My 2 channel experiment

[LL21]

Give it a try....understand that Troy wants you to use their cables...the're in business. In my experience....this noise thing tends to be almost a bottomless pit. The only way you can be sure is to experiment,but that's up to you. I originally started with 12 awg and now use 2 awg and have used 1 awg and double strap at that.....it has never failed to improve the sound quality in every facet.

Very consistent with the fact that everyone has said the better, upgraded cables are better for both Tripoint and Entreq...thanks!

 

[LL21]

So the extra 20kg of weight arrived (next day by Amazon...remarkable since it was free). have placed it carefully on top of the final 2 Artesania dampers...so 5 Artesania dampers (28lbs), 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers on top of 3 of them...and then evenly distributed 60kg (132 lbs) of weight on top of these 5...for a total of 160lbs.

This Velodyne mass damping is now 'done', and will begin listening this week/weekend.

 

[microstrip]

You have a Troy....good. You can easily connect that Vel...by maybe intersecting the Vel cable to a Troy cable or a sink connection. Or you can have a cable made up....not hard to do. It needs to be copper only...either stranded or woven but it must a low enough resistance equal to 1 or 2 awg

IMHO the relevant parameter for grounding is cable impedance, that is much more complex than the simple resistance. Can I ask why do you consider that the cable must me made of copper?

 

[RogerD]

IMHO the relevant parameter for grounding is cable impedance, that is much more complex than the simple resistance. Can I ask why do you consider that the cable must me made of copper?

Well you can make it out of silver,but it is a waste of money. There is NO audio signal in this circuit,just EMI hash. While silver may be a better conductor and therefore remove more EMI,a much better solution is increase the size of the copper lead. All the Troy does is create a separate pathway back to ground....amazingly simple solution,but the pathway is not large enough.

 

[RogerD]

So the extra 20kg of weight arrived (next day by Amazon...remarkable since it was free). have placed it carefully on top of the final 2 Artesania dampers...so 5 Artesania dampers (28lbs), 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers on top of 3 of them...and then evenly distributed 60kg (132 lbs) of weight on top of these 5...for a total of 160lbs.

This Velodyne mass damping is now 'done', and will begin listening this week/weekend.

My Vel right now stands @ 90lbs,but I will add 30+ lbs soon. I know you'll laugh....but my 1200 pound dual sub doesn't vibrate or resonate a bit.....

 

[microstrip]

Well you can make it out of silver,but it is a waste of money. There is NO audio signal in this circuit,just EMI hash. While silver may be a better conductor and therefore remove more EMI,a much better solution is increase the size of the copper lead. All the Troy does is create a separate pathway back to ground....amazingly simple solution,but the pathway is not large enough.

As you say, these devices work up to very high frequencies - it is why they should be tuned, use special wire arrangements and probably use materials other than copper. Just increasing size will decrease impedance at DC (just resistance) and audio frequencies - but not significantly at very high frequencies.

BTW, do you know how the Tripoint works and how it is built? I would like to know something technical and specific about these devices, but manufacturers and designers do not give us any solid hint!

 

[RogerD]

As you say, these devices work up to very high frequencies - it is why they should be tuned, use special wire arrangements and probably use materials other than copper. Just increasing size will decrease impedance at DC (just resistance) and audio frequencies - but not significantly at very high frequencies.

BTW, do you know how the Tripoint works and how it is built? I would like to know something technical and specific about these devices, but manufacturers and designers do not give us any solid hint!

Why would you not use copper exclusively for noise removal. Once the noise is transferred out of the component it is gone. This idea the audio signal is somehow circuited back through the Troy is wrong.

A Troy is a audiophile aesthetically convenient device that is actually a star ground circuit. If you rack mount equipment and strap each one and then strap the rack to earth ground,it is the same principle. The Troy uses a large heavy sink ,which is like the rack. The troy use straps from the equipment to the sink and then a dummy connector that only uses the ground pin. Same principle as the rack mount except it far nicer looking.

I use my preamp for the sink....just a metal enclosure that is tied to earth ground with the IEC connector and PC.

 

[YashN]

A Troy is a audiophile aesthetically convenient device that is actually a star ground circuit. If you rack mount equipment and strap each one and then strap the rack to earth ground,it is the same principle. The Troy uses a large heavy sink ,which is like the rack. The troy use straps from the equipment to the sink and then a dummy connector that only uses the ground pin. Same principle as the rack mount except it far nicer looking.

You'll have to engineer additional features into your star ground to reach what's in a Troy though.

 

[RogerD]

You'll have to engineer additional features into your star ground to reach what's in a Troy though.

This principle is older then you or me....All this fluff is just a way to justify a audiophile price. I hear it every day and I still say that the Troy pathway is to small and whatever they use in the sink doesn't matter. YMMV IMHO

Again I'll state....once you pull the EMI away from the component....it is gone.

Btw you can remove noise two ways by better grounding design in IC's or by using a star ground circuit. In my system I use both. But a real adequate pathway of the ground circuit will negate the IC ground limitations.

 

[LL21]

My Vel right now stands @ 90lbs,but I will add 30+ lbs soon. I know you'll laugh....but my 1200 pound dual sub doesn't vibrate or resonate a bit.....

Fantastic! 1200lbs! Whew!

 

[microstrip]

This principle is older then you or me....All this fluff is just a way to justify a audiophile price. I hear it every day and I still say that the Troy pathway is to small and whatever they use in the sink doesn't matter. YMMV IMHO

Again I'll state....once you pull the EMI away from the component....it is gone.

Btw you can remove noise two ways by better grounding design in IC's or by using a star ground circuit. In my system I use both. But a real adequate pathway of the ground circuit will negate the IC ground limitations.

I think you are misrepresenting the Tripoint Troy - I hope that people who know it better than me can comment on it.

You refer to "pull the EMI away from the component". What frequency bandwidth are you addressing in this sentence?

 

[microstrip]

Why would you not use copper exclusively for noise removal. Once the noise is transferred out of the component it is gone. This idea the audio signal is somehow circuited back through the Troy is wrong.(...)

No one is telling that audio signals go through the Tripoint - we are addressing electrical noise. And as soon as you enter the RF zone silver has a different behavior than copper due to skin effect. It is why many designers silver plate the cooper wires used in braids or shields.

 

[RogerD]

I think you are misrepresenting the Tripoint Troy - I hope that people who know it better than me can comment on it.

You refer to "pull the EMI away from the component". What frequency bandwidth are you addressing in this sentence?

Any shielded woven or stranded copper wire will function as a pathway.

If the Troy's purpose is to reduce EMI then it is a star circuit grounding device.

 

[microstrip]

Any shielded woven or stranded copper wire will function as a pathway.

If the Troy's purpose is to reduce EMI then it is a star circuit grounding device.

Sorry for my insistence, can you tell us what is the bandwidth you are addressing in your comments? IMHO this subject cannot be addressed without quantification.

 

[RogerD]

Sorry for my insistence, can you tell us what is the bandwidth you are addressing in your comments? IMHO this subject cannot be addressed without quantification.

I'll give this response as a answer....but it still is not relevant to star grounding,except the ability to create a secondary pathway for noise removal. There is no hocus pocus here....just new ways to fulfil a audiophiles needs.

Another source of noise is Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Whenever electricity, i.e., an audio signal, passes through a wire, it produces inductance that creates an electromagnetic field. Because EMI manifests itself at a high frequency, it is commonly believed not to interfere with the audible range of frequencies. However, all frequencies demonstrate harmonic structures. Even if the cause of EMI is outside the audible range, the upper and lower harmonics of a given frequency often present themselves within the audible range. At the very least, EMI causes degradation of audio frequencies.

http://www.nbscables.com/info/why.html

 

[RogerD]

No one is telling that audio signals go through the Tripoint - we are addressing electrical noise. And as soon as you enter the RF zone silver has a different behavior than copper due to skin effect. It is why many designers silver plate the cooper wires used in braids or shields.

The concept of creating a large enough pathway for noise removal has absolutely nothing to do whether you use silver or not. Copper is an adequate conductor for this purpose. I have experimented for many years and a large enough pathway has a very profound effect on the quality of sound reproduction on every level. Can silver benefit sound quality yes....but not in a cable that carries no signal...even if it does...it's a waste of good silver.

Anyway this can be argued for the sake of argument....but has no positive input.

 

[microstrip]

I'll give this response as a answer....but it still is not relevant to star grounding,except the ability to create a secondary pathway for noise removal. There is no hocus pocus here....just new ways to fulfil a audiophiles needs.



http://www.nbscables.com/info/why.html

Bandwidth and noise spectra answers come in Hz, MHz or GHz. You are just referring general known facts without any quantification. Curious that your quoted text refers to inductance, something fundamental that you seem to forget in this subject, in incorrect terms - inductance is an intrinsic property of conductors, it is not produced by electricity! I suggest that next time you quote from Wikipedia or text books, not from cable manufacturer sites.

Ralph Morrison was very clear in his book - Grounding and Shielding: Circuits and Interference : "A straight line on a diagram may be a very complex path in a circuit". A star ground is much more than a few lines of thick copper.

I do not have a firm opinion or experience on grounding devices - my objection was to unfair comments made about known devices without completely understanding them. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

 

[RogerD]

Bandwidth and noise spectra answers come in Hz, MHz or GHz. You are just referring general known facts without any quantification. Curious that your quoted text refers to inductance, something fundamental that you seem to forget in this subject, in incorrect terms - inductance is an intrinsic property of conductors, it is not produced by electricity! I suggest that next time you quote from Wikipedia or text books, not from cable manufacturer sites.

Ralph Morrison was very clear in his book - Grounding and Shielding: Circuits and Interference : "A straight line on a diagram may be a very complex path in a circuit". A star ground is much more than a few lines of thick copper.

I do not have a firm opinion or experience on grounding devices - my objection was to unfair comments made about known devices without completely understanding them. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

You guys crack me up!

 

[YashN]

This principle is older then you or me....All this fluff is just a way to justify a audiophile price. I hear it every day and I still say that the Troy pathway is to small and whatever they use in the sink doesn't matter. YMMV IMHO

Again I'll state....once you pull the EMI away from the component....it is gone.

Btw you can remove noise two ways by better grounding design in IC's or by using a star ground circuit. In my system I use both. But a real adequate pathway of the ground circuit will negate the IC ground limitations.

You're still missing an essential part of the Troy though.

This fact isn't changed at all by the 'principle being older than you and me'.

 

[LL21]

My Vel right now stands @ 90lbs,but I will add 30+ lbs soon. I know you'll laugh....but my 1200 pound dual sub doesn't vibrate or resonate a bit.....

FWIW, I have gone thru the test soundtracks and movie scenes, and I am definitely leaving the sub 1 notch higher on the volume level...with that extra bit of rumble gone and the tightness of the bass being very well defined, the added oomf in volume is 'perfectly balanced' for me.

I will say, I intuitively felt that 160lbs spread across the 5 Artesania Elastomer+Aluminum dampers was about right. Looking at the sub without the weights on top, i 'knew' adding one plate (ie, if you use gym weights, then the 45lb plate) was just going to rattle around on top. Two plates and a 15lb plate would be better but not 'dead dead dead'. But adding 3 plates plus a 25lb plate is that 'truly dead' kind of mass that (as far as i can perceive at the moment after 24 hours) really seems to allow the Velodyne to just move the cone without rattling/moving the cabinet structure.

With a single big 18" cone (and without an opposite firing 18" cone like in the Krell Master Ref, Paradigm Sub 2 or the Magico Q Subs), there will always be a physical movement at some level, but now it is so slight that even with oceans and explosions the 4 picture frames on top of the sub did not move even 1 cm. I know that Magico advertises a glass of water on top at full excursion wont even ripple (i may give that a shot)...but at $20K-30K+ for one of these, I am perfectly happy with the big Velodyne, 5 Artesania plates/HRS Couplers and 160lbs of polished chrome/brass free weights.

I think 160lbs with these elastomers interfacing directly with the top of the Velodyne makes this fun project 'done'. Fortunately, the Auralex Gramma Isolation platform underneath the sub takes 300lbs...which is now EXACTLY what the Velodyne plus mass dampers weight...299.5lbs!