ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[microstrip]

Yes, you have stated that before, and I am not at all surprised. I followed Mike's system evolution for years on Audiogon and now here on WBF, and it is clear that years and much effort have gone into sorting it out. I strongly suspect that it shatters some strongly held audiophile beliefs, one of which is that SS is sterile sounding. But remember, not everyone feels that way about SS, especially Class A SS. I am a big supporter of "sweating the details". It is clear to me that Mike is as well.

Fortunately, DartZeel electronics are "tailored" - it is what John Atkinson calls this type of electronics in his recent Ypsilon Hyperion review measurements section. Herve Deletraz created a pattern of distortions that are not typical of solid state amplifiers but really sound great - it seems in 2012 JA was more tolerant than in 2018.

 

[bonzo75]

Like SETs then, so SETs win again

 

[BMCG]

Like SETs then, so SETs win again

Where do i send the rose coloured glasses ....?

 

[microstrip]

Like SETs then, so SETs win again

No, not like SETs. Just different from typical SS. Live is much more diverse than you think.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No, not like SETs. Just different from typical SS. Live is much more diverse than you think.

i don't have the technical chops to really get into amplifier design, but the darts break the mold of 'big' solid state in a number of ways, mostly with the relative simplicity of the signal path. and with darTZeel gear in general you hear music, and not a circuit topology type. been saying and writing that for years. i came to darTZeel from my love affair with the tubed 75 watt Tenor OTL's with a passive Placette volume control as my sonic direction. linear tubes and a preamp 'not there'. and the darts honored that sonic perspective and added lower noise, more frequency extension and more ability to control a speaker.

so my respect for tubes is part of my sonic DNA, and an SET most mimics the Tenor OTL's (and is even better at some things) from my perspective.

 

[bonzo75]

No, not like SETs. Just different from typical SS. Live is much more diverse than you think.

No it's not (not that it's not diverse, it's not that I don't think it's not diverse). And that was sarcasm in the upper post following a comment from the Ypsilon thread

 

[Ron Resnick]

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ystem-and-High-End-Philosophy-of-Mike-Lavigne

Please feel free to transfer (copy and repost) your comments about the article from this thread to the article's thread.

Thank you.

 

[microstrip]

No it's not (not that it's not diverse, it's not that I don't think it's not diverse). And that was sarcasm in the upper post following a comment from the Ypsilon thread

It would be nice if you could quote the posts you are commenting in your post ...

 

[bonzo75]

It would be nice if you could quote the posts you are commenting in your post ...

It was supposed to be sarcasm for the regular reader. Not meant to be a serious post so we can move on.

 

[KeithR]

If you never listened to the room playing decently, how can you be sure the fault was with the equipment and not with the room? I have seen treated rooms that created exactly the problems you refer.

+1

 

[853guy]

i don't have the technical chops to really get into amplifier design, but the darts break the mold of 'big' solid state in a number of ways, mostly with the relative simplicity of the signal path. and with darTZeel gear in general you hear music, and not a circuit topology type. been saying and writing that for years. i came to darTZeel from my love affair with the tubed 75 watt Tenor OTL's with a passive Placette volume control as my sonic direction. linear tubes and a preamp 'not there'. and the darts honored that sonic perspective and added lower noise, more frequency extension and more ability to control a speaker.

so my respect for tubes is part of my sonic DNA, and an SET most mimics the Tenor OTL's (and is even better at some things) from my perspective.

Hello Mike,

Of course, we're never not listening to an amplifier's topology, since that exact thing and it's implementation is mostly what determines what we hear. That of course should not be confused with how it sounds playing music. While topology/implementation vis-à-vis measurements give us insight into what an amplifier will do in a static situation (i.e., on a bench with steady state signals into "typical loads") all bets are off once we play a dynamic and continuously modulating signal through it when connected to a load that is also responding to and interacting with the amplifier in real time in an interdependent manner.

This point is one I feel like I've been saying for years, and is perhaps why many feel you cannot be right in your assessment since large multi-way ceramic semi-active towers paired with SS, Class A or Class AB tubes can therefore only ever sound like their constituent parts assessed independently. In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.

Best,

853guy

 

[Pb Blimp]

Hello Mike,

Of course, we're never not listening to an amplifier's topology, since that exact thing and it's implementation is mostly what determines what we hear. That of course should not be confused with how it sounds playing music. While topology/implementation vis-à-vis measurements give us insight into what an amplifier will do in a static situation (i.e., on a bench with steady state signals into "typical loads") all bets are off once we play a dynamic and continuously modulating signal through it when connected to a load that is also responding to and interacting with the amplifier in real time in an interdependent manner.

This point is one I feel like I've been saying for years, and is perhaps why many feel you cannot be right in your assessment since large multi-way ceramic semi-active towers paired with SS, Class A or Class AB tubes can therefore only ever sound like their constituent parts assessed independently. In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.

Best,

853guy

Not to speak for Mike but I think you are missing his point in saying he "cannot be right." To me its kinda like this:

Real Music = X

Your view: A+B+C+D = Y and because Y = X + Z; Y can not equal X.

Mike's view: A+B+C+D = Y but in his system Z approaches 0; so therefor Y approaches X.

Of course a system is a combination of the all of it's sub-components but that in isolation is not proof Z will is incapable of approaching zero when such components are combined in an optimized fashion. In theory, theory and practice are the same unless they are different. In practice they are different unless they are the same.

 

[853guy]

Not to speak for Mike but I think you are missing his point in saying he "cannot be right." To me its kinda like this:

Real Music = X

Your view: A+B+C+D = Y and because Y = X + Z; Y can not equal X.

Mike's view: A+B+C+D = Y but in his system Z approaches 0; so therefor Y approaches X.

Of course a system is a combination of the all of it's sub-components but that in isolation is not proof Z will is incapable of approaching zero when such components are combined in an optimized fashion. In theory, theory and practice are the same unless they are different. In practice they are different unless they are the same.

Hi Pb,

Did I say Mike cannot be right?

I said many have - their posts are easily found within this thread. As are mine. And you won't find any where I've said he cannot be right.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-darTZeel-458&p=497545&viewfull=1#post497545

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-darTZeel-458&p=498746&viewfull=1#post498746

All I've said in those posts and continue to say here is that when it comes to complex interdependent systems, we do ourselves and Mike a disservice to conflate first-order effects (how things look on paper) with second- and third-order effects (how things work in the real world and interact with one another creating results that cannot be predicted ahead of time).

In fact I went as far as to say "So, again, I fully agree - it’s completely contextual, and as you say, it all depends. If all things were indeed equal, we could judge things from afar as we sometimes seem want to do based on paradigms fostered solely in theory. But given our complex systems are (always) subject to a complex signal, we’re better off learning from the practitioners on the ground in the real world - like you. Thanks for sharing your experience."

I appreciate many want to speculate on how Mike's system therefore "must" sound with those various amps, but again, I am not one of them.

Best,

853guy

 

[Folsom]

And this amazing news came from where? I will not even comment the speculation that "32w could go any farther" with additional voltage gain. "Farther" into clipping?

Theoretically 72w peaks (LM3 figure) might take the MM7's to 122db peaks, that's fairly loud (32w is 119db potential). It is highly likely Mike runs out of gain before he hits a wall in wattage. I've seen this happen and it can seem counter intuitive but turning up source gain can stop an amp from running out of steam. Consider a Lamm preamp has 7.43 ± 2% or 17.43 ± 0.2dB gain, compared to slightly less that 0db gain of the DartZheel. This pretty easily can explain why say Steve never runs out of steam with sensitive but more difficult to drive speakers, and Mike gets to the point where he hears a flattened out sound once in awhile (aberration, not artifact, from his description).

You assume Mike hits clipping, that may not be the case at all. When you first hit clipping you may not hear it at all. Good amplifiers don't show you that they're clipping until they are really getting into it bad. Where as running out of gain can cause actual artifacts, and make things sound flat like they died midway through trying to be a sound - easy to hear.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Hi Pb,

Did I say Mike cannot be right?

I said many have - their posts are easily found within this thread. As are mine. And you won't find any where I've said he cannot be right.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-darTZeel-458&p=497545&viewfull=1#post497545

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-darTZeel-458&p=498746&viewfull=1#post498746

All I've said in those posts and continue to say here is that when it comes to complex interdependent systems, we do ourselves and Mike a disservice to conflate first-order effects (how things look on paper) with second- and third-order effects (how things work in the real world and interact with one another creating results that cannot be predicted ahead of time).

In fact I went as far as to say "So, again, I fully agree - it’s completely contextual, and as you say, it all depends. If all things were indeed equal, we could judge things from afar as we sometimes seem want to do based on paradigms fostered solely in theory. But given our complex systems are (always) subject to a complex signal, we’re better off learning from the practitioners on the ground in the real world - like you. Thanks for sharing your experience."

I appreciate many want to speculate on how Mike's system therefore "must" sound with those various amps, but again, I am not one of them.

Best,

853guy

Ahh, ok, I think we are in agreement. I was confused by the post I referenced, but put in the context of your earlier posts I better understand. Thanks for splaining.

 

[853guy]

Ahh, ok, I think we are in agreement. I was confused by the post I referenced, but put in the context of your earlier posts I better understand. Thanks for splaining.

Hi Pb,

No problem.

Be well,

853guy

 

[bonzo75]

Shouldn't that be

Pb,

Np

 

[analogsa]

compared to slightly less that 0db gain of the DartZheel.

Seriously, from where do you get the "slightly less that 0db gain of the DartZheel"?

 

[cjfrbw]

Theoretically 72w peaks (LM3 figure) might take the MM7's to 122db peaks, that's fairly loud (32w is 119db potential). It is highly likely Mike runs out of gain before he hits a wall in wattage. I've seen this happen and it can seem counter intuitive but turning up source gain can stop an amp from running out of steam. Consider a Lamm preamp has 7.43 ± 2% or 17.43 ± 0.2dB gain, compared to slightly less that 0db gain of the DartZheel. This pretty easily can explain why say Steve never runs out of steam with sensitive but more difficult to drive speakers, and Mike gets to the point where he hears a flattened out sound once in awhile (aberration, not artifact, from his description).

You assume Mike hits clipping, that may not be the case at all. When you first hit clipping you may not hear it at all. Good amplifiers don't show you that they're clipping until they are really getting into it bad. Where as running out of gain can cause actual artifacts, and make things sound flat like they died midway through trying to be a sound - easy to hear.

i have never heard Steve William's smaller room in SoCal. By all accounts, it may be even smaller in cubic feet than my present room.

However, I heard the ML3s only in his much larger room in Danville. I cant remember the dimensions, but I would guess the room was 20 feet by about 35 feet with a sloped ceiling, about the size of a three car garage if not larger.

Although with the previous Lamm ML2 on the Alexandrias, you could rarely hear a bit of compression on loud peaks, I never heard anything from the ML3s in that room that suggested that they didn't operate at full potential without a hint of compression or clipping.

The first sessions I heard were with an ARC preamp, later sessions with the multi chassis Lamm pre.

He played very loud and relatively complex material from R to R tapes, including the Pink Floyd DSOTM and The Wall. The Alexandrias were run full range with low frequency additive assist from the JL subs. Did I say it was LOUD! but excellent loud?

It's hard for me to believe that the issue with the ML3s with even more efficient speakers would be one of dynamic headroom, if that were the issue at all.

 

[PeterA]

No, not like SETs. Just different from typical SS. Live is much more diverse than you think.

Completely agree. Live sound falls within a pretty wide range of sounds, depending on many factors. However, when one hears it, he knows it. This is why many contend that there is no singular "absolute sound". There is a range of live sounds.