience?

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allvinyl said:

Yes, the order was developed over time as we better understood where the greatest benefits were consistent in every system. With system to system variability being the biggest variable it took a while to settle on this hierarchy. Usually, when you isolate the last component the system as a whole takes a performance leap forward.

John

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I agree with that last statement...though I am not entirely convinced I have actually isolated the last component as well as possible. So perhaps I should not be so quick to concur!

Technically speaking when I isolated the 'last component' (my Transport)...I had 16 individual 'isolation sandwiches' for each and every box and component. Even the Transparent network boxes have a slight pad underneath and an Entreq Vibb Eater on top.

That said, I have just added a few more Vibb Eaters on top of the big Wilsons...and yet again, there is greater clarity, transparency, depth of signal and density of note coming thru...obviously it would not be there if the REST of the system were not delivering it...but I think I may not be quite 100% there at the 'last component' stage!!!

LL21 said:

I agree with that last statement...though I am not entirely convinced I have actually isolated the last component as well as possible. So perhaps I should not be so quick to concur!

Technically speaking when I isolated the 'last component' (my Transport)...I had 16 individual 'isolation sandwiches' for each and every box and component. Even the Transparent network boxes have a slight pad underneath and an Entreq Vibb Eater on top.

That said, I have just added a few more Vibb Eaters on top of the big Wilsons...and yet again, there is greater clarity, transparency, depth of signal and density of note coming thru...obviously it would not be there if the REST of the system were not delivering it...but I think I may not be quite 100% there at the 'last component' stage!!!

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If you're not 100% there, you're to be congratulated for getting well down the road in addressing the key critical areas of audio infrastructure: room acoustics, clean power & signal delivery, and vibration control. I think we're finally beginning to leave the era where infrastructure plays second fiddle to components. Addressing any one of these three areas makes a profound sonic difference; together they let you really hear what you've been paying for. I suspect most untreated systems are capable of sounding much better than their owners have heard.

Ethan Winer said:

just have a friend lift your preamp or amp half an inch while you listen with your eyes closed. If you can't hear when the audio device is being lifted, there's your answer. I make this same suggestion to people who ask if their speakers will benefit from isolation. I can't stress enough that vibration travels mainly through the air, so floating audio gear on a pad is mostly futile. I also can't emphasis enough the need to listen blind.

--Ethan

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Interesting to see Ethan advocating a subjective approach.

Anything capable of microphonics will benefit from damping. Transistors and ICs are susceptible to microphonics though not as much as tubes. Thus both transistor and tube products will benefit. Ethan is correct in that most vibration is airborne; an anti-vibration platform is effective at draining off such vibration if used correctly. CDPs also benefit, as the digital pulse stream is an analog signal that is interpreted as a digital signal- thus the better the signal, the less errors and data loss during playback.

Bob Worzalla of Sound Anchors showed many years ago that speakers also benefit from platforms or stands. He did this by aiming a lazer at the cabinet of the speaker itself and observing how it changed when on a proper stand. His tests confirmed the listening experience as well. Such stands (and tip-toe-style point systems or bearings) are usually used to stabilize the speaker rather than isolate it from the floor.

tima said:

If you're not 100% there, you're to be congratulated for getting well down the road in addressing the key critical areas of audio infrastructure: room acoustics, clean power & signal delivery, and vibration control. I think we're finally beginning to leave the era where infrastructure plays second fiddle to components. Addressing any one of these three areas makes a profound sonic difference; together they let you really hear what you've been paying for. I suspect most untreated systems are capable of sounding much better than their owners have heard.

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thanks... And yes, I have to admit, where I started 18 months ago and where I am now is a remarkable difference. I would not even THINK about taking the 'old system'. And none of the equipment has changed...only thorough mechanical isolation, some solid shielding around power cables, good grounding on the system itself. And basic room treatment.