Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

Mike Lavigne · Mar 17, 2018

Steve Williams said:
I totally agree as well. In fact yesterday I asked the same question of many members here. Suffice it to say if they stay they will be turned off.

actually; it works opposite of what you are saying. a speaker cone sitting in a room (in or out of a cabinet) is a passive radiator and will absorb certain frequencies. so you want to remove them as they act as absorbers (unless you test for it and prefer the effect).

OTOH when you power the cone it stiffens and is less likely to change the sound as it has resistance. so if you leave the subs in the room power them up but turn them down. they will then have minimal effect. for zero effect remove them.

it's possible that a heavy cone like a sub won't move much unpowered, but i'm getting into areas I don't know about. it could be a variable.

LL21 · Mar 17, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
actually; it works opposite of what you are saying. a speaker cone sitting in a room (in or out of a cabinet) is a passive radiator and will absorb certain frequencies. so you want to remove them as they act as absorbers (unless you test for it and prefer the effect).

OTOH when you power the cone it stiffens and is less likely to change the sound as it has resistance. so if you leave the subs in the room power them up but turn them down. they will then have minimal effect. for zero effect remove them.

it's possible that a heavy cone like a sub won't move much unpowered, but i'm getting into areas I don't know about. it could be a variable.

Exactly what Martin Colloms wrote about in his review of the X1 Grand Slamms and the surprising lack of bass...after doing many things, it came back with a vengeance. One of the things they did was power up the jukeboxes in the room which they felt were acting as a sort of absorber.

treitz3 · Mar 17, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
actually; it works opposite of what you are saying. a speaker cone sitting in a room (in or out of a cabinet) is a passive radiator and will absorb certain frequencies. so you want to remove them as they act as absorbers (unless you test for it and prefer the effect).

OTOH when you power the cone it stiffens and is less likely to change the sound as it has resistance. so if you leave the subs in the room power them up but turn them down. they will then have minimal effect. for zero effect remove them.

it's possible that a heavy cone like a sub won't move much unpowered, but i'm getting into areas I don't know about. it could be a variable.

Agreed Mike. Steve, if/when you remove them, play one song with them powered up but low. Then remove them and without adjusting anything, play the same song at the same level. The removal of a "box" this big (2 of them) *may* alter the end result as well. FWIW.

Tom

DaveyF · Mar 17, 2018

Perhaps further experimentation is the way to go here?? Maybe utilizing just one sub would be good, or maybe moving the subs to another part of the room, or modifying the subs ( or single sub) x-over and connection...many variables. Lots of fun dialing in subs and determining "if" they are in fact warranted; and what's the best sound ---with or without their contribution. Personally, I would be experimenting a little first, before putting them on the market. Just IMHO.

RBFC · Mar 17, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
actually; it works opposite of what you are saying. a speaker cone sitting in a room (in or out of a cabinet) is a passive radiator and will absorb certain frequencies. so you want to remove them as they act as absorbers (unless you test for it and prefer the effect).

OTOH when you power the cone it stiffens and is less likely to change the sound as it has resistance. so if you leave the subs in the room power them up but turn them down. they will then have minimal effect. for zero effect remove them.

it's possible that a heavy cone like a sub won't move much unpowered, but i'm getting into areas I don't know about. it could be a variable.

Mike, Quite logical & a good clarification! Although a speaker, when “off”, absorbs energy, would it not create some energy at the given frequency as it moves in response to the energy it is absorbing? I honestly don’t know about the magnitude of these effects, I suspect there are other room & sound amplitude factors that come into play.

Lee

Mike Lavigne · Mar 17, 2018

RBFC said:
Mike, Quite logical & a good clarification! Although a speaker, when “off”, absorbs energy, would it not create some energy at the given frequency as it moves in response to the energy it is absorbing? I honestly don’t know about the magnitude of these effects, I suspect there are other room & sound amplitude factors that come into play.

Lee

if you absorb musical energy at any frequency(s) it will adjust the tonality. whether that adjustment is audible is a question.....but there would be a change. it's not creating energy, it's changing/shifting the tonal character.....in degrees.

and our ears are sensitive to tonal irregularities. speaker cones are carefully designed to move air efficiently, therefore they will conversely absorb it efficiently too. minimal surface getting maximum effect. now if you load the cone somehow it will be stiff and it's absorption will be minimized.

and remember speaker cones are typically directed at the listening position, so it's effect is optimized positively or negatively. likely if Steve faced the subwoofers into the wall that would also be helpful if he wanted to leave them off.

Steve Williams · Mar 17, 2018

I appreciate everyone's input. The one thing I can say is if the subs stay in the room they will not be powered on again

RogerD · Mar 17, 2018

Happiness is perfecting your audio system...glad for you Steve.

treitz3 · Mar 17, 2018

Steve Williams said:
I appreciate everyone's input. The one thing I can say is if the subs stay in the room they will not be powered on again

Then get them out of the room Steve. They will absorb certain sound waves as well as affect the end result regardless of power on at low level or not. Move them out of the room completely and end any question that may linger in your head will be answered.

Tom

Hi-FiGuy · Mar 17, 2018

If they are not being used (on or off) they are sponges of the good stuff, they need to be removed, it will make a difference.
Do some research, much about it out there.

bonzo75 · Mar 18, 2018

Steve Williams said:
Dos Amigos Reunite In Southern California

So at the end of this big long post a big shoutout and thank you to DDK and Bonzo755 who made the suggestion years ago but thanks to me and my vanity it never got done until recent meeting of the Amigos. If I had only listened to you guys but you both owe yourself a followup listen now to hear the difference. This isn't subtle

Nice to hear, Steve, I remember preferring the subs off as well, and I also remember on the music I played you preferred the subs off too. Also, on the other joint sessions we had, we shared similar views. That said, and maybe a thing many won't like to hear, but a lot of audiophiles are defensive about their sound when they have some visitors. In fact, many automatically address positively the weaknesses they know the visitor will hear, kind of laying a ground rule to him not to mention that weakness. Yes I am stating they hear the weaknesses, they just reconcile to it later. I also find that many of my hosts mention something they had two or more years earlier that they moved on from, and I ask, did that thing not have such and such an issue? They say yes, but they did not realize it then. My interpretation of it is, they did, they just accepted it later. I am of course in the convenient position of not owning their system, so my point is all off us need to watch out for the own-system-bias that we all inherently have, and the faster we realize it like Steve did the faster we move on. And I hate to keep praising Mike, but I think one of the reason his system is so good is he quickly accepts what is wrong and takes feedback (whether jazdocs or whoever) and moves on from there.

spiritofmusic · Mar 18, 2018

Hey Ked, you wouldn’t be talking about me, would you? LOL
I’ll freely admit that despite being a fan of my Zus, I’ve had a tendency to defend them to the hilt, maybe overly glossing over where they are challenging.
Based on a real affinity to what they do well (their USP, so to speak), and potential promise.
Of course when you came away from listening to them at mine really not liking them, not getting what I consider to be excellent about them, and hearing their flaws exacerbated or synergised by my previous poor acoustic, absolutely telling me in no uncertain terms, I’ll freely admit it set my teeth on edge (as the Zus sound set your teeth on edge LOL).
Of course you’re vindicated in that my new room acoustics have made massive strides, since you always rightly claimed my old room was so poor.
But you may still remain extremely skeptical the Zus will sound any good.
So if you finally make the revisit to me, I’m not going to prepare the ground, not going to hype them, basically I’ll say diddly squat.
You can listen, and either have your previous low opinion cemented, or come away at least respecting what I’ve achieved w room acoustics and clean power, and maybe discover why I like the Zus so much.
I’m at a point in my hifi career that I feel I’m at a bit of a zenith, and am really not too bothered if visitors like the system. But at the same time, open minded enough that genuine suggestions will be taken on board. Only no room for Lampi or Mooks recommendations LOL.

spiritofmusic · Mar 18, 2018

Steve, just as you’re moving away from subs, I’ve finally sorted Zus subs/room integration issues at 30Hz and below, and am getting by far the best sound from my Zus alongside (because of?) total seamless lock on subs/bass/room relationship.

microstrip · Mar 18, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
actually; it works opposite of what you are saying. a speaker cone sitting in a room (in or out of a cabinet) is a passive radiator and will absorb certain frequencies. so you want to remove them as they act as absorbers (unless you test for it and prefer the effect).

OTOH when you power the cone it stiffens and is less likely to change the sound as it has resistance. so if you leave the subs in the room power them up but turn them down. they will then have minimal effect. for zero effect remove them.

it's possible that a heavy cone like a sub won't move much unpowered, but i'm getting into areas I don't know about. it could be a variable.

It is not easy to predict the action of the free subwoofer without taking measurements. Remember that a bass absorber in the corners can increase bass, particularly in medium sized rooms, if tuned to the frequencies that are causing nulls due to cancellation. Tuning it on just slightly changes and damps the resonance.

My advice is such situations - listen for a few weeks, return back with the changes and listen again. Most of the time we see changes immediately as improvements. But after the novelty effect vanishes we become more critical and wiser ...

bonzo75 · Mar 18, 2018

Marc, I didn't mention one, I mentioned most. Maybe if I had a system I would be the same

spiritofmusic · Mar 18, 2018

Ked, I’m egotistical as much as anyone, and that’s probably the downfall for most audiophiles re how they consider they’re own sound.
I guess the issue then is how criticisms are framed, if it’s just blanket criticisms or as constructive advice.
My various systems have been roundly slated by three guys including yourself, and in all three cases the diagnosis/advice proved to be spot on.
Interestingly two of these three have been to my new space and love the impvts I’ve wrought.
And next to visit is a guy who’s system I absolutely love and respect, I’ll be fascinated on his take. I’m at a point in my journey where I really feel I’ve addressed a lot of inherent flaws but am not stupid enough to think there isn’t scope for impvt.

bonzo75 · Mar 18, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, I’m egotistical as much as anyone, and that’s probably the downfall for most audiophiles re how they consider they’re own sound.
I guess the issue then is how criticisms are framed, if it’s just blanket criticisms or as constructive advice.
My various systems have been roundly slated by three guys including yourself, and in all three cases the diagnosis/advice proved to be spot on.
Interestingly two of these three have been to my new space and love the impvts I’ve wrought.
And next to visit is a guy who’s system I absolutely love and respect, I’ll be fascinated on his take. I’m at a point in my journey where I really feel I’ve addressed a lot of inherent flaws but am not stupid enough to think there isn’t scope for impvt.

Marc, you won't like me saying this, but here's the truth - the feedback I had I knew 6 guys who had been to your room including myself (and no, I am not going to share who those other 5 are). That aside, you have a post here from many years ago that you are lucky to have been blessed with a great room. Obviously in retrospect you realize that was wrong. It is possible that you haven't changed, or maybe you have. Maybe the three who visited you are being polite, or maybe truly honest. Keep in mind that your gear hasn't changed from the previous room to this. It is up to you to decide, to be critical with yourself or keep stating virtues of your system. I think, of the people I know, the only ones who will tell give you negative feedback on your face (apart from me, and I will do so only once I have taken shelter) is possibly Justin, and possibly Sablon. That said, Justin criticises almost everything unless it's an Apogee or it's 1k. And let's get back to Steve's thread, you and I can go on and on

PeterA · Mar 18, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Nice to hear, Steve, I remember preferring the subs off as well, and I also remember on the music I played you preferred the subs off too. Also, on the other joint sessions we had, we shared similar views. That said, and maybe a thing many won't like to hear, but a lot of audiophiles are defensive about their sound when they have some visitors. In fact, many automatically address positively the weaknesses they know the visitor will hear, kind of laying a ground rule to him not to mention that weakness. Yes I am stating they hear the weaknesses, they just reconcile to it later. I also find that many of my hosts mention something they had two or more years earlier that they moved on from, and I ask, did that thing not have such and such an issue? They say yes, but they did not realize it then. My interpretation of it is, they did, they just accepted it later. I am of course in the convenient position of not owning their system, so my point is all off us need to watch out for the own-system-bias that we all inherently have, and the faster we realize it like Steve did the faster we move on. And I hate to keep praising Mike, but I think one of the reason his system is so good is he quickly accepts what is wrong and takes feedback (whether jazdocs or whoever) and moves on from there.

Great post, Bonzo. And I think a very good observation about MikeL's ability to listen to criticism, get past it and learn from it to further his goal of achieving better sound. I think this is key and we would all be better served to follow it. Just yesterday one of my audio friends was over and he laughed when he told us how much crow he has been eating lately about some of his earlier audio notions. I have too been recently quite humbled by some of my earlier assumptions. We learn and grow, if we are willing.

spiritofmusic · Mar 18, 2018

Post deleted on request of Steve.

Steve Williams · Mar 18, 2018

Hi marc

could we keep the topic of my system blog on topic please

Today I have another international visitor for the next 5 days as Jadis arrives in a few hours from Manila after spending a week in San Francisco. Little does he know I will avail myself upon an extra pair of hands and get the Subs out of the sound room

Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

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