High end Munich 2017

[amirm]

As anyone who has extensive experience with exhibiting knows, NO show is perfect.

They are not. For that reason then, please don't expect only glowing remarks about your efforts there. Allow some dissention and let it go past you.

The key word here is EXPERIENCE.

It is and what you created at AXPONA was a cold one. Take my experience at Volti which Al talked about. Had a bad seat, didn't like what I was hearing and was about to leave when the presenter asked if anyone wanted a cold drink. I said yes and a really cold one arrived with a sleeve around to keep my hands from freezing! By then the center seat opened and I sat there and had a wonderful EXPERIENCE.

While I received a personal reception from Leif the first time I went to your suite, the second time I and all the other people there had to fend for ourselves. This, despite me wearing my press pass. No one asked what wanted to hear, what format we wanted to hear, etc. Still, I sat there, tried to find an optimal seat for best EXPERIENCE but could not get there. More below.

What I’m reading in this thread from a vocal minority of “experts” is their opinions on what manufactures in general should do at shows and how in turn, their products should be perceived by audiences. This “Monday morning quarterbacking” is not exclusive to our hobby as my idiom illustrates.

So while everyone is entitled to an opinion, I’m sure no one here would dispute that some opinions are far less valuable than others depending on the situation

As for VSA’s performance at both AXPONA and Munich, I’m very good with it. And that’s after spending tens of thousands of our dollars on each show. In fact, I’m still blown away by the feedback from people whose opinions I hold in high regard. And they shared it publicly for all to benefit from. And there will be more to come from Munich I’m sure.

So if VSA products or our room’s performance at shows is not your “cup of tea,” I’m very OK with that too. Some people like Rocky Road ice cream so as you can see, there’s no accounting for taste

We don’t work to satisfy our detractors; only ourselves and the people who appreciate what we do and that philosophy has propelled us to our current position in the marketplace after 42 years of effort. As I said, I’m very satisfied with how we’re doing and thanks for your interest.

You have NO "detractors" here. All you have is Alex and I saying that our total EXPERIENCE as you put it, was not quite to our liking. Neither one of us has said anything negative about the products you manufacture, your company, etc. In my case, I had to cover some 400 audio suites, capture what they were playing, take notes, and write them up. Sometimes we arrive at a suite and everything makes us happy so we give big thumbs up. Sometimes that doesn't happen. When it doesn't it only means that our total EXPERIENCE, i.e. music, atmosphere, feeling, enjoyment, etc. was not to our liking as much as it was at another suite.

At previous shows, I highly admired your room. Despite what I consider totally unprofessional behavior by Leif toward Alex and I, I hope for another great experience at a future show. I don't let my personal feelings interfere with my obligation to membership for sharing what I truly EXPERIENCED.

My wish and hope for you is to not keep trying to change who we are or what we are, but think whether you can do something different yourself to improve the total performance and EXPERIENCE you bring to show attendees. That, you can control. Changing us, not so much.

And oh, let me say that your participation at forums like this highly raises your status in my mind. For that, I am much appreciative.

 

[Al M.]

And actually, visitors is not just what the show is for. It’s for dealers and distributors and potential dealers and distributors as well. Aesthetix’s Jim White said the reason they go to the show is because they get to have face time with their European dealer and distributor network, which I’d hazard a guess provides far more long-term benefit than appeasing the sensibilities of one or two audiophiles who think the show should be all about them.

You partially have a point here.

And unlike you (who did not attend), I did appreciate the efforts of every single manufacturer in having some skin in the game and showing their wares in conditions that most would agree are sub-optimal. Asking for the bar to be raised without having skin in the game would be obviating myself of the responsibility for my own well-being, and I personally prefer not to expect someone else to take responsibility for my happiness by asking them to increase their risk whilst mitigating my own.

I don't understand why you needlessly keep pushing a strawman. This is disappointing, 853guy. I did not speak about Munich specifically, but about shows in general. How many times do I need to emphasize that I clearly said in my first reply to Joe that I cannot judge the particular room in Munich because I wasn't there.

Visitors expect good sound, period? No, Al, you “expect good sound, period”. I do not.

I don't either. But people obviously do judge components by their sound at a show. That's just a fact. For instance, I cannot tell you the countless times that I have read show impressions where people complain about the lack of body with Magico speakers even though I have heard good or even great body from those speakers in diverse home settings. Same for Spectral electronics. And people take such impressions for how those components intrinsically sound, period. You want me to dig up forum posts on that? And that's just two examples.

I did read your previous comments. But I struggle to comprehend that although you acknowledge the problematic nature of shows and their sub-optimal conditions, you still feel manufacturers have “no right to complain”, despite acknowledging the very variables that most often contribute to their rooms sounding bad?

Because if there is bad sound, they should not complain when people say so. People don't care about "sympathy with the effort" or "giving the exhibitor a break". They do judge the sound, period. See above. So whining about these things makes no sense. Of course, when manufacturers need to resort to implying mental illness of high-end consumers, see here, they make themselves look doubly bad. Or when they imply that others have ulterior motives when criticizing.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
The key word here is EXPERIENCE.

What I’m reading in this thread from a vocal minority of “experts” is their opinions on what manufactures in general should do at shows and how in turn, their products should be perceived by audiences. This “Monday morning quarterbacking” is not exclusive to our hobby as my idiom illustrates.

So while everyone is entitled to an opinion, I’m sure no one here would dispute that some opinions are far less valuable than others depending on the situation (...)

It is what I often refer in WBF as "weighting factors" for opinions, each of us should develop and use its own. Although not strictly proportional to the size, cost or weight of the equipment of the "expert", most of the times I find that for me it is somewhat indirectly related to it ...

 

[joelavrencik]

Brass screws sound better... try it!

Industrial design is super-important for speakers in a living room and can easily disqualify a potential candidate in some situations. There are some very very poor industrial designs out there, I can't understand how the mfg'ers get away with it.

Hi Dave,

Which alloy.........always interested in something new........

 

[Al M.]

You have NO "detractors" here. All you have is Alex and I saying that our total EXPERIENCE as you put it, was not quite to our liking. Neither one of us has said anything negative about the products you manufacture, your company, etc.

Indeed. I cannot recall anyone ever having said on this thread anything negative about Von Schweikert products themselves.

 

[joelavrencik]

Indeed, there is no excuse for boring music at shows. Why can't exhibitors play some exciting, vivid, dynamic, challenging music? Why always the same old boring female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment? Or other examples of the same old audiophile standard fare? One other reason why the BorderPatrol room consistently fares well at shows is that they play exciting, dynamic music.

Note to exhibitors: if you choose inoffensive music to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody.

Just one example: the last few days I was listening to Jeff Beck 'Lve at Ronnie Scott's'. Totally electrifying music. Why not play something like that? Or what are you afraid of, folks?

This is thought-provoking.

I can only speak for myself. There’s a couple of things I look for in terms of music and a couple of things I avoid as much as possible……..admitting , of course, that my perception is colored by my taste…

Firstly, I try to never play anything I “like”. This is invariably a mistake, and perhaps you’re rightfully complaining about a few people who should, but don’t follow that rule. Manufacturers have a responsibility to you as a listener to pick the very best music for the system….no matter than prevailing room challenges etc..

I only try to play things that show off the strengths of the system. A singular piece of music (in my view) needs to be played in advance at the show, in the system before you walk in the door and pass a series of hurdles. The material must be musically accessible (understandable), have a challenging and interesting hook. And, the music should have an unexpected surprise buried somewhere in its presentation. I don’t care what the song is or who it is.

But, having said this, I do tend to carry the same bag of vinyl around with me. Sometimes, none of it gets played, because it doesn’t sound good, but that just means the system has issues. This is why, IMO, you should bring your music or ask for a song you have extended experience with. You should also ask for this “special” piece when you’re sitting in the sweet spot so you can hear it from the best vantage point.

As a listener, I think it’s good to hear “the same old thing over and over” in every system. I would encourage you to commit these experiences to memory. I do. I can tell you the very best systems I have ever heard based on the very small differences between musical details in the same song played over and over again from system to system to system……….and so can you. This is what a good critic does. You will elevate the game and that’s a good thing.

Good comment. Bravo!

 

[853guy]

I don't understand why you needlessly keep pushing a strawman. This is disappointing, 853guy. I did not speak about Munich specifically, but about shows in general. How many times do I need to emphasize that I clearly said in my first reply to Joe that I cannot judge the particular room in Munich because I wasn't there.

I don't either. But people obviously do judge components by their sound at a show. That's just a fact. For instance, I cannot tell you the countless times that I have read show impressions where people complain about the lack of body with Magico speakers even though I have heard good or even great body from those speakers in diverse home settings. Same for Spectral electronics. And people take such impressions for how those components intrinsically sound, period. You want me to dig up forum posts on that? And that's just two examples.

Because if there is bad sound, they should not complain when people say so. People don't care about "sympathy with the effort" or "giving the exhibitor a break". They do judge the sound, period. See above. So whining about these things makes no sense. Of course, when manufacturers need to resort to implying mental illness of high-end consumers, see here, they make themselves look doubly bad. Or when they imply that others have ulterior motives when criticizing.

Okay, Al, I'm done.

I went, you didn’t.

I’ve tried to post specifically about Munich, the topic of this particular thread, you’ve posted about everything but.

You’re content with making generalisations , I try to avoid doing so, especially in cases in which the non-linearity of variables leads to a lesser value of information.

You think manufacturers should not be shown sympathy, I try to appreciate my interests are almost never the only ones to consider, especially when the other has more skin in the game than I do.

You think anecdotes are facts, period, I think the utility value of any anecdote is a function of the non-linearity of its variables and whether those variables were under control of the one telling the story.

Is there anything left to say?

Probably not.

Again, I hope you make it to Munich next year. If you do, consider the offer of a beverage of your choice on me still valid.

Be well, Al.

853guy

 

[joelavrencik]

But neither of these guys heard the same system at Munich, right? THat is what i meant, one trusted guy (that doesn't mean JV to me at least) who was at both shows and heard the same system both places.

I'm not sure what you mean here. ........JV and GW were at both shows..........

 

[Al M.]

This is thought-provoking.

[...]

Good comment. Bravo!

Thank you, Joe! While my words may sometimes be harsh in the heat of the discussion, I do try to be constructive, and I am glad you appreciate the comments.

As a listener, I think it’s good to hear “the same old thing over and over” in every system. I would encourage you to commit these experiences to memory. I do. I can tell you the very best systems I have ever heard based on the very small differences between musical details in the same song played over and over again from system to system to system……….and so can you. This is what a good critic does. You will elevate the game and that’s a good thing.

You have a very good point here. That is obviously what I also do when evaluating changes in my own system, playing the same material, which I am intimately familiar with, over and over again. And I do it when listening to other people's systems in their home.

By the way, I have nothing per se against female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment . This can be outstanding music -- and it can be enjoyed as long as it is presented in the context of an overall varied palette of music.

 

[Al M.]

Is there anything left to say?

Probably not.

Yes, probably not.

Again, I hope you make it to Munich next year. If you do, consider the offer of a beverage of your choice on me still valid.

Thank you!

Be well, Al.

853guy

You too.

 

[joelavrencik]

Thank you, Joe! While my words may sometimes be harsh in the heat of the discussion, I do try to be constructive, and I am glad you appreciate the comments.



You have a very good point here. That is obviously what I also do when evaluating changes in my own system, playing the same material, which I am intimately familiar with, over and over again. And i do it when listening to other people's systems in their home.

By the way, I have nothing per se against female voices with minimal accompaniment . This can be outstanding music -- and it can be enjoyed as long as it is presented in the context of an overall varied palette of music.

I'm with you brother. Female vocals are an instrument (not to exclude other challenging instruments) and they will always expose a systems weakness straight away regardless the supporting instrumentation. You're responsibility (in my view) is to make sure the recording is top shelf. Go for it!

 

[amirm]

Hello Amir,

That would be sage and profound advice had your legacy of conduct on this and other forums not been belittling members whose world-view is different to yours by intimating their hearing is deficient simply because they refuse to jump through your ABX hoops to reinforce your own world-view in which you mistake absence of evidence for evidence of absence. Not to mention the lack of professionalism you displayed during your many, many attempts to undermine the credibility of the Blu-Ray platform during your tenure at Microsoft. While I appreciate the sentiment of your comment, the thousands of posts that stand as an online testament to conduct that undermines the credibility of that same sentiment seem to be only accumulating, and not in your favour.

853guy

No one punches you in the face after saying hello better than you 853 guy!

Not sure how you thought discussing my past career is relevant to this thread. The topic you picked though, Blu-ray, has incredible depth much of which is not unknown outside of a handful of key people in the industry. Read these two articles, first one by me: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/politics-of-format-making.1289/

And this one: https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/1/5670786/sony-earnings-adjustment-impairment-charges

See me in the morning.

P.S. Technology developed in my team is mandatory in Blu-ray. Every time a unit ships, someone at Microsoft sends me a thank you note for the royalties they receive (not really but they should! ).

 

[joelavrencik]

But neither of these guys heard the same system at Munich, right? THat is what i meant, one trusted guy (that doesn't mean JV to me at least) who was at both shows and heard the same system both places.

This is extremely thought provoking, if you were referring to the exact timing of their presence in the room. This, of course, was not time aligned (meaning: they weren't there in the same room at the time). At every show, there is an "invisible hand" that greatly affects the what the listener experiences; the electrical grid. Every system, oscillates in sympathy with "the grid". There's is an audible peak and valley controlling the sonics of every system that is directly traceable back to the electrical grid.

A reviewer (or you) will walk into a room and come out with an opinion that is shaped by a grid that is either sagging or tightening along its daily oscillating path. Systems are at their best when the grid is tightening......early morning, late evening. Anytime between is a crap shoot, but you shouldn't let that color your opinion because it's random. If you are a detail oriented listener who intends to publish your opinion, its probably best to go back to the rooms you decide to write about at different times during the day to validate your opinion........but that's your call.

 

[NorthStar]

How come I wasn't invited.

View attachment 32540

 

[Steve Williams]

I thought that was a picture for a Ricola commercial

 

[Al M.]

This is extremely thought provoking, if you were referring to the exact timing of their presence in the room. This, of course, was not time aligned (meaning: they weren't there in the same room at the time). At every show, there is an "invisible hand" that greatly affects the what the listener experiences; the electrical grid. Every system, oscillates in sympathy with "the grid". There's is an audible peak and valley controlling the sonics of every system that is directly traceable back to the electrical grid.

A reviewer (or you) will walk into a room and come out with an opinion that is shaped by a grid that is either sagging or tightening along its daily oscillating path. Systems are at their best when the grid is tightening......early morning, late evening. Anytime between is a crap shoot, but you shouldn't let that color your opinion because it's random. If you are a detail oriented listener who intends to publish your opinion, its probably best to go back to the rooms you decide to write about at different times during the day to validate your opinion........but that's your call.

Yes, even with a good power conditioner you are at the mercy of the quality of the grid, which varies during the day. I like to tell myself this isn't so, but alas the reality seems to be that it is -- even without the voltage read-out on my conditioner dipping or rising.

At shows the problem may be greatly exacerbated because all those power-hungry systems compete with one another from a source that is perhaps limiting, i.e., the overall power delivery to the venue.

 

[joelavrencik]

Yes, even with a good power conditioner you are at the mercy of the quality of the grid, which varies during the day. I like to tell myself this isn't so, but alas the reality seems to be that it is -- even without the voltage read-out on my conditioner dipping or rising.

At shows the problem may be greatly exacerbated because all those power-hungry systems compete with one another from a source that is perhaps limiting, i.e., the overall power delivery to the venue.

Right! So, JV and GW could have dissimilar opinions about the same system and both be right. ........here's where a critic's aural acuity matters and your understanding of the variables involved mitigate the irreconcilable differences.....

 

[DaveC]

Hi Dave,

Which alloy.........always interested in something new........

Ha, I haven't got that far but different screws do sound different and brass was better than steel when I tried it out.

 

[Al M.]

Ha, I haven't got that far but different screws do sound different and brass was better than steel when I tried it out.

My Reference 3A speakers also use soft brass screws:

http://www.reference3a.com/features.html

 

[DaveC]

Great thread, and especially relevant to me as I wanted to show my new speaker at RMAF but likely will not as a suitable room is not available. They are moderately large speakers with a 15" woofer cabinet and a ~2ft diameter horn. I just don't think it's worth the risk to try.

My thoughts are the truth of getting good show sound is somewhere in the middle of this discussion... Al is right and so is 853, it's just a matter of degree, and the fact is room issues matter a lot if they detract from the experience. And not just because of personal values, but because some people can't differentiate the sound of the system from the sound of the room and you'll get plenty of opinions that the gear in the room just sounds bad. It's not fair, but it's what happens in real life, I don't have to like it but I have to accept it as my reality or make some potentially costly mistakes. So personally I can't accept showing in a room where the experience of my system will be significantly diminished. I at least need a fighting chance!

On power, good conditioners can make dirty AC at shows sound at least acceptable, the audible artifacts will be attenuated far enough that you can get good results. I've heard it happen personally. But maybe in other shows the power is even worse, although it would be hard to imagine much worse.

Also, show sound has improved massively over the years. When RMAF first started there was a lot of bad sound, both due to bad sounding gear and incompetent set-up. This has changed by a really huge degree over the years. Sure, it's never going be as good as possible but it's gotten a lot better and gear is more uniformly high-performing too.