New generaton of buyers ....nothing but the price

WLVCA · Oct 15, 2014

Pricing transparency.....great if you are a consumer...and a bitch if you own or manage a business.

Been there and done that.

I owned a wholesale distribution business in an unrelated industry and lived through the same thing.

Two things happened - inexpensive products produced offshore flooded the market and pricing collpased due to Ebay, Amazon and other internet resellers (and buyers) searching for the bottom of the market.

Actually there was a third factor - the near collapse of the world economy in 2007 and 2008.

Was I happy when that happened? Certainly not. Did I blame the buyers of the product? Well, it ticked me off, but we do live in a capitalistic economic system.

Adapt or die. In my case, I sold the business and let someone else worry about it.

The way I looked at it was that I made a very good living in that industry for 35 years. Can't complain about that. Nothing lasts forever.

taters · Oct 24, 2014

Elliot G. said:
If I wasn't sure before I am totally sure now that you Sir are just an idiot!

In your book someone that tells the truth is an Idiot. Enough said.

caesar · Oct 24, 2014

Elliot, interesting thread... let's look at things a bit more holistically from an economic perspective..

There are fairly low entry costs into the high end audio industry. Any guy can assemble the stuff in his garage. capital requirements are fairly low. just build the more complex parts of the gear in someone else’s shop. if you cook up a recipe that others like, you can get “large”. And if you get large, you can open your own machine/ furniture / metal shop. if you so, you can build your own cabinets and drivers, and use it as point of quality/differentiation…

These low entry barriers have caused a proliferation of gear today to suit every taste: from highly musical stuff that conveys human emotions to highly resolving stuff that succeeds at mechanical excellence and detail resolution. There are so many turntables, dacs, speakers, amps, cables, and combinations of the above that it makes your head spin. And all these excessive choices no doubt drives away customers due to sheer confusion because there is no one to trust to help separate the wheat from the chaff. So the primary marketing strategy of successful audio firms is to get a reviewer to like your stuff. If they do, they can mention it every time they write about it...

It’s a shame, but most reviewers are like smegma (there are a few good guys, but they are rare). Most help protect the incumbents and blockbuster brands; most reviewers just follow the heard and most are too gutless to voice independent opinions.

who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

Also, the reviewers take on authority mentality. they see the audiophile as some dumb f#%! that they need to give specific instructions to : "this is the best", "I would by this speaker/ dac/ amp”... This is not helpful to consumers and is actually very insulting. despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? the consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their incentive.

You touch on the bargaining power of consumers, but your comments are incomplete. Some consumers have a taste preference that they follow for years (remember the hunt for the Absolute Sound?). Sure, customers can shop around and play different dealers off against each other in order to drive price down or demand a high quality of service. But if you know what you like, you can’t really substitute. If a customer loves the Vivid Giya, the Wilson or Magico will not do.. If customer thinks ARC is inferior to CAT, he will find a way to get a CAT into your system despite the low number of dealers and paying a premium. So your purchase outlet choices as a consumer are quite limited in this small industry.

Yet, other customers frequently swap gear when they get used to one sound and think there is a sonic signature that they erroneously believe they won’t get sick of. Ever visit a site called the audio shark? They seem like a great group of guys, but swap gear like Wilt Chamberlain swaps girlfriends because of misunderstanding a basic psychological concept of habituation/ economic concept of declining marginal utility. They get all hot about some piece of gear in the beginning of a thread, imagining how that piece of gear will bring them bliss. They get their hands on it and are all euphoric about for a few weeks. Yet only after few months of living with it they are dreaming about the bliss of the new piece of gear. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with approaching the hobby this way. Just another segment and different goals, who may demand a deal or a deep discount.

Sure, the industry growth seems to have slowed down for a variety of reasons. But with a million things completing for our attention, so has pretty much everything else. Baseball world series ratings are at an all time low also. but the high end audio industry has adjusted by raising prices.

PeterA · Oct 24, 2014

caesar said:
who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

Interesting. I'm familiar with, and own, a couple of the brands you single out. Which "smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke" Pass Labs amplifiers? Are you suggesting that owners of Pass, Magico and those other brands are "less demanding"? Could you explain what you mean by this?

There is now exposure to smaller, less advertised and reviewed brands in places like audio shows, the internet review sites like 6 moons, and at fellow audiophiles' houses. There are many, many choices as you point out. Perhaps more now than ever before. Is that not a good thing?

ack · Oct 24, 2014

Champ04 said:
Here we have Rockitman boldly proclaiming that he DEMANDS such and such discounts. And when I see statements like that I find myself seriously conflicted. The scientifically minded part of me feels like cheering him and telling him that he is absolutely right and SHOULD expect a discount. (Especially on such bloated crap ((personal opinion!!!)) as Transparent.) But there is the former experience of being a salesman in this hobby that makes my gut want to grab Rockitman by the collar and throw is arse out the front door.

First, I found your entire post extremely well thought out. Three comments on the above: 1) Yes, unfortunately, I also think most audiophile consumers demand discounts, seeing the exorbitant prices and lack of performance in some components, but also because in our entire audiophile career some of us end up spending a lot of money, the equivalent of a Ferrari or more. 2) You brought up a typical brand as an example, which to me offers virtually nothing, and your adjective is how I literally describe it to my audio buddies in private. So it's tough not to be sometimes critical of pricing in the industry; which brings me to 3) This doesn't mean we are criticizing those who spend their money any which way they want; we are simply expressing a point of view based on perceived value, technology and sonics.

Champ04 said:
Which brings me full circle and back to fully agreeing with ElliotG. And I'll go one step further than he did when it comes to lamenting the "deal" seekers. And before I do, let me say that I am fully aware that not ALL audiophiles are like what I am about to convey. But enough are!

And that has to do with outright stealing from a dealer. Stealing from him in the form of time and resources. There were many reasons why I willingly chose to abandon the sales side of this industry. But a major one was the increasing problem of douchebag customers. Customers who I would spend upwards of 6 months dealing with, on every weekend, and even well past normal business hours. Customers who I would do small favors for, things that would normally be charged a service fee, for free. All in the interest of developing a long term relationship. Months spent working to the point of sweating (literally, moving quarter ton speakers multiple times in and out of position.) only to have the guy disappear for several months. Disappear, that is, until he suddenly needed service on the speakers that he auditioned for months at my store but ended up buying on huge discount somewhere else. And what did I get out of it? nothing more than the satisfaction of telling him to go **** himself when he thought he was doing me a favor by bringing his service work to me.

So true... in most cases, this is downright unethical at best; but there are a couple of grey areas (all assume consumers have used the dealer's time and resources): 1) What if Mr Consumer auditions the Translucent-80 amplifier and then goes and buys the more powerful version Translucent-150 (that you may not even carry in the store) from someone else w/o even an audition?? 2) What if Mr Consumer makes you an offer for Translucent-80 which you do not accept? 3) What if Mr Consumer pays full price and then the unit doesn't perform up to spec, but the dealer doesn't think it's a big deal because you found something minor and brushes you off? How is Mr Consumer then supposed to treat the dealer in subsequent transactions???

Personally, I support the authorized dealer model, but at the end of the day, this is business so let's make a deal before I waste the dealer's time.

TheMadMilkman · Oct 24, 2014

caesar said:
There are fairly low entry costs into the high end audio industry. Any guy can assemble the stuff in his garage. capital requirements are fairly low. just build the more complex parts of the gear in someone else’s shop. if you cook up a recipe that others like, you can get “large”. And if you get large, you can open your own machine/ furniture / metal shop. if you so, you can build your own cabinets and drivers, and use it as point of quality/differentiation…

If you haven't, I'd recommend that you read the "Schiit Happened" thread over on Head-Fi. I'd personally stick to reading Jason's posts and ignoring the chatter from other users, since most of it amounts to fanboy noise. Still, it presents a great perspective on an extremely successful audio company that started in a garage with $10,000 in capital. He has some very strong opinions about most everything, some of which I agree with and others of which I don't, but it's hard to argue against the company's success.

Schiit Happened

The company recently released their first integrated amp. I have a feeling we'll hear a lot more about them in the future.

These low entry barriers have caused a proliferation of gear today to suit every taste: from highly musical stuff that conveys human emotions to highly resolving stuff that succeeds at mechanical excellence and detail resolution. There are so many turntables, dacs, speakers, amps, cables, and combinations of the above that it makes your head spin. And all these excessive choices no doubt drives away customers due to sheer confusion because there is no one to trust to help separate the wheat from the chaff. So the primary marketing strategy of successful audio firms is to get a reviewer to like your stuff. If they do, they can mention it every time they write about it...

The reliance on reviewers feels a little "old media" to me, for lack of a better term. I'm not saying that reviews aren't important, but I think that magazine reviews carry less and less weight as time goes on. Maybe they matter more at the extreme high-end. But I think that companies can build a following better using online media than they ever could by relying on magazine reviews. I also think that very few companies have the social and technical know-how to do this, but that can change.

It’s a shame, but most reviewers are like smegma (there are a few good guys, but they are rare). Most help protect the incumbents and blockbuster brands; most reviewers just follow the heard and most are too gutless to voice independent opinions.

who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

I just wish that reviewers would have a viewpoint, period. Stop liking everything. Stop being non-critical. Stop making me read between the lines. This is especially bad with the reviewers for online publications.

This week, Stereophile published an op-ed written by JGH back in 1980. There was a man with a strong viewpoint. And, 34 years later, that viewpoint still gets people riled up:

JGH makes people angry

Even if you don't agree with JGH's viewpoint (hifi defined by the reproduction of unamplified music in an acoustic space or whatever the exact wording was), you at least knew what he wanted and could read his reviews in light of that.

Also, the reviewers take on authority mentality. they see the audiophile as some dumb f#%! that they need to give specific instructions to : "this is the best", "I would by this speaker/ dac/ amp”... This is not helpful to consumers and is actually very insulting. despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? the consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their incentive.

I can think of a few reviewers who talk this way, but I think they're in the minority.

Although I did stop reading anything Sam Tellig wrote for a while because I got so tired of reading about Musical Fidelity and Triangle.

caesar · Oct 25, 2014

PeterA said:
Interesting. I'm familiar with, and own, a couple of the brands you single out. Which "smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke" Pass Labs amplifiers? Are you suggesting that owners of Pass, Magico and those other brands are "less demanding"? Could you explain what you mean by this?

There is now exposure to smaller, less advertised and reviewed brands in places like audio shows, the internet review sites like 6 moons, and at fellow audiophiles' houses. There are many, many choices as you point out. Perhaps more now than ever before. Is that not a good thing?

PeterA,

First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

Also, interestingly, research shows that consumers of obscure products appreciate those products less than owners of popular products. The more obscure the product, the less likely it is to be appreciated. In effect, what results is a natural monopoly of popular, yet not necessarily “best” products. People’s tastes tend to converge on a select few blockbuster products rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings.

And the internet/ social media, of course, amplifies all of this…

But social proof is just one influence force acting on us. There are others even stronger. With so many overwhelming choices and extremely high prices, it sure hurts a lot if you go with the wrong piece. In fact it hurts a lot more to lose a dollar than to gain a dollar. (It’s just human nature and it affects famous investors, famous athletes, audiophiles, and pretty much everyone else. For example, it has been proven that people sell winning stocks too early but hold on to losers for a long time in fear of experiencing a loss.) So why not buy a product that many others like and is favorably thought of by professional reviewers/ audio intellectuals? Surely, one cannot be too wrong and not experience that painful loss.

People can claim to be not be swayed by influences and making deeply personal choices. But then you look at the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh, etc., and you have to ask: Not Swayed? Right…

By looking at the popular brands, it clearly shows most guys in this hobby are herd thinkers (both audiophiles, dealers, and reviewers). Bring it up and they deny it. They use their ears, they say. But they are operating from a set of biases they are not even aware of. But then why is this clump of Magico, Wilson, ARC, Macintosh, etc., getting most of the sales and reviews while virtually everyone else is starving (or keeping a second job)? How many of those low selling brands sell just a single unit a year, usually to their mother?

It’s no coincidence that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. With so many different flavors of sonic signatures in individual components, one can build so many systems to create a similar sound and excellent sound. Guys who run audio magazines are assured of an audience and ad sales by covering and hoarding around the popular brands. Dealers are assured of customers walking into their shops. Audiophiles hoard around these popular “Lady Gagas” and “Peyton Mannings” and the result is a strong concentration of sales for the blockbuster brands that promise familiar and repeatable experiences in an uncertain market.

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters.

caesar · Oct 25, 2014

TheMadMilkman said:
If you haven't, I'd recommend that you read the "Schiit Happened" thread over on Head-Fi. I'd personally stick to reading Jason's posts and ignoring the chatter from other users, since most of it amounts to fanboy noise. Still, it presents a great perspective on an extremely successful audio company that started in a garage with $10,000 in capital. He has some very strong opinions about most everything, some of which I agree with and others of which I don't, but it's hard to argue against the company's success.

Schiit Happened

The company recently released their first integrated amp. I have a feeling we'll hear a lot more about them in the future.

The reliance on reviewers feels a little "old media" to me, for lack of a better term. I'm not saying that reviews aren't important, but I think that magazine reviews carry less and less weight as time goes on. Maybe they matter more at the extreme high-end. But I think that companies can build a following better using online media than they ever could by relying on magazine reviews. I also think that very few companies have the social and technical know-how to do this, but that can change.

I just wish that reviewers would have a viewpoint, period. Stop liking everything. Stop being non-critical. Stop making me read between the lines. This is especially bad with the reviewers for online publications.

This week, Stereophile published an op-ed written by JGH back in 1980. There was a man with a strong viewpoint. And, 34 years later, that viewpoint still gets people riled up:

JGH makes people angry

Even if you don't agree with JGH's viewpoint (hifi defined by the reproduction of unamplified music in an acoustic space or whatever the exact wording was), you at least knew what he wanted and could read his reviews in light of that.

I can think of a few reviewers who talk this way, but I think they're in the minority.

Although I did stop reading anything Sam Tellig wrote for a while because I got so tired of reading about Musical Fidelity and Triangle.

Thanks. I will check out the case study. I was always wondering about that name though, and honestly was turned away from the company because of it. But it's good to see entrepreneurs succeed.

In short, to answer your question, audio reviewers / audio intellectuals are just one source of information. For those of us who are busy and don't surf the forums a whole lot due to many other responsibilities and hobbies, we can open a magazine and get an ("informed"/ "biased") opinion. Furthermore, from a social psychology perspective, influence by authority is a very powerful influence technique. Obviously it's not the only influence technique, but when big bucks are involved, and mistakes are very expensive, frustrating, and painful, support by a powerful reviewer is just another "brick in the wall" in decision making.

Peter Breuninger · Oct 25, 2014

Very powerful emotions here. Caesar is prolific in his essay and is spot on in many respects. I like the 80/20 rule reference and believe that the more successful companies are a result of their own success, they plow back investment in engineering and have a dog minded belief that they are the best at what they do. Reviewers? They are the voice of their own choice of their own esthetic.

I like soundstage, the concert experience and tonality. I drift to larger loudspeakers, 360 degree speakers and now, ultra small loudspeakers with no baffle effects... the commonality is the former statement, damn the execution. I believe in telling you what I hear in a component with my spoken voice and I let my eyes tell the rest with their sincerity or lack there of.

PeterA · Oct 25, 2014

caesar said:
PeterA,

First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

Also, interestingly, research shows that consumers of obscure products appreciate those products less than owners of popular products. The more obscure the product, the less likely it is to be appreciated. In effect, what results is a natural monopoly of popular, yet not necessarily “best” products. People’s tastes tend to converge on a select few blockbuster products rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings.

And the internet/ social media, of course, amplifies all of this…

But social proof is just one influence force acting on us. There are others even stronger. With so many overwhelming choices and extremely high prices, it sure hurts a lot if you go with the wrong piece. In fact it hurts a lot more to lose a dollar than to gain a dollar. (It’s just human nature and it affects famous investors, famous athletes, audiophiles, and pretty much everyone else. For example, it has been proven that people sell winning stocks too early but hold on to losers for a long time in fear of experiencing a loss.) So why not buy a product that many others like and is favorably thought of by professional reviewers/ audio intellectuals? Surely, one cannot be too wrong and not experience that painful loss.

People can claim to be not be swayed by influences and making deeply personal choices. But then you look at the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh, etc., and you have to ask: Not Swayed? Right…

By looking at the popular brands, it clearly shows most guys in this hobby are herd thinkers (both audiophiles, dealers, and reviewers). Bring it up and they deny it. They use their ears, they say. But they are operating from a set of biases they are not even aware of. But then why is this clump of Magico, Wilson, ARC, Macintosh, etc., getting most of the sales and reviews while virtually everyone else is starving (or keeping a second job)? How many of those low selling brands sell just a single unit a year, usually to their mother?

It’s no coincidence that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. With so many different flavors of sonic signatures in individual components, one can build so many systems to create a similar sound and excellent sound. Guys who run audio magazines are assured of an audience and ad sales by covering and hoarding around the popular brands. Dealers are assured of customers walking into their shops. Audiophiles hoard around these popular “Lady Gagas” and “Peyton Mannings” and the result is a strong concentration of sales for the blockbuster brands that promise familiar and repeatable experiences in an uncertain market.

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters.

caesar, I thought I had asked a fairly simply question regarding your assertion that less talked about companies "frequently smoke the blockbuster brands." Psychology of buying patterns aside, what lesser known brands do you think "frequently smoke" amplifiers designed by Pass Labs? You also asserted that buyers of these "blockbuster" brands are "less demanding". I did not see your explanation of that in the above post unless you assume that people just buy those blockbuster brands based on reviews and forum chat. Would someone buying a Magico or Wilson speaker really spend less time researching his decision than someone buying a Nola or Vandersteen speaker?

microstrip · Oct 25, 2014

caesar said:
PeterA,

First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

Also, interestingly, research shows that consumers of obscure products appreciate those products less than owners of popular products. The more obscure the product, the less likely it is to be appreciated. In effect, what results is a natural monopoly of popular, yet not necessarily “best” products. People’s tastes tend to converge on a select few blockbuster products rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings.

And the internet/ social media, of course, amplifies all of this…

But social proof is just one influence force acting on us. There are others even stronger. With so many overwhelming choices and extremely high prices, it sure hurts a lot if you go with the wrong piece. In fact it hurts a lot more to lose a dollar than to gain a dollar. (It’s just human nature and it affects famous investors, famous athletes, audiophiles, and pretty much everyone else. For example, it has been proven that people sell winning stocks too early but hold on to losers for a long time in fear of experiencing a loss.) So why not buy a product that many others like and is favorably thought of by professional reviewers/ audio intellectuals? Surely, one cannot be too wrong and not experience that painful loss.

People can claim to be not be swayed by influences and making deeply personal choices. But then you look at the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh, etc., and you have to ask: Not Swayed? Right…

By looking at the popular brands, it clearly shows most guys in this hobby are herd thinkers (both audiophiles, dealers, and reviewers). Bring it up and they deny it. They use their ears, they say. But they are operating from a set of biases they are not even aware of. But then why is this clump of Magico, Wilson, ARC, Macintosh, etc., getting most of the sales and reviews while virtually everyone else is starving (or keeping a second job)? How many of those low selling brands sell just a single unit a year, usually to their mother?

It’s no coincidence that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. With so many different flavors of sonic signatures in individual components, one can build so many systems to create a similar sound and excellent sound. Guys who run audio magazines are assured of an audience and ad sales by covering and hoarding around the popular brands. Dealers are assured of customers walking into their shops. Audiophiles hoard around these popular “Lady Gagas” and “Peyton Mannings” and the result is a strong concentration of sales for the blockbuster brands that promise familiar and repeatable experiences in an uncertain market.

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters.

Caesar,

I really disagree with you. Your analysis completely ignores the specific and unique aspects of high-end audio.

You pick a few true cases, and even without trying a proper proper analysis of the reasons behind them, make curious and funny remarks. IMHO only this way you could arrive at the dubious concluding sentence:

caesar said:
Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters.

As far as I know the more demanding audiophiles stick with known brands. And I do not see less popular brands outperforming the well known ones.

BTW, IMHO in high-end there are no best products - we must think about best systems in real rooms.

As always, YMMV.

caesar · Dec 1, 2014

microstrip said:
Caesar,

I really disagree with you. Your analysis completely ignores the specific and unique aspects of high-end audio.

You pick a few true cases, and even without trying a proper proper analysis of the reasons behind them, make curious and funny remarks. IMHO only this way you could arrive at the dubious concluding sentence:

As far as I know the more demanding audiophiles stick with known brands. And I do not see less popular brands outperforming the well known ones.

BTW, IMHO in high-end there are no best products - we must think about best systems in real rooms.

As always, YMMV.

Microstrip, not necessarily trying to get you to agree with me. I have had this discussion many times (discussing human behavior in sports, finance, personal behavior, etcetera), and I have been right every time. The ideas of influence that I am talking about – influence via authority figures, social influence, and motivation for loss aversion that I refer to in the previous posts are extremely well understood because they are prevalent in human actions. (Nobel prizes have been won for uncovering some of these.) But convincing people is another story....

Just looking at the situation through a different lens, a lens of economics and psychology provides a more holistic and rational view, and allows interpreting the situation differently. Look, sure, it would be cool if the wolfster, king David, and others shared their sales revenue and ad expenses. And it would be very cool if tas, stereophile, and others shared their ad revenues by brand. And it would be cool to peer in the books of dealers who sell multiple brands... All that information could be used to build an economic model that shows the value of each brand and allows one to see how people tradeoff between brands at different prices, similar to what Amazon dot com uses to set prices for underwear, shirts, or toasters they sell. Such a model would rub out the confusion and emotion, but unfortunately without data it's unrealistic....

But even without this private information, we can easily get at the truths that underpin our great hobby using basic economics and social psychology that are at play. These patterns occur mechanistically and automatically: people don't even realize they are occurring and are easily influenced. As an analogue, we can look beyond our little hobby to an area of entertainment economics.

From a 10,000 foot level, high end audio is unique but not that unique. It's an experience good. Gear manufacturers and high end audio magazines are not offering an object for sale, nor a service. Instead , just like other forms of entertainment, such as movies or concerts, they are offering an experience. (I know many have a hard time accepting this reality, especially on this site, who only see this through am engineering product lens.) But engineers cannot test a new piece of gear (or a movie) in a lab, like a new tire, and evaluate its performance for audiophiles. That makes it extra hard for audiophiles to know in advance if the "experience” for sale is one they we would like to have, so critics and word-of-mouth comments from other consumers play major roles in marketing, and subjective judgments rule. There are few, if any, “objective” claims to high quality, and audiophiles disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality.

Psychology research finds that social influence (social proof is the technical term) is a very powerful force that can affect human behavior without the individuals even being aware of it. Say u go to a concert in a stadium and see Bon Jove or the rolling bones, while your friend sees chick corea or Ramsey Lewis in a small club. The next day you go to a company picnic. What do you think will make more interesting conversation with your colleagues? Sure you may get lucky and find a jazz aficionado who will be captivated by your experience. But you will have a lot more social currency by talking about Mick Jagger and the boys, although they should have euthanized themselves on stage. Or take a sports example: Sharapova is the largest earning female athlete, yet not the best tennis player. Yet if she is playing in a tournament, the TV network will show her match, even if she is playing someone ranked #399 in the world, while there could be 2 top 8 ladies playing a highly dramatic, skillful, and emotional match that will be ignored.

Humans always want to fit into a group and believe the group is better informed than they are. Getting back to audio, it can be argued that Cat - vivid giya is a much better system than Wilson arc. ( yes, I know you have that combo, and I'm not suggesting you are a mindless robot, but I'm suggesting that most folks with that combo are, or at least did not do enough homework , and did not have enough determination, adventurousness, and self-confidence to seek out the better vivid / cat combo.)

People’s perceptions have been altered by the actors in the media and thousands of regular folks in this hobby who own these brands, reinforcing the vicious loop. Furthermore, if your dealer or distributor has limited resources, just like the rest of us, in order to continue making a living, he will carry those celebrity brands in favor of doing the hard work of marketing what may be better sounding gear. Likewise, it can be argued that someone can save a lot of cash by going with Kef Blades over Magico's. Just pair the Kef with Chord, and you have the cleaner, leaner sound of magico Q series that spotlights the upper midrange and lower treble. Or pair the Blades with Macintosh and you get the slower , plumper bottom end sound of the magico s class that is so popular at this time. But you almost never see any of those Kef systems in reality. Audiophiles are very brand loyal and choose blockbuster products, just as you see people flocking to watch Titanic in the entertainment industries. Nothing wrong with it, as it is a hobby, and in a free society, people can spend their money any way they like.

For even more evidence of how celebrity brands dominate, just look at the recent product of the year awards in the most well-known audio magazines. Tas did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to Rockport alone. Instead, Rockport have to share it with the better known brand magico. Likewise, stereophile did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to vivid giya alone. Instead they have to share it with Wilson alexia.... Just a coincidence, huh? Hulk hogan used to win every night also... Just goes to show that the blockbuster brands are the mother’s milk to magazine success.

Obviously, the magazines believe they will lose readers if they don't conform to the audiophile mob and publicize the celebrity brands because audiophiles are a group that is not immune to human psychology and likes those big blockbusters - just as everyone else. And these choices will further propagate the celebrity brands as the media amplifies the gap between the celebrities and everyone else....But it is what it is. Personally, I don't have a problem with this gap - but only if it is deserved. Yet in our subjective audio entertainment hobby, unfortunately, the praise is frequently not deserved. As a result, by chasing the blockbusters, hardworking consumers are frequently just buying a Honda Accord at a Maserati price.

But coming back to Eliot's contention, it's not "all price". Sure, it's a bitch being a dealer. There are undoubtedly a good number cases of what the Champ is talking about, above. (Although I imagine a lot harder with expensive speakers like Wilsons that not every Joe Schmo will know how to set up, do may require a local dealer with that expertise ). But with such strength among the blockbusters, there are a lot less substitutes. So by selling many blockbuster brands, Eliot is probably doing a lot better than most other dealers that sell the exotic or less popular gear.

PeterA · Dec 1, 2014

PeterA said:
Interesting. I'm familiar with, and own, a couple of the brands you single out. Which "smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke" Pass Labs amplifiers? Are you suggesting that owners of Pass, Magico and those other brands are "less demanding"? Could you explain what you mean by this?

Caesar, You write a lot and make many assertions. Yet you have failed to answer this simple question which I now ask you for the third time. I'm very curious to know what you think so that I can try to listen to that brand and perhaps save a lot of money the next time I want to upgrade my amplifiers.

microstrip · Dec 1, 2014

caesar said:
Microstrip, not necessarily trying to get you to agree with me. I have had this discussion many times (discussing human behavior in sports, finance, personal behavior, etcetera), and I have been right every time. The ideas of influence that I am talking about – influence via authority figures, social influence, and motivation for loss aversion that I refer to in the previous posts are extremely well understood because they are prevalent in human actions. (Nobel prizes have been won for uncovering some of these.) But convincing people is another story....

Just looking at the situation through a different lens, a lens of economics and psychology provides a more holistic and rational view, and allows interpreting the situation differently. Look, sure, it would be cool if the wolfster, king David, and others shared their sales revenue and ad expenses. And it would be very cool if tas, stereophile, and others shared their ad revenues by brand. And it would be cool to peer in the books of dealers who sell multiple brands... All that information could be used to build an economic model that shows the value of each brand and allows one to see how people tradeoff between brands at different prices, similar to what Amazon dot com uses to set prices for underwear, shirts, or toasters they sell. Such a model would rub out the confusion and emotion, but unfortunately without data it's unrealistic....

But even without this private information, we can easily get at the truths that underpin our great hobby using basic economics and social psychology that are at play. These patterns occur mechanistically and automatically: people don't even realize they are occurring and are easily influenced. As an analogue, we can look beyond our little hobby to an area of entertainment economics.

From a 10,000 foot level, high end audio is unique but not that unique. It's an experience good. Gear manufacturers and high end audio magazines are not offering an object for sale, nor a service. Instead , just like other forms of entertainment, such as movies or concerts, they are offering an experience. (I know many have a hard time accepting this reality, especially on this site, who only see this through am engineering product lens.) But engineers cannot test a new piece of gear (or a movie) in a lab, like a new tire, and evaluate its performance for audiophiles. That makes it extra hard for audiophiles to know in advance if the "experience” for sale is one they we would like to have, so critics and word-of-mouth comments from other consumers play major roles in marketing, and subjective judgments rule. There are few, if any, “objective” claims to high quality, and audiophiles disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality.

Psychology research finds that social influence (social proof is the technical term) is a very powerful force that can affect human behavior without the individuals even being aware of it. Say u go to a concert in a stadium and see Bon Jove or the rolling bones, while your friend sees chick corea or Ramsey Lewis in a small club. The next day you go to a company picnic. What do you think will make more interesting conversation with your colleagues? Sure you may get lucky and find a jazz aficionado who will be captivated by your experience. But you will have a lot more social currency by talking about Mick Jagger and the boys, although they should have euthanized themselves on stage. Or take a sports example: Sharapova is the largest earning female athlete, yet not the best tennis player. Yet if she is playing in a tournament, the TV network will show her match, even if she is playing someone ranked #399 in the world, while there could be 2 top 8 ladies playing a highly dramatic, skillful, and emotional match that will be ignored.

Humans always want to fit into a group and believe the group is better informed than they are. Getting back to audio, it can be argued that Cat - vivid giya is a much better system than Wilson arc. ( yes, I know you have that combo, and I'm not suggesting you are a mindless robot, but I'm suggesting that most folks with that combo are, or at least did not do enough homework , and did not have enough determination, adventurousness, and self-confidence to seek out the better vivid / cat combo.)

People’s perceptions have been altered by the actors in the media and thousands of regular folks in this hobby who own these brands, reinforcing the vicious loop. Furthermore, if your dealer or distributor has limited resources, just like the rest of us, in order to continue making a living, he will carry those celebrity brands in favor of doing the hard work of marketing what may be better sounding gear. Likewise, it can be argued that someone can save a lot of cash by going with Kef Blades over Magico's. Just pair the Kef with Chord, and you have the cleaner, leaner sound of magico Q series that spotlights the upper midrange and lower treble. Or pair the Blades with Macintosh and you get the slower , plumper bottom end sound of the magico s class that is so popular at this time. But you almost never see any of those Kef systems in reality. Audiophiles are very brand loyal and choose blockbuster products, just as you see people flocking to watch Titanic in the entertainment industries. Nothing wrong with it, as it is a hobby, and in a free society, people can spend their money any way they like.

For even more evidence of how celebrity brands dominate, just look at the recent product of the year awards in the most well-known audio magazines. Tas did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to Rockport alone. Instead, Rockport have to share it with the better known brand magico. Likewise, stereophile did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to vivid giya alone. Instead they have to share it with Wilson alexia.... Just a coincidence, huh? Hulk hogan used to win every night also... Just goes to show that the blockbuster brands are the mother’s milk to magazine success.

Obviously, the magazines believe they will lose readers if they don't conform to the audiophile mob and publicize the celebrity brands because audiophiles are a group that is not immune to human psychology and likes those big blockbusters - just as everyone else. And these choices will further propagate the celebrity brands as the media amplifies the gap between the celebrities and everyone else....But it is what it is. Personally, I don't have a problem with this gap - but only if it is deserved. Yet in our subjective audio entertainment hobby, unfortunately, the praise is frequently not deserved. As a result, by chasing the blockbusters, hardworking consumers are frequently just buying a Honda Accord at a Maserati price.

But coming back to Eliot's contention, it's not "all price". Sure, it's a bitch being a dealer. There are undoubtedly a good number cases of what the Champ is talking about, above. (Although I imagine a lot harder with expensive speakers like Wilsons that not every Joe Schmo will know how to set up, do may require a local dealer with that expertise ). But with such strength among the blockbusters, there are a lot less substitutes. So by selling many blockbuster brands, Eliot is probably doing a lot better than most other dealers that sell the exotic or less popular gear.

Ceasar,

I can easily admit you are an expert in discussing human behavior in other hobbies or products - something I am not interested at all, sorry.

But unfortunately it seems to me you are out of the reality of audiophile world - your audio examples suggest you ignore the outstanding aspects of the Magico speakers and reduce the audiophile preferences and choices to tonal balance. You are not alone - most of the comparisons I have read between S and Q sound are partially true, but childish. And yes, I have heard the Blades with McIntosh and I know about people having such system ...

And as other posters referred your long post does not answer the aspects you quoted and I repeat:

"As far as I know the more demanding audiophiles stick with known brands. And I do not see less popular brands outperforming the well known ones.
BTW, IMHO in high-end there are no best products - we must think about best systems in real rooms"

BobM · Dec 2, 2014

Wow, lets see if we can re-quote a post that fills an entire page in a thread.

Johnny Vinyl · Dec 2, 2014

caesar said:
Elliot, interesting thread... let's look at things a bit more holistically from an economic perspective..

There are fairly low entry costs into the high end audio industry. Any guy can assemble the stuff in his garage. capital requirements are fairly low. just build the more complex parts of the gear in someone else’s shop. if you cook up a recipe that others like, you can get “large”. And if you get large, you can open your own machine/ furniture / metal shop. if you so, you can build your own cabinets and drivers, and use it as point of quality/differentiation…

These low entry barriers have caused a proliferation of gear today to suit every taste: from highly musical stuff that conveys human emotions to highly resolving stuff that succeeds at mechanical excellence and detail resolution. There are so many turntables, dacs, speakers, amps, cables, and combinations of the above that it makes your head spin. And all these excessive choices no doubt drives away customers due to sheer confusion because there is no one to trust to help separate the wheat from the chaff. So the primary marketing strategy of successful audio firms is to get a reviewer to like your stuff. If they do, they can mention it every time they write about it...

It’s a shame, but most reviewers are like smegma (there are a few good guys, but they are rare). Most help protect the incumbents and blockbuster brands; most reviewers just follow the heard and most are too gutless to voice independent opinions.

who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

Also, the reviewers take on authority mentality. they see the audiophile as some dumb f#%! that they need to give specific instructions to : "this is the best", "I would by this speaker/ dac/ amp”... This is not helpful to consumers and is actually very insulting. despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? the consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their incentive.

You touch on the bargaining power of consumers, but your comments are incomplete. Some consumers have a taste preference that they follow for years (remember the hunt for the Absolute Sound?). Sure, customers can shop around and play different dealers off against each other in order to drive price down or demand a high quality of service. But if you know what you like, you can’t really substitute. If a customer loves the Vivid Giya, the Wilson or Magico will not do.. If customer thinks ARC is inferior to CAT, he will find a way to get a CAT into your system despite the low number of dealers and paying a premium. So your purchase outlet choices as a consumer are quite limited in this small industry.

Yet, other customers frequently swap gear when they get used to one sound and think there is a sonic signature that they erroneously believe they won’t get sick of. Ever visit a site called the audio shark? They seem like a great group of guys, but swap gear like Wilt Chamberlain swaps girlfriends because of misunderstanding a basic psychological concept of habituation/ economic concept of declining marginal utility. They get all hot about some piece of gear in the beginning of a thread, imagining how that piece of gear will bring them bliss. They get their hands on it and are all euphoric about for a few weeks. Yet only after few months of living with it they are dreaming about the bliss of the new piece of gear. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with approaching the hobby this way. Just another segment and different goals, who may demand a deal or a deep discount.

Sure, the industry growth seems to have slowed down for a variety of reasons. But with a million things completing for our attention, so has pretty much everything else. Baseball world series ratings are at an all time low also. but the high end audio industry has adjusted by raising prices.

caesar said:
PeterA,

First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

Also, interestingly, research shows that consumers of obscure products appreciate those products less than owners of popular products. The more obscure the product, the less likely it is to be appreciated. In effect, what results is a natural monopoly of popular, yet not necessarily “best” products. People’s tastes tend to converge on a select few blockbuster products rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings.

And the internet/ social media, of course, amplifies all of this…

But social proof is just one influence force acting on us. There are others even stronger. With so many overwhelming choices and extremely high prices, it sure hurts a lot if you go with the wrong piece. In fact it hurts a lot more to lose a dollar than to gain a dollar. (It’s just human nature and it affects famous investors, famous athletes, audiophiles, and pretty much everyone else. For example, it has been proven that people sell winning stocks too early but hold on to losers for a long time in fear of experiencing a loss.) So why not buy a product that many others like and is favorably thought of by professional reviewers/ audio intellectuals? Surely, one cannot be too wrong and not experience that painful loss.

People can claim to be not be swayed by influences and making deeply personal choices. But then you look at the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh, etc., and you have to ask: Not Swayed? Right…

By looking at the popular brands, it clearly shows most guys in this hobby are herd thinkers (both audiophiles, dealers, and reviewers). Bring it up and they deny it. They use their ears, they say. But they are operating from a set of biases they are not even aware of. But then why is this clump of Magico, Wilson, ARC, Macintosh, etc., getting most of the sales and reviews while virtually everyone else is starving (or keeping a second job)? How many of those low selling brands sell just a single unit a year, usually to their mother?

It’s no coincidence that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. With so many different flavors of sonic signatures in individual components, one can build so many systems to create a similar sound and excellent sound. Guys who run audio magazines are assured of an audience and ad sales by covering and hoarding around the popular brands. Dealers are assured of customers walking into their shops. Audiophiles hoard around these popular “Lady Gagas” and “Peyton Mannings” and the result is a strong concentration of sales for the blockbuster brands that promise familiar and repeatable experiences in an uncertain market.

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters.

caesar said:
Microstrip, not necessarily trying to get you to agree with me. I have had this discussion many times (discussing human behavior in sports, finance, personal behavior, etcetera), and I have been right every time. The ideas of influence that I am talking about – influence via authority figures, social influence, and motivation for loss aversion that I refer to in the previous posts are extremely well understood because they are prevalent in human actions. (Nobel prizes have been won for uncovering some of these.) But convincing people is another story....

Just looking at the situation through a different lens, a lens of economics and psychology provides a more holistic and rational view, and allows interpreting the situation differently. Look, sure, it would be cool if the wolfster, king David, and others shared their sales revenue and ad expenses. And it would be very cool if tas, stereophile, and others shared their ad revenues by brand. And it would be cool to peer in the books of dealers who sell multiple brands... All that information could be used to build an economic model that shows the value of each brand and allows one to see how people tradeoff between brands at different prices, similar to what Amazon dot com uses to set prices for underwear, shirts, or toasters they sell. Such a model would rub out the confusion and emotion, but unfortunately without data it's unrealistic....

But even without this private information, we can easily get at the truths that underpin our great hobby using basic economics and social psychology that are at play. These patterns occur mechanistically and automatically: people don't even realize they are occurring and are easily influenced. As an analogue, we can look beyond our little hobby to an area of entertainment economics.

From a 10,000 foot level, high end audio is unique but not that unique. It's an experience good. Gear manufacturers and high end audio magazines are not offering an object for sale, nor a service. Instead , just like other forms of entertainment, such as movies or concerts, they are offering an experience. (I know many have a hard time accepting this reality, especially on this site, who only see this through am engineering product lens.) But engineers cannot test a new piece of gear (or a movie) in a lab, like a new tire, and evaluate its performance for audiophiles. That makes it extra hard for audiophiles to know in advance if the "experience” for sale is one they we would like to have, so critics and word-of-mouth comments from other consumers play major roles in marketing, and subjective judgments rule. There are few, if any, “objective” claims to high quality, and audiophiles disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality.

Psychology research finds that social influence (social proof is the technical term) is a very powerful force that can affect human behavior without the individuals even being aware of it. Say u go to a concert in a stadium and see Bon Jove or the rolling bones, while your friend sees chick corea or Ramsey Lewis in a small club. The next day you go to a company picnic. What do you think will make more interesting conversation with your colleagues? Sure you may get lucky and find a jazz aficionado who will be captivated by your experience. But you will have a lot more social currency by talking about Mick Jagger and the boys, although they should have euthanized themselves on stage. Or take a sports example: Sharapova is the largest earning female athlete, yet not the best tennis player. Yet if she is playing in a tournament, the TV network will show her match, even if she is playing someone ranked #399 in the world, while there could be 2 top 8 ladies playing a highly dramatic, skillful, and emotional match that will be ignored.

Humans always want to fit into a group and believe the group is better informed than they are. Getting back to audio, it can be argued that Cat - vivid giya is a much better system than Wilson arc. ( yes, I know you have that combo, and I'm not suggesting you are a mindless robot, but I'm suggesting that most folks with that combo are, or at least did not do enough homework , and did not have enough determination, adventurousness, and self-confidence to seek out the better vivid / cat combo.)

People’s perceptions have been altered by the actors in the media and thousands of regular folks in this hobby who own these brands, reinforcing the vicious loop. Furthermore, if your dealer or distributor has limited resources, just like the rest of us, in order to continue making a living, he will carry those celebrity brands in favor of doing the hard work of marketing what may be better sounding gear. Likewise, it can be argued that someone can save a lot of cash by going with Kef Blades over Magico's. Just pair the Kef with Chord, and you have the cleaner, leaner sound of magico Q series that spotlights the upper midrange and lower treble. Or pair the Blades with Macintosh and you get the slower , plumper bottom end sound of the magico s class that is so popular at this time. But you almost never see any of those Kef systems in reality. Audiophiles are very brand loyal and choose blockbuster products, just as you see people flocking to watch Titanic in the entertainment industries. Nothing wrong with it, as it is a hobby, and in a free society, people can spend their money any way they like.

For even more evidence of how celebrity brands dominate, just look at the recent product of the year awards in the most well-known audio magazines. Tas did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to Rockport alone. Instead, Rockport have to share it with the better known brand magico. Likewise, stereophile did not have the courage to give the speaker of the year award to vivid giya alone. Instead they have to share it with Wilson alexia.... Just a coincidence, huh? Hulk hogan used to win every night also... Just goes to show that the blockbuster brands are the mother’s milk to magazine success.

Obviously, the magazines believe they will lose readers if they don't conform to the audiophile mob and publicize the celebrity brands because audiophiles are a group that is not immune to human psychology and likes those big blockbusters - just as everyone else. And these choices will further propagate the celebrity brands as the media amplifies the gap between the celebrities and everyone else....But it is what it is. Personally, I don't have a problem with this gap - but only if it is deserved. Yet in our subjective audio entertainment hobby, unfortunately, the praise is frequently not deserved. As a result, by chasing the blockbusters, hardworking consumers are frequently just buying a Honda Accord at a Maserati price.

But coming back to Eliot's contention, it's not "all price". Sure, it's a bitch being a dealer. There are undoubtedly a good number cases of what the Champ is talking about, above. (Although I imagine a lot harder with expensive speakers like Wilsons that not every Joe Schmo will know how to set up, do may require a local dealer with that expertise ). But with such strength among the blockbusters, there are a lot less substitutes. So by selling many blockbuster brands, Eliot is probably doing a lot better than most other dealers that sell the exotic or less popular gear.

Wow! Just WOW!

asiufy · Dec 2, 2014

caesar said:
People’s perceptions have been altered by the actors in the media and thousands of regular folks in this hobby who own these brands, reinforcing the vicious loop. Furthermore, if your dealer or distributor has limited resources, just like the rest of us, in order to continue making a living, he will carry those celebrity brands in favor of doing the hard work of marketing what may be better sounding gear. Likewise, it can be argued that someone can save a lot of cash by going with Kef Blades over Magico's. Just pair the Kef with Chord, and you have the cleaner, leaner sound of magico Q series that spotlights the upper midrange and lower treble. Or pair the Blades with Macintosh and you get the slower , plumper bottom end sound of the magico s class that is so popular at this time. But you almost never see any of those Kef systems in reality. Audiophiles are very brand loyal and choose blockbuster products, just as you see people flocking to watch Titanic in the entertainment industries. Nothing wrong with it, as it is a hobby, and in a free society, people can spend their money any way they like.

I'm with microstrip here, you're just spewing your knowledge of psychology as applied to other things, and pretending it applies to high-end audio, a much more subtle hobby than watching tennis.

The paragraph above proves this. You can wish all you want, but a KEF will never be a Magico, no matter what you pair it with.

alexandre

caesar · Dec 2, 2014

PeterA said:
Caesar, You write a lot and make many assertions. Yet you have failed to answer this simple question which I now ask you for the third time. I'm very curious to know what you think so that I can try to listen to that brand and perhaps save a lot of money the next time I want to upgrade my amplifiers.

Peter, not trying to ignore your question. I have a 1,000,001 things going on. Amp selection is tricky because dealers don't carry everything, you have to lift heavy boxes, hook, unhook, etc., - a pain in the arse, so people quit with a sub-optimal choice.

I’m actually a fan of pass labs x series. They are very good solid state, without pretending to be anything else. (Of course, you are paying a premium for the pass brand.) I have heard the XS models only at shows, so I don't have an opinion on the m. However, I am not a fan of the XA amps. Because I own tube amps, to my ears XA don't fool me into thinking I am listening to tubes and instead sound like very badly colored solid state, an egregious offence to my senses. It’s kind of like you are dating a girl who dies her hair blond. But instead of getting her hair done once a month, she has missed her hair colorist appointment for 3 months. Nobody is fooled by those long black roots.

So what do I think is better? if you can find a used Conrad Johnson Premier 350 for relatively dirt cheap. Para sound Halos are damn good and relatively inexpensive. Class e Monoblocks would cost triple if they were done by a smaller company, but Classe is not a sexy brand. But the amp that Pass XA wishes it were is the SY mphonic Line Krafts. Used are fairly cheap. I would love to hear your speakers with this amp.

andromedaaudio · Dec 2, 2014

Interesting story ceasar , i wont quote it .

I agree that a kef ain t a magico although both sound good
I also think there are plenty of good poweramps and they dont have to be very expensive to be very good sounding , when paired with a very good pre ( given the power output / speakermatch is there)

caesar · Dec 2, 2014

microstrip said:
Ceasar,

I can easily admit you are an expert in discussing human behavior in other hobbies or products - something I am not interested at all, sorry.

But unfortunately it seems to me you are out of the reality of audiophile world - your audio examples suggest you ignore the outstanding aspects of the Magico speakers and reduce the audiophile preferences and choices to tonal balance. You are not alone - most of the comparisons I have read between S and Q sound are partially true, but childish. And yes, I have heard the Blades with McIntosh and I know about people having such system ...

And as other posters referred your long post does not answer the aspects you quoted and I repeat:

"As far as I know the more demanding audiophiles stick with known brands. And I do not see less popular brands outperforming the well known ones.
BTW, IMHO in high-end there are no best products - we must think about best systems in real rooms"

Microstrip, thinking like a child is a huge advantage. Kids always seem to have a blast. Always curious. They seem to love to do whatever they do. They approach problems from a blank slate. When something sucks, children let you know openly. They shamelessly yawn when you are boring them. I think most adults would be better off borrowing some of these tendencies from children. And remember, it was a child who pointed out the emperor had no clothes.

Kidding aside, on a personal level, I think very hard and critically about many things for a good part of the day. So when I turn on my system, I want to stop thinking and find a state of flow when mind and body connect and I reach bliss … My reference is live music. I am lucky to have the opportunity to hear a lot of it. Based on that reference, if something is off, it’s a bliss destroyer. If audio gear produce detail or nuance that help convey emotions of the performance, I’m all for it. However, if this detail is there just because the engineer can create it, I find it distracting. But if something is monstrously bad, like the tonal balance, why discuss anything else? If a guy who wants to date your daughter has robbed the convenient store, who cares if he has a nice personality? Some things that are so wrong will discourage you from moving forward in your consideration…. But then again, one man’s error of commission is another’s error of omission...

Another interesting aspect of what you call “tonal balance” is the production of bass. Bass sets the rhythm. If the bass is not right, based on your references, the rhythm is off. The human body has its own rhythm, and listening to music can change brain function. Recent studies show that brainwaves resonate in time with rhythm. So if the bass doesn't sound right to you, you just don't reach the right mental state the music can help you achieve. So what you call tonal balance is actually a big deal.

When I hear any Magico and the majority of Wilsons, I hear audiophile words (Exceptions include wilson with D’agostino amps, and a handful of others- I would love to hear the Alexia or Alexandria driven by powerful CAT monoblocks). With these 2 blockbuster brands, I usually can’t get into the music. I may as well not partake in the hobby. My problem with these and other “larger” audiophile companies is that they hire too many engineers and design gear to check off the audiophile vocabulary rather than to sound like real music. To the engineer, the same parts may measure the same, but it takes someone with a high level of musical intelligence, in addition to very high intelligence in math and science, to make that assembly of parts sound like music.

Look, we all have different goals in this hobby. And since this is a discussion forum of people with diverse backgrounds and experiences, I want to understand why you think:
- Magico is special
- How's Magico different than YG, another metal speaker that can produce the same audiophile vocabulary, and that can actually sound "clean and accurate" with some amps, yet musical with others. How's Magico actually better than others, other than in marketing itself?
- How’s Wilson different (and/ or better) than Magico, based on your evaluation criteria - that goes beyond tonal balance?

New generaton of buyers ....nothing but the price

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