yes...definitely a work out! When the 2 Artesania plates arrive, i might even try to re-look at the calibration for the Velodyne. May open up the Velodyne below 15hz where currently we have cut it off quite steeply.
My 2 channel experiment
- Thread starter RogerD
- Start date
yes...definitely a work out! When the 2 Artesania plates arrive, i might even try to re-look at the calibration for the Velodyne. May open up the Velodyne below 15hz where currently we have cut it off quite steeply.
Hi Roger,
So we opened up the Velodyne below 15hz for music. Specifically, the cutoff was decreased from 24db slope to 12db...yes, there was definitely more, but I think the room did not handle it as cleanly as I would have hoped, so we have put it back to 24db rolloff below 15hz. I will open it up below 15hz for movies and see what happens...
CORRECTION: Hi Roger,
I realized there is an 'in between' setting of 18db rolloff, and we have settled on this. Essentially, the snap of the bass is more delineated at 24db slope, and with 12db obviously you hear less of the snap as more signal comes in underneath it which causes you to listen to a bigger bass signal with more than just snap. My observation is that perhaps because the sub-15hz part of the signal is possibly not as flat as i would like, while lowering the slope allowed the system deep bass to seem more 'full/rounded/natural'...it also seemed a little 'wooly' for my taste.
However, upon listening to 12db rolloff vs 24db rolloff, it was also clear that beneath the snap, the steep rolloff may have been artificially truncating the signal. Once we went to 18db slope, that natural rolloff/rounded element filled in again below the snap (which we can also again hear and enjoy with excellent delineation), but without the teeny bit of extra/uncontrolled rumble which detracted from the snap. And it feels more natural/fuller.
Very subtle and given how these rolloffs work, i would imagine my observations are not at exactly the 15hz signal but 'around that entire range' both plus and minus. In any event, i have now put away all the controls/manuals, etc and will live with it for a while and see.
I also have set the movie setting for the Velodyne at 18db rolloff below 15hz (when i watched Star Trek, i noticed that when the Enterprise warps, the deep rumble was not quite as deep, impressive and propulsive as i had recalled from our other room)...so I will see what happens next time we watch a few action flicks, particularly Star Trek.
Will update if anything changes or if i find i continue to learn more about what this setting change has done to other tracks. Hope that is helpful.
Last edited:
Lloyd, I came across this thread after doing a search....
Quote:
I currently own a Velodyne HGS-18, but am concerned that I am not CERTAIN as to what my settings on the sub should be to get the maximum impact from it for my system. My mains are big Polk SDA-2.3's, my centers (front and rear) Polk CS350's, and my surrounds Polk Fx-500i. I'm running a Yamaha RX-V1 with the all of the speakers set to "Large", and with the subwoofer set to "Both", meaning (I believe) that the Low Frequency Effects are sent to both the mains (which can go pretty low) and the HGS-18. My thinking behind doing this is that the Polks can go low enough that I should have the HGS-18 just emphasizing the very bottom end (40Hz and below)--and I THINK that if I set up the Yamaha so that the LFE channel goes exclusively to the HGS-18, I'll lose out on anything from 90Hz to 40Hz with my current settings (my current settings are: High Pass Crossover: 80Hz; Low Pass Crossover: 40Hz; Subsonic Filter: 15Hz; Log Volume Level: about halfway, with electronic volume control to adjust for different sources.) Anyway, I'm not exactly sure that I am setting this up optimally, and I would LOVE to hear your opinion and advice as to how best to set this up. Also, because I'm not in the know, could you explain to me like I'm a three-year-old what the High Pass Crossover, Low Pass Crossover, and Subsonic Filter selections are meant to control and how they interact? (I have a vague understanding, but not enough to feel confident that I am setting this thing up properly...)
Hi Chad,
Let's start with the crossovers. Since we're bass kind of guys, we'll start at the bottom with the subsonic filter. Basically, this is the point at which the sub will begin to roll off the lowest frequencies it plays. So, if you have it set to 15 Hz, the electronics will, starting at 15 Hz and heading downward in frequency, play those frequencies gradually softer (how gradually depends on the slope of the crossover). So, 14 Hz will play a little software then 15Hz, 13 softer than 14, and so on. Depending on your musical/theatrical tastes, you may want to raise this a bit since having the sub not play the deepest frequencies frees up amp headroom to play higher frequencies louder, and sometimes there is noise down at those frequencies that is unwanted. Of course, for the HGS-18 we set it at a default of 20 since we think that's the best setting for most applications, and your HGS-18 has little trouble playing those frequencies accurately.
The low pass crossover pertains to how high the sub plays. This defaults to 80 Hz, and the rolloff goes upwards. So, 81 Hz will play a little softer than 80 Hz, and so on depending on the slope of the crossover. You want the sub pretty much silent by 120 Hz, since that is the frequency at which the bass can become directional and expose the location of your sub. You have it set relatively low at 40 Hz, so the woofer is in fact doing little at, say, 60 Hz and above.
The high pass crossover pertains to your main speakers. This dictates how low the mains will play. A high pass crossover set at 80 causes the main speakers to play a little softer at 79 Hz and so on, again depending on the slope.
All the crossovers are very important since they dictate the relationship between the sub and the main speakers.
Now let's talk about your Polks. Whatever anyone tells you about this is their opinion, and you need to experiment to get your system sounding good to you.
First of all, even though your Polks are pretty "big," I would still set the setting on the Yamaha to "small", and I would change the setting that is currently on"both" to "sub only" or however it's labeled. This is because the HGS-18 will play the mid-bass frequencies louder and cleaner than your Polks, since it has lots of power (1250 watts dedicated to the bass), and a servo to keep things clean and tight. I would then run the low pass crossover on the HGS-18 up to 80 or so and adjust for taste.
You can try variations on this, but I would definitely give the sub more to do in the 40 - 80 Hz range. I believe that your whole system will benefit.
Hope this helps,
Bruce
.
Bruce Hall
Velodyne Acoustics
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...304306-offical-velodyne-support-thread-2.html
I have my settings at the lowest variables. On mine it seems the volume effects the bass quality the most. Right now it is pretty much seamless and because I have a L & R sub setup with the big sub crossed at 40hz and the Vel at 80,the Vel volume needs to be spot on or it becomes unbalanced. I need to study this and then experiment a little. I'll post later....thanks Lloyd. P.S. the bass is really articulate as the Virgil Fox recording has a bass signature that I have never heard before...real definition.
And I'll just add that when I put my electronic crossover in my ground loop,it reset the entire system. This is not uncommon in my experience but why with the crossover is kind of strange. When I say "reset" I mean that the soundstage collapsed totally. I happened to being playing the soundtrack from Lawrence of Arabia and the big drums went from a 'normal" reproduction to a hardly audible,but they were still there. I sat there for about 3 hours playing this same recording and listened as the soundstage begin to open up. I would guess it took about 10 hours or more.The result was a much more delineated bass and much larger in image. I've got a lot of things going on sometimes,but now I think the system is stabilised. I find this grounding fascinating.
Last edited:
Wow...thanks Bruce! Interesting reading. I agree that the volume makes a big difference and the system sound overall is very sensitive to this. In fact, i have sometimes found i wish i had another volume level in between...specifically, sometimes i find one notch up is too high and one notch down is too low. in our current setup, i have not found that to be the case , and one notch higher is clearly a bit too much.
As a bass freak, i find that if i am torn between one notch up and one notch down, i start with one notch down...and if over a week or so, i keep turning the overall system volume up, then i know intuitively i am looking for that extra notch up to fill in the bass.
I will look into that CD!
As a bass freak, i find that if i am torn between one notch up and one notch down, i start with one notch down...and if over a week or so, i keep turning the overall system volume up, then i know intuitively i am looking for that extra notch up to fill in the bass.
I will look into that CD!
Great.... I always like the non-SACD remastered version better...the original has a lower noise floor. I think that's what you have. Also this is a great soundtrack, the Varese Sarabond is the one you want. The big drums have a fabulous quality to them. Enjoy! https://www.amazon.com/Lawrence-Arabia-Original-Soundtrack-Recording/dp/B0000014RH
Thanks! Just to let you know the 2 Artesania damping plates arrived...so that is now 5 on the Velodyne with 40kg (88lbs) of weight on top...115.5 lbs in total. We shall see if the 2 extra damping plates improve as much as hoped!
With all my vibration improvements a long with the heavy duty star ground circuit now in place again,I never realised how much the bottom end mucked up everything else. I have about 90lbs on my Vel...and I know it helps. This room and the added space to position the speakers and subs has allowed the whole system to blossom and scrubbing the low frequency signal has made a huge difference. Lloyd happy Holidays...thanks
Since my experiments on noise pretty much dominate the performance of my system. I'll summarize my thought....Noise rejection should not be the focus for better fidelity. The focus should be removing noise from the playback system. The principle of refrigeration is a good loose analogy. You are not rejecting heat or adding "cold",you are removing "heat" from the system by exchange. So real noise mitigation is done by removal,not by rejection. Noise will follow the path of least resistance back to ground. The lower the resistance and the better the termination the more noise will flow back to earth ground. Pretty simple...though the hard part is designing a transfer shield less than .0000x and then making sure the termination does not degrade that resistance level.
Continuing on mass damping the Velodyne...i have ordered another 20kg of polished chrome plates...10kg for each of the 2 new Artesania damping plates which have just been added. This will take the mass damping solution to 5 Artesania damping plates (25lbs), plus 135lbs of weight on top.
At the moment we are 115lbs of total weight. There is a lot less excess rumble which I am very pleased about. It also means that, as I have done more listening, at the original volume (13 for music, 23 for movies with a slightly higher upper limit on the velodyne of 42 hz vs 40hz for music)...the bass is much more articulate and defined. HOWEVER, without the rumble, we also lose a bit of visceral 'grunt'. It is subtle, but for me, it means the difference between a visceral/interesting performance even at volume 1...and something much more articulate but also just that slight bit flat. I admit as a bass freak, that 'flattish performance' irks me, even though i am enjoying the added detail/definition.
Conclusion? To experiment, I turned the Velodyne up one notch: to 14 for music and 24 for movies...and went BACK AND FORTH over and over again on both music and movies. Findings:
- MUSIC: All day long, prefer 14 for music. That extra bit of deep power is back, and the definition remains far better than before, with at most a negligible loss of detail relative to 13...perhaps no loss whatsoever. Not sure i care since it is so subtle, and I am reasonably anal.
- MOVIES: Here the outcome was quite different...perhaps the volume control is not linear as it goes up. We lose a still small but definitely more noticeable level of articulation in bass turning it up to 24 from 23. HOWEVER, the amount of visceral grunt is FAR more believable during ocean scenes, when you really want to feel like the room is beseiged by 30 foot waves and the roar of the ocean is everywhere. Or action scenes where you expect to be pinned to your seat.
As for detail loss, the extra rumble also masks some of the bass detail and to a teeny tiny degree...a bit on the upper registers (lower mids) as well. I am hoping the extra 20kg of weight reduces this difference by even further reducing rumble which is what seems to do the masking...while allowing the added power of volume 24 to come thru.
Since i am not nearly as critical on movies as on music, i have decided to leave it on 24 even without the 20kg of extra weight...and see how we go during the holidays, but instinctively feel like it is the right setting.
While we wait for the extra 20kg to arrive...I have 'pushed down' on the 2 new Artesania plates to mimic added 20kg of weight...i feel like it should continue to be an improvement in reduced rumble and increased definition from lack of cabinet vibration/movement.
Sounds like the next step may be to ground the Velodyne to the Tripoint Troy given the potential for EMI with a large magnet, cone, excursion, amplification, etc...
At the moment we are 115lbs of total weight. There is a lot less excess rumble which I am very pleased about. It also means that, as I have done more listening, at the original volume (13 for music, 23 for movies with a slightly higher upper limit on the velodyne of 42 hz vs 40hz for music)...the bass is much more articulate and defined. HOWEVER, without the rumble, we also lose a bit of visceral 'grunt'. It is subtle, but for me, it means the difference between a visceral/interesting performance even at volume 1...and something much more articulate but also just that slight bit flat. I admit as a bass freak, that 'flattish performance' irks me, even though i am enjoying the added detail/definition.
Conclusion? To experiment, I turned the Velodyne up one notch: to 14 for music and 24 for movies...and went BACK AND FORTH over and over again on both music and movies. Findings:
- MUSIC: All day long, prefer 14 for music. That extra bit of deep power is back, and the definition remains far better than before, with at most a negligible loss of detail relative to 13...perhaps no loss whatsoever. Not sure i care since it is so subtle, and I am reasonably anal.
- MOVIES: Here the outcome was quite different...perhaps the volume control is not linear as it goes up. We lose a still small but definitely more noticeable level of articulation in bass turning it up to 24 from 23. HOWEVER, the amount of visceral grunt is FAR more believable during ocean scenes, when you really want to feel like the room is beseiged by 30 foot waves and the roar of the ocean is everywhere. Or action scenes where you expect to be pinned to your seat.
As for detail loss, the extra rumble also masks some of the bass detail and to a teeny tiny degree...a bit on the upper registers (lower mids) as well. I am hoping the extra 20kg of weight reduces this difference by even further reducing rumble which is what seems to do the masking...while allowing the added power of volume 24 to come thru.
Since i am not nearly as critical on movies as on music, i have decided to leave it on 24 even without the 20kg of extra weight...and see how we go during the holidays, but instinctively feel like it is the right setting.
While we wait for the extra 20kg to arrive...I have 'pushed down' on the 2 new Artesania plates to mimic added 20kg of weight...i feel like it should continue to be an improvement in reduced rumble and increased definition from lack of cabinet vibration/movement.
Sounds like the next step may be to ground the Velodyne to the Tripoint Troy given the potential for EMI with a large magnet, cone, excursion, amplification, etc...
Last edited:
You have a Troy....good. You can easily connect that Vel...by maybe intersecting the Vel cable to a Troy cable or a sink connection. Or you can have a cable made up....not hard to do. It needs to be copper only...either stranded or woven but it must a low enough resistance equal to 1 or 2 awg
Thank you! Will give this a shot. I have been told by Tripoint to ensure that if i am attaching grounding wires to the binding posts on the back...to use the same cables on any particular binding post. Since i have some extra Tripoint grounding cables, should i try that instead? Or is the 1-2 gauge necessary for resistance reasons in your recommendation?
That is not completely true, Roger - noise above the audio band can still effect the performance of circuitry in audible ways. The higher the noise frequency spectra, the less that resistance is a determining factor for the return pathway to source "A more complete and accurate way of stating the principle is that the current flows in the path of least impedance. For DC, only the resistive part of impedance matters."
Give it a try....understand that Troy wants you to use their cables...the're in business. In my experience....this noise thing tends to be almost a bottomless pit. The only way you can be sure is to experiment,but that's up to you. I originally started with 12 awg and now use 2 awg and have used 1 awg and double strap at that.....it has never failed to improve the sound quality in every facet.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |