New BADA DAC; DSD Debunked?

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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There is no question that there is a statistical corellation between price and sound quality. This statement is of course not analogous to "more expensive is better". The fact you own $4k headphones surgent you are actually on board with the hypothesis.
Also, because sq is a subjective variable, you can of course always find someone that likes his favorite $40k speaker better than a highly acclaimed speaker double the price. The there is innovation, so someone may come along building a $16k piece (BADA?) that categorically beats the incumbent $50k leader (say DCS). None of this disproves the statistical correlation.

Fair enough. My take so that you can see where I am coming from: IMHO the Stax is One of the best headphones out there. My favorite remains the HifiMan HE6.

Let's keep the discussion to the BADA. The price thing is perverse in many ways. We must understand and some would struggle and resist mightily to accept this: Audio designers are business persons. They are in it to make a buck or more. They must understand and know their market, They do know by now that a unit costing much les than the competition is not usually well received. I am certain that many audiophiles approaching the BADA DACII, would assume that it is not in the same league as say a DCS 3-box units... before the fist digit has hit any of those DACS and that colors their perception, OUR perception.

Let's move this discussion to another thread but I believe the BADA Reference will be overlooked by more than one audiophile because of its "Price Class"...
 

edorr

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Fair enough. My take so that you can see where I am coming from: IMHO the Stax is One of the best headphones out there. My favorite remains the HifiMan HE6.

Let's keep the discussion to the BADA. The price thing is perverse in many ways. We must understand and some would struggle and resist mightily to accept this: Audio designers are business persons. They are in it to make a buck or more. They must understand and know their market, They do know by now that a unit costing much les than the competition is not usually well received. I am certain that many audiophiles approaching the BADA DACII, would assume that it is not in the same league as say a DCS 3-box units... before the fist digit has hit any of those DACS and that colors their perception, OUR perception.

Let's move this discussion to another thread but I believe the BADA Reference will be overlooked by more than one audiophile because of its "Price Class"...

If my bonus comes through I'll add a datapoint to the debate, because I'll try one myself against the $6k direct stream. I am not in the market for an expensive dac per se, because the direct stream replaced $30k MSB. Worse, I found the sub $2k NAD M51 and Mytek shockingly close to the MSB and directstream (in a real time a/b/c/d) shootout.

However, I am keeping an open mind and am intrigued by the BADA ref hype, so will try for myself if the game changer has arrived. If not it goes the way of my msb (Audiogon) and money back in college fund.
 

Orb

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Sep 8, 2010
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You are right - this perception is there. Most audiophiles subscribe to referred notion because in their experience it is statistically true. The exception is surely the ultra expensive high-end tweak zone, where very few people, including me, can say they have real experience. This area is often used as weapon by those who love to use the exceptions to illustrate their points.

BTW I would also love to have the opinion of a "skeptic" on what this Reference model does better after you listen to it in an adequate system. In the same way I would like to have your opinion about top tape versus top red book digital in Steve or Christian system.

As always, just MHO against YHO. :)

I just liked to say my IMHO trumps your MHO and also YHO (from Frantz) :D
Of course YMMV :)
Sorry for digressing just could not resist :)
Cheers
Orb
 

microstrip

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(...) Let's move this discussion to another thread but I believe the BADA Reference will be overlooked by more than one audiophile because of its "Price Class"...

Most probably it will be overlooked mainly because its very limited distribution and support, the price is not far from other top DACs. If I consider an expensive I want to listen to it. A phone call would bring a Vivaldi or Metronome or Trinity DAC demo in my listening room next week if I was seriously considering them. Unfortunately not for the BADA Reference.

Most audiophiles will ask - who are this BADA people?

As an aside I feel very happy that some of our WBF skeptics are interested in a product that according to the designer relies on obscure aspects of audio design, such as the use of special dielectrics and ceramic materials for the boards, expensive clocks, thick panels and even listening tests in the alignment. I hope someone asks Michael Ritter if the alignment test is carried in a DBT? ;)
 

stevebythebay

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Oct 21, 2012
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Seems that the folks at Berkeley are finally receiving the long awaited, and hard to properly machine, enclosures needed to build the Reference. They appear to be back ordered into many months, going forward, as well as back into the summer of 2014. Too much good press it would seem. As for dealers, they await product in the same queue as customers. BADA doesn't distinguish. So, there are numerous instances in which dealers are incapable of presenting the product at their brick and mortar shops. Many that have a Reference to show have loaned them out for customer test drive. Not unlike Spectral and other small producers, the guys at Berkeley are quite content to deliver product at whatever rate they are capable of, while ensuring the highest quality they can, yet still keeping the cost and profit margin within reason.

"Good things come to those who wait" seems appropriate, at least in this instance.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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This DAC got a lot of buzz a while back, and then went silent. Any normal audiophiles heard this DAC? Do these DACs actually exist or is this a rare case audio vapor-ware? :) These dacs are very hard to come by for some reason. I know many audiophiles like custom drivers (guilty here, myself), but are the Berkeley boys mining their own aluminum and silicon? :)

Also, very interesting marketing strategy for this DAC. High end audio, and especially computer audio, are very confusing. And when people are confused, they look to other factors such as price, scarcity, friend recommendation, or industry authority figures. So it’s worth checking out the marketing strategy for Berkeley and its competitors.

Some have claimed that Berkeley Ref is better than dCS. Yet you don’t see dcs dropping their prices. DCS’s strategy is to be the most expensive, implying it is the best. Scarcity and exclusivity is a very good marketing strategy. With the lack of beitzim on the part of reviewers to compare dCS to the upstarts, Dcs is not shaking in their boots because of Berkeley or anyone else.

Lampizator, on the other hand, has built up a quite a following from regular audiophiles who love their product. And in a confused and (seemingly purposefully) f*cked up situation such as computer audio, many folks look at a large number of passionate fans, who are just like themselves (vs. elites), and as a result, purchase the Lampizators. There is also a big social aspect to this hobby, and Lampizator is profiting from it. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the internet chatter and buzz, audiophiles can try a Lampizator in their system. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online… folks on the forums talk about these DACs because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. (The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”.) Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby, and Lampizator is a winner here.

Berkeley, on the other hand, has chosen a different route. Looking at their website, they seem to have sent their product to a couple of “experts” who have called the Berkeley Reference “The Best”. These elite experts did not bother comparing the Berkeley to any other product in their writings, so it seems like they are appealing to the dumbf*ck audiophile, who has no self-confidence, and assuring this loser audiophile to just purchase the product based on their recommendation. The Berkeley site has posted reviews by Robert Harley and some dude who calls himself the Computer Audiophile. Harley, apparently is a very good businessman. Harley’s taste runs from grossly coloured to severely analytical. Gotta please those advertisers and gear manufacturers! However, Harley can’t really be trusted by the audio fan. He reviewed Magico and called it “best”, but seems to have forgotten to test it properly with rock music. Even Valin, the man who MADE Magico into a powerhouse brand has admitted, after a DECADE of haranguing TAS readers that magico is the “best”, that magico is not for rock n’ roll. … So on Harley’s advice, busy, productive folks travel long miles, spend travel money, and rearrange their tight schedules to be sorely disappointed with Harley’s recommendations. Additionally, just a few months prior to his Berk Ref is “best” Review, Harley called dCS Vivaldi the “Best”. And why didn’t he publich the Berk Ref review first? Undoubtedly, some high rollers purchased their dCSs before he proclaimed that Berk Ref is the “best”. Yet in his Berkeley Reference review, he failed to compare the 2 products. How’s that for spitting that green/ yellow sticky stuff in the face of the audio fans?

The other industry elite who has called Berkeley the “BEST” is a computer geek who calls himself the Computer Audiophile. I am using the term geek in the most respectful way here, as in “geeks rule the world”. And this computer audiophile dude deserves a lot credit for being at the forefront of computer audio.

But whereas this dude is probably good at setting up servers and networks, where does he get the credibility to have a great ear to evaluate the musical performance that the piece of gear should deliver and put the listener in a state of flow? Most likely he has spent more time evaluating power supplies and Ethernet cables than he has listening to real, live music. Obviously, the gear manufacturers see him as an expert who can influence audiophiles, but his reviewing and writing skills, compared to the more talented reviewers, are more ...hmm…Beavus and Butthead rather than Hamlet.

… Er…Er.. this DAC got great details. He he he… loved that song… uh huh, uh huh, .. The songs on this DAC are so good, I jumped and now I gotta take a big dump. Uh huh huh :) :)

Just kidding, of course. As I mentioned, when so many reviewers are just good bullsh*itters who are serving as marketing reps for the manufacturers and are trading their long tales for a long term loan or discount on gear that suits their preferences, the Computer Audiophile dude has actually improved the lives of many in this hobby.

But the reality is that the computer geek’s work is pretty worthless to the audio fan, except to the clueless dumbf*ck audiophile who lacks self-confidence and needs reassurance from an “expert”. Without comparisons in his writings, if one were to remove the review titles or references to brands he is talking about, even he would not be able to tell apart PCM DAC A vs. PCM DAC B he wrote about. It’s all just abstract BS - "great bass", "great soundstage", etc. (Ditto for Harley.) Thus, the first step this dude should take is to realize that his proclamations of “best “ are insulting to the fan and, instead, should start comparing products he has been fortunate to receive from the manufacturers. No one cares what he thinks is best. Instead, audio fans care about if they will think it is good enough to spend their hard-earned money on. Despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. Their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? The consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their economic incentive. ( I don’t want to give the impression that ALL reviewers don’t care about the audio fans. Most are good guys, especially the ones contributing to this site. Also, the Stereophile guys usually do their best to throw in a comparison.)


Coming back to Berk Ref, supposedly, it is very good on PCM. And who doesn’t want to find a great deal, assuming it’s not just bogus claims? And it does have scarcity going for it along with insulting recommendations by a cripple of industry elites. But because of manufacturing issues with this product and seemingly purposeful evasion, confusion, and obfuscation by some of the industry elites who have heard it, and due to mis-aligned incentives between the reviews and fans, no one seems to know much about how good it is.

So what exactly are the causes behind the delays? Are they due to a faulty design or to something else?

And has anyone heard this DAC in their systems? Does it sound like music, or has the design obliterated the “soul of the music”? If you heard it, did you buy it or go with something else?
 

Elberoth

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amirm

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So what exactly are the causes behind the delays? Are they due to a faulty design or to something else?
I don't have data on this DAC but have lots of experience with the rest of products. Parts shortages. They pick single-sourced, one of a kind, often custom parts and then run into long and unexpected lead times. We always had long and unpredictable lead times for their products because of this issue.

Their reasoning for picking such parts was to get the exceptional quality (of the part) they were demanding. So hard to argue with it unless you are waiting to buy one :).
 

Al M.

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I don't have data on this DAC but have lots of experience with the rest of products. Parts shortages. They pick single-sourced, one of a kind, often custom parts and then run into long and unexpected lead times. We always had long and unpredictable lead times for their products because of this issue.

Their reasoning for picking such parts was to get the exceptional quality (of the part) they were demanding. So hard to argue with it unless you are waiting to buy one :).

Yes, it's the chassis that they get from somewhere else. It's molded from one piece, and they were not happy with some of the runs.
 

BlueFox

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Excuse the lack of details, but I remember reading in a side-note of the review that each DAC is hand-tuned to some sonic level, and this limits the production output. I don't know if I still have that issue of The Absolute Sound to verify this post.
 

amirm

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Excuse the lack of details, but I remember reading in a side-note of the review that each DAC is hand-tuned to some sonic level, and this limits the production output. I don't know if I still have that issue of The Absolute Sound to verify this post.
Yes, Michael told me the same thing. That they burn in each unit and then hand tune them. This was very much the case when they were in Pacific Microsonics where each Model 2 was subjected to this, taking multiple days to get them out. Worse yet, it involved Keith Johnson's ears which made it awfully hard to sell the hardware business after we acquired the company.
 

adyc

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But the reality is that the computer geek’s work is pretty worthless to the audio fan, except to the clueless dumbf*ck audiophile who lacks self-confidence and needs reassurance from an “expert”. Without comparisons in his writings, if one were to remove the review titles or references to brands he is talking about, even he would not be able to tell apart PCM DAC A vs. PCM DAC B he wrote about. It’s all just abstract BS - "great bass", "great soundstage", etc. (Ditto for Harley.) Thus, the first step this dude should take is to realize that his proclamations of “best “ are insulting to the fan and, instead, should start comparing products he has been fortunate to receive from the manufacturers.

Do you have some personal agenda against Chris? It is always his style that he does not want to compare DACs against each other. If you do not like it, that is fine. But please respect his writing style.

I have both Berkeley RS since June and Lampizator GG Balanced since August. I can tell you from the first impression that Berkeley RS sound is excellent. The sound is on par with GG with different sonic signature. I want to get myself more familiar with both DACs before post anything.

IMG_0218.jpg
 

microstrip

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Yes, Michael told me the same thing. That they burn in each unit and then hand tune them. This was very much the case when they were in Pacific Microsonics where each Model 2 was subjected to this, taking multiple days to get them out. Worse yet, it involved Keith Johnson's ears which made it awfully hard to sell the hardware business after we acquired the company.

Should we conclude that these great digital experts tune their DAC's to their personal preference, expecting it will match our preference, and not to the electrical neutrality?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Should we conclude that these great digital experts tune their DAC's to their personal preference, expecting it will match our preference, and not to the electrical neutrality?

pcm dacs at the top of the food chain are fragile complicated beasts to somehow tame the inherent pcm nasties.

Trinity also has a very elaborate approach to dac chip selection and implementation that restricts production to 3 dacs a month......or so their marketing/technical papers say.....
 

audio.bill

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Do you have some personal agenda against Chris? It is always his style that he does not want to compare DACs against each other. If you do not like it, that is fine. But please respect his writing style.

I have both Berkeley RS since June and Lampizator GG Balanced since August. I can tell you from the first impression that Berkeley RS sound is excellent. The sound is on par with GG with different sonic signature. I want to get myself more familiar with both DACs before post anything.
adyc - I'm looking forward to your comments on how these two excellent DACs compare, TIA for taking the time to share your impressions!
 

amirm

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Should we conclude that these great digital experts tune their DAC's to their personal preference, expecting it will match our preference, and not to the electrical neutrality?
I must confess I never asked them what they tune. Since lack of information has never stopped me before :D, let me say that I got the impression that much of it was accuracy adjustment, not some kind of dialing in colorations. After all their ADC/DACs were used by many recording engineers and would be hard to know who liked what.

Since you mentioned my ML DAC and there were two versions of that (with 360S being the hand tuned one), here is this little tidbit from stereophile review on some of their differences: http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/187/index.html#mUYrC7mywTb4mCqK.99

"Second, while both have dual 24-bit DACs (Burr-Brown PCM1704) in each channel, the No.360's output level matching is accomplished with high-tolerance Vishay potentiometers, while hand-calibrated bulk metal-foil resistors are mated (to a tolerance of ±0.0002%!) to each of the No.360S's DACs. "
 

Mike Lavigne

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I must confess I never asked them what they tune. Since lack of information has never stopped me before :D, let me say that I got the impression that much of it was accuracy adjustment, not some kind of dialing in colorations. After all their ADC/DACs were used by many recording engineers and would be hard to know who liked what.

Since you mentioned my ML DAC and there were two versions of that (with 360S being the hand tuned one), here is this little tidbit from stereophile review on some of their differences: http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/187/index.html#mUYrC7mywTb4mCqK.99

"Second, while both have dual 24-bit DACs (Burr-Brown PCM1704) in each channel, the No.360's output level matching is accomplished with high-tolerance Vishay potentiometers, while hand-calibrated bulk metal-foil resistors are mated (to a tolerance of ±0.0002%!) to each of the No.360S's DACs. "

in 1997-1999 I owned a Mark Levinson #37 transport and a #360S dac, replaced in 1999 by the much better sounding Linn CD-12.

I liked the 37/360S just fine. that was 16 years ago. in digital terms that was a long time ago and far away.

I will say that in terms of industrial design; the Mark Levinson gear from that era still sets the look and feel standard, bar none. those products sure don't look their age at all.
 

amirm

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in 1997-1999 I owned a Mark Levinson #37 transport and a #360S dac, replaced in 1999 by the much better sounding Linn CD-12.

I liked the 37/360S just fine. that was 16 years ago. in digital terms that was a long time ago and far away.

I will say that in terms of industrial design; the Mark Levinson gear from that era still sets the look and feel standard, bar none. those products sure don't look their age at all.
She is old but reference quality when fed with the Berkeley or even Audiophilleo USB to AES/SPDIF converters. As an example, a couple of years ago I thought I had found a problem with the Berkeley Alpha USB bridge. When I reported it to Michael (at Berkeley), his immediate question was, "what DAC you are using?" When I said it was the ML 360S, there was release of concern with, "oh, that is a good DAC; the problem should not be there." That problem was operator error by the way :eek:.

I have managed to improve the fidelity of all but one DAC when driving them with these USB bridges. If you are looking for DAC tweaks, it is the best place to look.

That said, yes, I am a frugal person and have spent so much time with this DAC to get serious work and pleasure done that I am likely blind to what the latest DACs are and do :).
 

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