New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

[Joe Whip]

The first picture is of the current production model. That is what we have only in blue like one of the later pictures.

 

[ddk]

I wonder what the resale value of these cars are when they're tax payer subsidized to build and then heavily tax payer subsidized again to sell. What a great car! Wonder how Musk pulled it off so he can rake it in at both ends for a product that the market doesn't want.

david

 

[NorthStar]

What is the resale value of high-end DACs? ...High-end turntables?

 

[NorthStar]

The first picture is of the current production model. That is what we have only in blue like one of the later pictures.

Alright, this one then:

_____

* Extra:

 

[DaveC]

a cleaner world for everyone.

Sorry, if you think that you've been misinformed. I even made a bunch of posts but apparently that's not enough. I'll repeat what I said, if you think buying a Tesla is doing anything good for the planet, you're deluded.

Since apparently it's so difficult to get the relevant information, and easier to maintain your opinion based on how you feel, here's some real facts:

-If you use coal-fired power plants to produce the electricity, then all-electrics don’t even look that much better than a traditional vehicle in terms of greenhouse gases” (Wade, 2016)
-When the electric vehicles depend on coal they “are actually 17 percent to 27 percent worse than diesel or gas engines.” (Braun, 2013)

Car manufacturers spend a lot of time and money advertising the benefits of electric powered vehicles to consumers, but they are hiding the fact that the production of these batteries is potentially doing more harm than good. When considering incorporating lithium-ion batteries into projects, remember the production process and consider ways of minimizing environmental effects.

https://u.osu.edu/2367group3/environmental-concerns/lithium-ion-cell-production/

Effects of Mining Lithium

...The U.S Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) conducted a study on the materials and production of a lithium-ion battery. The study concluded that mining these chemicals can cause the following:

resource depletion
global warming
ecological toxicity (Kaiser, 2013)

Some chemicals used in lithium-ion battery production are very rare and exist in tiny quantities. Rare metals are mined in China by passing bags of dirt through several acid baths, leaving behind the rare materials. “Those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pull out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent-now contaminated with toxic chemicals-is dumped back into the environment” (Wade, 2016). Overall, almost every stage of the lithium mining process can lead to harmful environmental effects.

It's worth it to click on the link below to see a pic of a rare element mine...

https://u.osu.edu/2367group3/environmental-concerns/effects-of-mining-lithium/

And there's also a lot of materials in the magnets used in the motors that have a lot of environmental impact as well, as they use neodymium magnets:

http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/problems/environment.html


The facts are a Tesla is likely overall worse for the planet and worse for human beings vs a traditional car in terms of both greenhouse gasses and it's massively worse in terms of it's environmental impact and pollution. I studied how to evaluate similar technology by the guy who came up with the entire concept of EROEI, Energy Return On Energy Invested and wrote Thermodynamics textbooks. I understand not everyone has the same perspective and people don't have time to research every subject in the world, but be careful what beliefs you adapt. The concept of an electric car only works out if we have clean sources of electricity and better battery technology. It's a great concept that doesn't work with our current level of technology.

 

[NorthStar]

I wonder what the resale value of these cars are when they're tax payer subsidized to build and then heavily tax payer subsidized again to sell. What a great car! Wonder how Musk pulled it off so he can rake it in at both ends for a product that the market doesn't want.

david

 

[NorthStar]

"The facts are a Tesla is likely overall worse for the planet and worse for human beings vs a traditional car in terms of both greenhouse gasses and it's massively worse in terms of it's environmental impact and pollution. I studied how to evaluate similar technology by the guy who came up with the entire concept of EROEI, Energy Return On Energy Invested and wrote Thermodynamics textbooks. I understand not everyone has the same perspective and people don't have time to research every subject in the world, but be careful what beliefs you adapt. The concept of an electric car only works out if we have clean sources of electricity and better battery technology. It's a great concept that doesn't work with our current level of technology."

I have read your posts previously. Ok, if we compare everything today between gas and electric cars, which is which @ the end is the car of the future? ...Better for all of us.

Are we better off with pool transportation, electric buses and trains? ...Hydrogen? ...Transit metro systems?
What should we be driving on the highways of USA, Canada, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Dubai, Japan, France? ...Mercedes, Cadillacs, Ferraris, Toyotas or Teslas?

 

[ddk]

What is the resale value of high-end DACs? ...High-end turntables?

I know you like them Bob but cars and audio equipment have different market rules. By the way know any taxpayer subsidized high end companies?

david

 

[Joe Whip]

No because High end audio is a pimple on a you know what in terms of the overall economy.

 

[Joe Whip]

I get it guys. Some here don't like Tesla and/or electric cars in general. This thread is starting to turn into a digital vs. vinyl thread. No surprise there.

 

[DaveC]

I get it guys. Some here don't like Tesla and/or electric cars in general. This thread is starting to turn into a digital vs. vinyl thread. No surprise there.

Except this isn't subjective. It's about FACTS, and it's totally objective. There's no possible way you can make a case for Teslas being better for the environment vs an average gas powered car.

 

[Joe Whip]

Sure I can, no damn emissions. None. Once I put up the solar panels, the car has no carbon footprint. None. Better than any gas car I gave ever owned. Electric cars are the future or maybe hydrogen fuel cells. Not gas.

 

[ddk]

Except this isn't subjective. It's about FACTS, and it's totally objective. There's no possible way you can make a case for Teslas being better for the environment vs an average gas powered car.

+1 and to add to your comment Tesla could be costing us in more ways that we even know. The way Tesla is subsidized it makes it very difficult or almost impossible for anyone with better technologies to compete, that could be a very huge loss.

david

 

[ddk]

Sure I can, no damn emissions. None. Once I put up the solar panels, the car has no carbon footprint. None.

Things aren't built in a vacuum, it takes energy and resources to manufacture! There's also the life span of one these cars, you have to amortize that and the cost of manufacturing, installing and servicing these panels.

david

 

[Joe Whip]

You are aware the the tax subsides are not Tesla specific right? You can claim the exact same credit if you buy the Chevy Bolt. It does not effect anyone negatively that wants to build an electric car. Doesn't hurt anyone desiring to build a hydrogen car. If you can built one powered via sucking energy out of the quantum field, you will make a fortune and put everyone out of business.

 

[DaveC]

Things aren't built in a vacuum, it takes energy to manufacture!

david

Yup.

Also, in the links I provided you'll see "global warming" as a primary problem with rare element mining. Your lack of tailpipe emissions are only one little part of a much larger puzzle and CO2 isn't the only thing causing the "greenhouse effect". BTW, solar panels also use a bunch of materials whose production has very high environmental impacts, this needs to be figured into the equation.

You're never going to win a debate trying to defend Tesla as being a "greener" alternative, because it's not so clear. Even in Europe where there's less fossil fuel used for power, it's a huge stretch to say it's better than burning gas. The promise of eCars depends on tech we don't have yet.

 

[Joe Whip]

Things aren't built in a vacuum, it takes energy and resources to manufacture! There's also the life span of one these cars, you have to amortize that and the cost of manufacturing, installing and servicing these panels.

david

It takes energy to build any car. If I can charge my car via solar, it is better for the economy than any gas powered car.

 

[DaveC]

+1 and to add to your comment Tesla could be costing us in more ways that we even know. The way Tesla is subsidized it makes it very difficult or almost impossible for anyone with better technologies to compete, that could be a very huge loss.

david

One obvious loss is that many rare earth elements needed to manufacture electronics are getting very expensive, and their production is causing massive environmental impacts. The financial promotion costs taxpayers money for something that probably shouldn't really exist yet, all that energy could be going to something better.

 

[ddk]

It takes energy to build any car. If I can charge my car via solar, it is better for the economy than any gas powered car.

Other cars aren't making any claims to saving the planet nor are the taxpayer subsidized or given special status on the roads with HOV lane usage. If it's really good then it should sell by itself, it's not as if there's a shortage of expensive cars in the marketplace that are competing very well even when we're getting gouged by all kinds of us taxes to make them more expensive. This is what I resent not the tech.

david

 

[DaveyF]

Other cars aren't making any claims to saving the planet nor are the taxpayer subsidized or given special status on the roads with HOV lane usage. If it's really good then it should sell by itself, it's not as if there's a shortage of expensive cars in the marketplace that are competing very well even when we're getting gouged by all kinds of us taxes to make them more expensive. This is what I resent not the tech.

david

For a start up ( and that is exactly what Tesla was and perhaps still is) to compete with the 'BIG' boys is an incredibly difficult proposition in the automotive world. Many have tried before and failed, including several well thought after cars...can we say Tucker and maybe even the DeLorean. For Uncle Sam to assist a start up with bringing to the market new technology and a different design that portends well for the future of the automobile, is...IMHO a very positive thing.
Or perhaps you would prefer that Uncle Sam pour even more $$$ into the immense defense budget and build more warship/warplanes and other assorted weapons. I know where I would rather see the money spent!