My 2 channel experiment

[LL21]

Guys,

Even with the vel spiked to the subfloor I had to turn the volume down to almost zilch. Now at least I can turn it up without any boom,even though I would say it's only 1 1/2 clicks above off. My other dual sub is 1200 pounds w/2 16's,I think this Vel is 100 pounds soaking wet...so almost doubling the weight really made a difference..

Yikes! 1200 pound sub! What kind of sub is it? Sub or submarine? Yes, my Velodyne is 140lbs so adding 115 lbs does indeed make a positive improvement, particularly when it is also isolated off the floor.

 

[RogerD]

It's good to see this focus on system noise, again - well done, Roger. What fascinates me is that there are such widespread & fundamental perceptual differences from what are currently unmeasured changes in the signals.

What I came across some time ago was, to my mind, the explanation for this - research into auditory processing called auditory scene analysis - ASA (this is fundamental to the volume control algorithms in the Dolby link given earlier).

What ASA reinforces is the realisation that the processing aspect is the kernel of our auditory perception. Lots of people admit this but don't actually absorb the implications of this fact, I believe. We actually seldom have enough signal cues to unambiguously create the auditory scene from processing of these signals - rather what we perceive is the scene we are continually adjusting as we journey through the processing of incoming signals. So we are continually faced with unresolved aspects of the scene, some of which get resolved by the next signals being processed & some open up other unresolved aspects. From my understanding, this is the continual moment to moment process occurring & it's not surprising that anything which more quickly resolves this uncertainty relieves this underlying uncertainty. We often resolve it through using our sense of sight - notice how when we close our eyes our sense of surety is reduced

But another aspect, fFor instance, is that processing of signal patterns can expose & reveal more (to our perception) from the signal than listening to the same signals but in unpatterned format - in other words the patterning of the sounds together with our innate auditory models, can reveal aspects in the sound that we wouldn't normally hear. In other words we are continually creating an auditory scene from the perceived patterns & other aspects of the signal stream. Hence, in explanation for the above low level noise phenomena, small changes in aspects of these patterns can change an auditory scene in fundamental & core areas. A lot of times these are the "night & day" differences that are often reported in listening.

So how might this low level noise result in such fundamental perceptual differences? This noise is not a separate perceptual layer of noise, like tape hiss or groove noise - it's not present when there's no signal. It is intertwined with the signal & therefore not perceptually separable into a different auditory stream, as in tape hiss. My hunch is that it affects how we perceive the attack portion or risetime of a signal - this is a hugely important part of the signal for our perception - the A of ADSR signal envelope. It is this part of the signal that is heard first & determines the spatial, timbral & other important characteristics of the sound.

IMO, better formation of this risetime signal from silent to maximum energy not only locates the start of this signal in time more accurately but also portrays the energy profile of this attack portion more accurately.

Although ASA is a very interesting area of research into auditory processing, it is still trying to tease out the basics of it's operation. Since reading my way into ASA I've come to realise that what we are often experiencing & describing in this hobby is not yet the concern of ASA - they are still working out (& making great headway) in teasing out the fundamental operation of what is a pretty complex sense.

jkeny thanks,

I have had my psycho acoustics circuit since the 1980's and it was designed by a audio engineer friend that manufactured speakers,sub's,and electronics which I still use. The circuit is passive and originally worked with a single pair of speakers driven off the main amplifier. I added another center pair and they now have a dedicated amplifier.

The circuit has always produced a expanded soundstage adding micro detail and ambient information while increasing the total amount of information to the listener. The circuit corrects the time domain (delay) in the room,at least that's what I remember,as it was explained to me many years ago.

The system is fairly easy to setup and align so that all the speakers and their dispersion patterns produce a expandable soundstage with great focus and clarity. If the information has been captured by the microphone and the RE intends to make a faithful rendition the result can be stunning.

I have found that signal grounding can make a larger difference in lower overall distortion. A engineer who has since passed away published a study that finds the signal travels a long the skin of the conductor and also travel a long the shielding. In my experience 10 gauge wire seems to be adequate for creating a large enough pathway to ground.

I'm not a scientist,but resonance control seems to have a greater impact on sound quality. I have heard amplifiers with very heavy chassis that were extremely quiet. Much like pumping water through pipes, the amount of interference will limit pump pressure performance. I think this is a good analogy for what happens in equipment when the signal is effected by outside resonance. The greater the circuit remains physically stable,the less noise is delivered down the chain. This seems to have a dramatic effect on the resolution and transparency produced by the speakers. As the noise level is lowered the sound field expands and the reproducer becomes more efficient which requires less current from the amplifier,volume levels increase. With this the listener is moved much closer to the music or I should say the music comes to the listener.

So with all this unmasked information it is apparent to me that "all" the data in the recording is captured. What the microphone hears is for most part transferred in the recording process. The result is the "gap" is closed in digital,there is little gain to be realised in higher sampling rates.

With psycho acoustics now the brain can process this flood of information that no longer is reaching the ear out of time. Without the time delay there is no cancellation,no unscrambling to deal with,just like sound in the real world that pattern is uniform and complete. Is it perfect no, but it is a vast improvement over a sound reproduction system without it. In sum the improved sound field produces a far more lifelike illusion.

In terms of audiophile jargon,there are certain things that stand out that in lower resolution systems that are less noticeable. The natural decay of the instrument which now seems to be more complete. Speed or in time as the music has much improved pace. Power as instruments now are portrayed with more energy. Reverberation as with the improvement of space and time the concert hall actually becomes a part of the recording or illusion. Time and space as the movement of the performers and the energy released by the instruments now takes on quality of realism.

The recording is now revealed with all the good and bad. The good being, the best now can defy the limits of the walls and ceilings of the listening room and the illusion that the brain now produces in a more natural analog process becomes 3 dimensional. The listener is part of the environment of the recording venue.

Anyway this is my civilian attempt to explain psycho acoustics which I think is the next frontier in 2 channel stereo,and it remains a 2 channel system. It is a beautiful experience.

Jkeny...I think you added the bolded part,as I wrote my reply without reading this part. I think my observations match yours....interesting...thank you. Roger

http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/

 

[jkeny]

Yes, Roger, the perceptual effects you describe are very familiar. I would just mention one thing about soundstage - I find that depth (& layering) rather than soundstage width seems to result from the lowering of system noise - I believe that increased depth can sometimes be the result of distortions.

I haven't looked into resonances as there is still a lot left to be uncovered in the electronics side of the equation & the maintenance of the signal waveform when transmitted between audio devices.

Yes, Bregman is the father of ASA & well worth reading - I turned a friend of yours, Frank (FAS42) onto ASA too!

 

[RogerD]

Yes, Roger, the perceptual effects you describe are very familiar. I would just mention one thing about soundstage - I find that depth (& layering) rather than soundstage width seems to result from the lowering of system noise - I believe that increased depth can sometimes be the result of distortions.

I haven't looked into resonances as there is still a lot left to be uncovered in the electronics side of the equation & the maintenance of the signal waveform when transmitted between audio devices.

Yes, Bregman is the father of ASA & well worth reading - I turned a friend of yours, Frank (FAS42) onto ASA too!

Jkeny, I miss Frank,although not universal. The depth in my system has always been rather constant. The layering effect has been vastly improved as the space aspect has becomes larger as the width of the soundstage increases. Mind you that this is very much recording dependent,although all recordings seem to benefit. Thanks

 

[jkeny]

Jkeny, I miss Frank,although not universal.

Indeed. I can understand some frustration with Frank's message as I too felt this frustration early on with Frank, not due to his message but rather due to the lack of any specific detail in his approach. I think when he took on board ASA I warmed more & have been talking to him & opus222 on another messaging area.

The depth in my system has always been rather constant. The layering effect has been vastly improved as the space aspect has becomes larger as the width of the soundstage increases. Mind you that this is very much recording dependent,although all recordings seem to benefit. Thanks

Ok, my experience is different to yours & that't why I raised it. I have always correlated soundstage depth layering with noise reduction to the extent that I find it now a causal relationship. I don't find soundstage width to correlate - hence my comments.

 

[RogerD]

Indeed. I can understand some frustration with Frank's message as I too felt this frustration early on with Frank, not due to his message but rather due to the lack of any specific detail in his approach. I think when he took on board ASA I warmed more & have been talking to him & opus222 on another messaging area. Ok, my experience is different to yours & that't why I raised it. I have always correlated soundstage depth layering with noise reduction to the extent that I find it now a casaul relationship. I don't find soundstage width to correlate - hence my comments.

Ok,but then again that is with my psycho circuit in place. Overall it is my experience that the depth in the recording is improved with less noise in the sense that if it is in the recording it "stands out like a sore thumb",as do lots of aspects.

p.s. tell frank...roger says hi...please

 

[jkeny]

Ok,but then again that is with my psycho circuit in place. Overall it is my experience that the depth in the recording is improved with less noise in the sense that if it is in the recording it "stands out like a sore thumb",as do lots of aspects.

p.s. tell frank...roger says hi...please

Sure, Roger, I understand
I'll also pass on your regards to Frank

 

[RogerD]

You're AWESOME! Funny...i literally just moved ANOTHER Artesania damper on top of the Velodyne and found it STILL helped (darnit!)...so i figured if i can find another Artesania damper to keep there permanently (i had temporarily moved it from another component)...and then put another 10kg on it, that would get me from 88lbs to around 115lbs which, as you have just found, makes a big difference.

For some reason, i did not remember that you had a Velodyne 18" as well. Enjoy!

LL21....came across this very intriguing....

http://hifi-advice.com/Artesania-Platforms-review-3.html

 

[LL21]

LL21....came across this very intriguing....

http://hifi-advice.com/Artesania-Platforms-review-3.html

Thank you! Yes, that is exactly the review i just sent to our local dealer. Funny about the super big Artesania damper...i sent my dealer a photo of how i use my 'regular Artesania dampers'...i put an HRS Nimbus Coupler on top of them, and place a 10kg solid brass weight on top...and it looks darn close to what the manufacturer has done with their 'uber damper' which (also) weighs 10kg.

All I can say is this 12.5kg Artesania/brass mass damper works incredibly well...and with 3 of them on the Velodyne, plus 2 more on the way, I think that beds down the Velodyne (115lbs plus Stillpoints/Auralex underneath)...

Thanks again for posting that...it is an interesting read.

 

[LL21]

I just received some 'acceptably good looking' polished chrome 5kg weights...and placed them on top of the mass damping set up on top of the transport...something i had done only until i had to move them to the sub to see how much more weight i needed on top of the sub.

NOW, the Transport is back to 'optimal' with 10kg on top of the Stillpoints Ultra 5/Artesania damper which mass damps the top.

meanwhile, the sub now has 105lbs of weight on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers+Artesania dampers which have also made a great improvement (vs only 40lbs and NO Artesania dampers before). Not only is the bass tighter, but a lot of 'minor bass warble' has disappeared which also enables the treble/mids to come thru even more clearly.

 

[RogerD]

I just received some 'acceptably good looking' polished chrome 5kg weights...and placed them on top of the mass damping set up on top of the transport...something i had done only until i had to move them to the sub to see how much more weight i needed on top of the sub.

NOW, the Transport is back to 'optimal' with 10kg on top of the Stillpoints Ultra 5/Artesania damper which mass damps the top.

meanwhile, the sub now has 105lbs of weight on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers+Artesania dampers which have also made a great improvement (vs only 40lbs and NO Artesania dampers before). Not only is the bass tighter, but a lot of 'minor bass warble' has disappeared which also enables the treble/mids to come thru even more clearly.

LL21....Wow....it is great that we are experiencing similar improvements. After I got rid of my emi magnets on my digital cable the bottom end even got more dynamic. I'm tempted to add a 30 lb piece of granite to the sub that I have in the garage. The Vel still vibrates with ninety pounds added. With the two subs I'm getting some good concussion at my normal listening levels.

Do you know if there is a U.S. Dealer for the dampeners yet ? I like them...

 

[SCAudiophile]

LL21....Wow....it is great that we are experiencing similar improvements. After I got rid of my emi magnets on my digital cable the bottom end even got more dynamic. I'm tempted to add a 30 lb piece of granite to the sub that I have in the garage. The Vel still vibrates with ninety pounds added. With the two subs I'm getting some good concussion at my normal listening levels.

Do you know if there is a U.S. Dealer for the dampeners yet ? I like them...

If you are speaking of HRS or Stillpoints (not clear at least to me), send me a private message and I'll share the 2 good dealers of both that I know of here in the US.

 

[RogerD]

I need to thank Amir for being truthful with me. I have always experimented with my system in ways to reduce noise. I started with EMI/RFI reduction using very small amounts of absorbing material and then magnets on my cables. 3 years ago I removed all that junk and just left two small magnets on my digital cable. Recently,about a month ago I moved the system downstairs,after it lay dormant for 18 months upstairs.I had my electrician instal 10 ga wire for dedicated lines and that has produced a noise floor that no longer requires any type of star circuit grounding. I then read a thread about Steve's system using the new resonance control racks. Upon doing a little study I weighted down all my components and my Velodyne and that increased system resolution tremendously. But thinking that the 2 magnets had no effect on the sound was should I say a good example of owners ability to be in a bubble.

The end result is after removing the magnets,the false sense of more clarity has been revealed and real clarity with improved resonance control shines through on every level. Moral is have other opinions and never use any goo,or special material or ferrite rings on your system. These things cutoff treble extension,effect the high midrange,and give a false sense of greater clarity and high resolution. All that is needed is a good pathway to ground of 10awg cable or larger if your electrician can pull it through and resonance control. As of 12/9 I did star ground my mono blocks to my preamp with 6 gauge wire.

 

[YashN]

I then read a thread about Steve's system using the new resonance control racks. Upon doing a little study I weighted down all my components and my Velodyne and that increased system resolution tremendously.

Read about Townshend's seismic isolation, and then experiment with a triple ball-and-cup arrangement underneath your gear - you may need a non-resonant smooth and hard surface to put the gear on unless the bottom of your gear can do. Try this on amps, DACs, speakers, AC Conditioners especially.

 

[RogerD]

Read about Townshend's seismic isolation, and then experiment with a triple ball-and-cup arrangement underneath your gear - you may need a non-resonant smooth and hard surface to put the gear on unless the bottom of your gear can do. Try this on amps, DACs, speakers, AC Conditioners especially.

Thank you...YashN

 

[LL21]

LL21....Wow....it is great that we are experiencing similar improvements. After I got rid of my emi magnets on my digital cable the bottom end even got more dynamic. I'm tempted to add a 30 lb piece of granite to the sub that I have in the garage. The Vel still vibrates with ninety pounds added. With the two subs I'm getting some good concussion at my normal listening levels.

Do you know if there is a U.S. Dealer for the dampeners yet ? I like them...

Hi Roger, sorry for delay...long nites in the office. Yes, the Velodyne also still vibrates a little with 90 lbs added here as well. So our comments match pretty much exactly. But the benefits are big with the weight on top (and Auralex/Stillpoints 5s underneath) 'sandwiching' the Velodyne. As for Artesania dampers (which in our system equates to one double-thickness, long (12 inch) HRS DPX plate...Phil O'Hanlon is the distributor (member here at WBF usually regarding Vivid speakers). Good luck!

 

[RogerD]

Hi Roger, sorry for delay...long nites in the office. Yes, the Velodyne also still vibrates a little with 90 lbs added here as well. So our comments match pretty much exactly. But the benefits are big with the weight on top (and Auralex/Stillpoints 5s underneath) 'sandwiching' the Velodyne. As for Artesania dampers (which in our system equates to one double-thickness, long (12 inch) HRS DPX plate...Phil O'Hanlon is the distributor (member here at WBF usually regarding Vivid speakers). Good luck!

LL21 Thanks!

 

[RogerD]

After having 10-3 dedicated lines installed in my new room I was hoping to avoid star circuit grounding my system. Even though the bass was tremendous and the imaging was stellar, the music was missing something. I thought well what's different from when the system was upstairs...star ground. I used 6ga wire to my mono blocks to the preamp and 8ga on my Tube dac,CD/DVD Transport,dual sub crossover,Velodyne FSR18 also on my psychoacoustics P300 Accuphase amp. Anything with a transformer is in the circuit,as I have found noise migrates to the underside of the metal enclosure. So now everything that is connected to the preamp is star grounded. The result is the magic is back...tonal purity and presence...a hammer inside a velvet glove. Reminds me of drinking a great grand cru burgundy like a Chambertin,smooth as silk,but great complexity and a sense that you are drinking from vines that have nourished themselves on centuries of minerals. It can be magical.

The signature has changed...nuance and time and space are captured again with stunning realism. I was listening to Dark Side of the Moon..last cut and a voice from the left channel sounded in back of me. It startled me as I turned my head and thought my Brother had entered the room and said something. I like it.....real progress.

12/16 About as noiseless as I'll ever get this system to sound and with my investment not bad at all. The new room has been terrific since now the system is setup as originally intended with the psycho acoustics.

 

[LL21]

LL21....Wow....it is great that we are experiencing similar improvements. After I got rid of my emi magnets on my digital cable the bottom end even got more dynamic. I'm tempted to add a 30 lb piece of granite to the sub that I have in the garage. The Vel still vibrates with ninety pounds added. With the two subs I'm getting some good concussion at my normal listening levels.

Do you know if there is a U.S. Dealer for the dampeners yet ? I like them...

Interesting...so as you may remember i've got 3 Artesania dampers on top of the Velodyne and then have placed HRS nimbus couplers on top (just had some sitting around)...and then placed 88lbs of weight on top of them. I also 'hide' these weights behind photo frames so its looks like a piece of furniture in the corner.

...well, before when we had only 45lbs of weight on top, all the photo frames would slide around during action movies and sometimes even fall off! I just tested the system by cranking Expendables 15% louder during explosion scenes...and not one photo frame moved even a centimeter.

So it may be much more stilled by the mass damping than i originally thought...and i may add 2 more Artesania's as well...115lbs total.

 

[RogerD]

Interesting...so as you may remember i've got 3 Artesania dampers on top of the Velodyne and then have placed HRS nimbus couplers on top (just had some sitting around)...and then placed 88lbs of weight on top of them. I also 'hide' these weights behind photo frames so its looks like a piece of furniture in the corner.

...well, before when we had only 45lbs of weight on top, all the photo frames would slide around during action movies and sometimes even fall off! I just tested the system by cranking Expendables 15% louder during explosion scenes...and not one photo frame moved even a centimeter.

So it may be much more stilled by the mass damping than i originally thought...and i may add 2 more Artesania's as well...115lbs total.

No doubt in my mind it helps. I had a bunch of 24x24 marble tile left over from a remodel and two granite shelves from my rack that I don't use right now,they worked extremely well. It's funny all this damping through the system has helped the bass slam of my satellites. Each one has 4 6 inch woofers...so I'm extremely happy about that too. Like I said I have a 24x24 piece of granite in the garage...it must weigh 40 or 50 pounds, I need to find some young buck to bring it downstairs for me,and then I'll really be cooking.

Take care Lloyd...Roger