MSB Select II arrival

[Priaptor]

Select II + darTZeel = awesome.

it's possible you could even use the 'zeel' 50ohm interface directly from the Select II to the dart 108. I'm working with Vince about that. the whole MSB 'less is more' engineering approach where eliminating compromising circuitry is key to finding the music, exactly mirrors the darTZeel approach. both companies have very low noise, but no global feedback or strangling of the musical flow.

I can't say how the dart 108 compares to the MSB amps since I've not compared them directly; but perceptions from shows it's of that same sonic direction.

and yes; there were 2 upgrades to the 108. back in 2005 it went from 'A' to 'B' and it became more stable into loads and an added XLR input.

then 2009-2011 the SNCP upgrade made a huge difference in power and controlling speakers. almost any 108 is a 'B' and has had the SNCP upgrade.

Mike

As always thanks.

The DartZeel have always been of interest to me based on design philosophy but I never had reason to really consider until now.

The 50 Ohm interface is a DartZeel pre to amp interface "meant" for best interface of DartZeel products, correct? So Vince is asking the factory to try something to take advantage of that? That would be awesome?

To date, you haven't tried direct from the Select II to your dual mono DartZeel, correct?

We are on an interesting ride indeed. I continue to be blown away by Select II. I'm glad I heard about this upgrade in firmware. We should email Vince and have MSB let us know about such things.

Will try it tonight when I get home.

Howie

 

[asiufy]

Alex

Thanks for the insight. My speakers are indeed very efficient and very easy to drive and why Carl was using the Ref75 with them initially, which is what I was using, until I heard the superb GS150 which I still think is the best ARC product I have ever owned ( and I have owned a ton).

Now that I have sold my Ref10 and going direct and hearing just how awesome the Select II is direct I just got a bug to see how SS would compare. Have they made any changes to that DartZeel stereo amp since it's introduction. It would more than likely have the guts to drive the Nola Concert Grands. My "big" concern is synergy being driven direct by the Select II. You have most of the amps I am interested and I know the Wilsons very well so I am interested in your findings before I start

Thanks
Howie

You're not alone, the GS150 is the most impressive overall ARC product I've heard so far.

The 108 has had a few revisions, so if you can, I highly recommend a listen. It's still a favourite of mine, even after all this time since its introduction. If you play by its rules, it's a very rewarding amp!

I haven't tried the SELECT (or the REF) with the 108, but I did try with the CTH-8550 integrated (in bypass mode), and it was gorgeous! In fact, I think the first time I've heard the SELECT in, we had the darTZeel CTH-8550 in the system, and even the MSB guy liked what he heard


cheers,
alex

 

[Jeffy]

Mike the MSB must be something special because I have not seen you so excited about a new toy in awhile. I heard the MSB in their room two years ago at CES with YG acoustic speakers and the sound was fabulous. They played a high resolution file of a master tape I made of an original Decca of the planets. This is the first time I ever liked those speakers. Enjoy

 

[Jeffy]

If the MSB uses fuses for the AC, I would try rolling some you may be surprised.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

As always thanks.

The DartZeel have always been of interest to me based on design philosophy but I never had reason to really consider until now.

The 50 Ohm interface is a DartZeel pre to amp interface "meant" for best interface of DartZeel products, correct? So Vince is asking the factory to try something to take advantage of that? That would be awesome?

To date, you haven't tried direct from the Select II to your dual mono DartZeel, correct?

We are on an interesting ride indeed. I continue to be blown away by Select II. I'm glad I heard about this upgrade in firmware. We should email Vince and have MSB let us know about such things.

Will try it tonight when I get home.

Howie

hi Howie,

a few weeks back MSB suggested (after checking with their tech people) I try the my zeel cable using an adapter with the RCA output of the Select II into the zeel interface on the dart pre. but I could also try it direct to my amps. they thought it might 'better' the conventional RCA interface. I was gone and then I've been busy and not yet got around to it. maybe today i'll try it.

the cool thing about the Select II and the modularity is that it's a relatively reasonable thing for them to produce a 50 ohm 'zeel' interface module, which is technically superior to both RCA and XLR. but they wanted to know first whether there was a step up trying just a RCA <-> BNC adapter.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike the MSB must be something special because I have not seen you so excited about a new toy in awhile. I heard the MSB in their room two years ago at CES with YG acoustic speakers and the sound was fabulous. They played a high resolution file of a master tape I made of an original Decca of the planets. This is the first time I ever liked those speakers. Enjoy

Jeffy,

yes, the MSB Select II is something special and I am excited to listen to it every day. +1 on the 'fabulous'.

looking back I'd say that in a somewhat similar way that the Trinity Dac was also special, as it changed my world view on PCM. but it was not as special in it's performance, but also in it's much narrower focus. it was only PCM up to 24/192. and it's design culture was not set up to be upgradable. I know that they have out-boarded their power supply now to their 'golden' series....and there have been digital interface options. but the process for change is not part of the design approach.

whereas the Select II is (1) a better performer, (2) does all formats and all resolutions the best I've heard, and (3) it's modularity and 10 year warranty insures, not just infers, continual upgradability. not cheap, but hard to argue with the value delivery side.

and what it does for the music is what it's all about. all those future benefits mean little if it's not putting a smile on my face every day.

 

[Priaptor]

hi Howie,

a few weeks back Vince suggested (after checking with his tech people) I try the my zeel cable using an adapter with the RCA output of the Select II into the zeel interface on the dart pre. but I could also try it direct to my amps. they thought it might 'better' the conventional RCA interface. I was gone and then I've been busy and not yet got around to it. maybe today i'll try it.

the cool thing about the Select II and the modularity is that it's a relatively reasonable thing for them to produce a 50 ohm 'zeel' interface module, which is technically superior to both RCA and XLR. but they wanted to know first whether there was a step up trying just a RCA <-> BNC adapter.

Understand.

I will be interested in your findings.

SS amps are becoming of more interest to me. I'm hoping to get a local demo of the D'Agostino mono in the next few weeks to see how synergetic it is with Select II direct to it driving my Nola.

Thanks
Howie

 

[marty]

Hi Howie!

You have a monster amp right now, trust me, it's going to take *a lot* to sound better than that GS150. And, as far as I know/can hear, there's perfect synergy with the output of the MSB Ref DAC, going directly to it (sans preamp right now).

I don't know how efficient your speakers are, but you should add the stereo darTZeel (NHB-108) to your list as well. The D'Agostinos will literally light a fire under your speakers, and show you stuff you never thought they were capable Just got a pair of M400 yesterday, and from cold, the things lit up the YGs like you wouldn't believe it. Those are serious must-listens.

If the MSB can somehow match the drive of the D'Agostinos with the beauty of the GS150/darTZeel, and that's what I expect them to do, it should be fun


cheers,
alex

I love the discussion of visiting some uber SS amps such as those listed (DarT, D'Agostino etc.) However I wonder why there is no mention of Jeff Rowland's 925s? Seems like Rowland fell off the map, yet his amps have always been on the short list of SS amps that belie traditional sounding SS devices. This is also true for Gryphon amps, which have long- been Andy Payors references. I can understand the omission of Gryphons due to their lack of US presence in recent years (which will hopefully change soon thanks to Philip O'Hanlon), but Jeff Rowland is surely a contender here. No?

 

[asiufy]

Hi Marty,

I lost interest in the JR line when they came out with those Class D amps (and I guess several other people too). I understand they're back to regular A/B now, so maybe I should look into their stuff again... Thanks


cheers,
alex

 

[Kingsrule]

Isn't Rowland all class D now?

That might be the reason, plus there is like 1 dealer

 

[microstrip]

(...) the cool thing about the Select II and the modularity is that it's a relatively reasonable thing for them to produce a 50 ohm 'zeel' interface module, which is technically superior to both RCA and XLR. but they wanted to know first whether there was a step up trying just a RCA <-> BNC adapter.

I doubt that Herve will teach them how to design an optimized 50 ohm interface for Dartzeel. Designing a 50 ohm interface is a simple and well documented electrical affair, IMHO designing one with a sound signature that optimally matches a great sounding system is another story.

My experiences without preamplifier never managed to lasted for more than two weeks - the extra detail, layering and apparent drive were not enough to compensate for the missing easiness and more natural sound when returning to preamplifier. Probably I have not yet found the proper amplifier to do it!

 

[asiufy]

Francisco,

MSB's output modules are already constant impedance, like Hervé's And besides, unless I'm mistaken, the idea behind Zeel was that other manufacturers would adopt it as well (like CH did), since the preamps and integrateds all have Zeel inputs for sources.

As for going preamp-less, my guess is you haven't found the right DAC, not the right amp



cheers,
alex

 

[microstrip]

Francisco,

MSB's output modules are already constant impedance, like Hervé's And besides, unless I'm mistaken, the idea behind Zeel was that other manufacturers would adopt it as well (like CH did), since the preamps and integrateds all have Zeel inputs for sources.

As for going preamp-less, my guess is you haven't found the right DAC, not the right amp



cheers,
alex

Can I ask you what are you meaning with "constant impedance"? As far as I know - although I can be wrong - CH uses the 600 ohm balanced professional standard (300 ohm SE) , as several other companies, not 50 ohm.

This is Mike 's friendly thread about his great DAC, I will ignore your guess ...

 

[asiufy]

OK, no more joking, just facts!

CH Precision has implemented the Zeel connection in some (all?) of their products. And I know for a fact that Hervé will be more than happy to have other manufacturers employ the Zeel interface in their products too.

 

[Priaptor]

I love the discussion of visiting some uber SS amps such as those listed (DarT, D'Agostino etc.) However I wonder why there is no mention of Jeff Rowland's 925s? Seems like Rowland fell off the map, yet his amps have always been on the short list of SS amps that belie traditional sounding SS devices. This is also true for Gryphon amps, which have long- been Andy Payors references. I can understand the omission of Gryphons due to their lack of US presence in recent years (which will hopefully change soon thanks to Philip O'Hanlon), but Jeff Rowland is surely a contender here. No?

I concur with Alex. JR really helped me years ago in helping me design my listening room in my last house where my first system in there were all JR with Avalons and an Oracle turntable that sounded great. I haven't heard his new stuff or discussions from those I trust who make it their hobby/business to listen to the latest and greatest. I personally have no experience with Gryphon but have heard very good things about them.

For me I need "reference" points from people like Alex and Mike as my front end DAC is right now the key to driving my system and those guys have SS amps as a reference and Alex in particular had the tube amp I am currently using as well as the Select so at some point I need to limit choices.

 

[U47]

Charles King's King/Cello preamp is connected to the Dartzeel preamp with the zeel 50 ohm input in Mike's system. Charles consulted with Herve on the implementation and it seems to work a charm. The output impedance of the K/C is admirably low. It can probably drive a horn system directly without an amp

R

 

[microstrip]

Charles King's King/Cello preamp is connected to the Dartzeel preamp with the zeel 50 ohm input in Mike's system. Charles consulted with Herve on the implementation and it seems to work a charm. The output impedance of the K/C is admirably low. It can probably drive a horn system directly without an amp

R

Driving a preamplfier is not the same thing as driving the amplifier input, although the impedance is the same. My comment meant that I did not expect Herve to teach someone how to design an interface to bypass his preamplifier, emulating its drive properties.

 

[audio.bill]

Isn't Rowland all class D now?

That might be the reason, plus there is like 1 dealer

No, Jeff Rowland does not make exclusively Class D amps. He primarily uses his proprietary power factor corrected switched mode power supplies, but still offers some power amps (i.e. models 625S2 and 725) which use Class A/B output stages.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

just ordered the second power supply; called "Two Mono Powerbases". I should have it in-room by month end.

I've placed the order and paid for it. they build one case and two internal sets of circuits; then when that is all ready, I ship my single power supply to the factory in Watsonville, and they assemble the second Mono Powerbase and ship it back to me so there is a minimum turn around time. the big variable is anodizing the new case and how long that takes. got to be perfect.

I'm very excited to hear all the Select II can give, in my own system.

 

[Priaptor]

just ordered the second power supply; called "Two Mono Powerbases". I should have it in-room by month end.

I've placed the order and paid for it. they build one case and two internal sets of circuits; then when that is all ready, I ship my single power supply to the factory in Watsonville, and they assemble the second Mono Powerbase and ship it back to me so there is a minimum turn around time. the big variable is anodizing the new case and how long that takes. got to be perfect.

I'm very excited to hear all the Select II can give, in my own system.

LMAO. I knew it.

I will probably be doing the same thing. Was actually going to do it last week when I got home but got this bug up my rear about solid state amps and which way to proceed.

Last night pretty much answers my question. It was a revelatory experience. Everything absolutely perfect. It was my real first LONG session letting my GS150 warm up for an hour before listening. Decided to listen to some really big orchestral pieces and 11pm went to 5 in the morning. Just amazing.

So I'm likely joining the dual power base train as well and hopefully can do it while I'm away in MT.

Welcome to MSB mania!!

Howie