Will Analog be better than my high end digital?

[thedudeabides]

Lol...you don't need any data to prove that...just decent hearing.

I agree with Tim.

Just like the ever on-going debate on this topic and audio in general, everything is subjective.

Decent hearing? I don't understand. Everyone's hearing acuity is different.

 

[Atmasphere]

run a square wave through a vinyl playback process, or a SET amp, or a speaker, what are you trying to say as nobody listens to square waves with any fidelity at all. phase/arrival times pretty much are to do with the sameness between the two stereo channels in the real world, as for imaging, as for sound distinctions group delay is more important. I agree that percussion is a broadband event though as far as distribution of harmonics, but we are still limited by our hearing of changes and the amplitudes of these changes.

He was referring to phase shift. Over a spectrum of frequencies the ear uses phase shift to localized sound sources- good phase shift response equates to a better soundstage. The problem is not that Redbook can't do phase shift right, the problem is you can't put the signal directly into Redbook such that that is so. The best way to solve the problem as far as I can tell is to record at a multiple of 44KHz such that divide down without an algorithm results in the Redbook file. In this way you can record without the phase shift associated with sharp cutoff frequencies.

What does an SET have to do with this??

but arguing that vinyl more accurately replicates a signal is pointless once you learn something about electronics.

Yes, I find that despite my EE degree, I find that arguing with people about why analog is better is pointless

So it is obvious that that is not the way to go about it. Instead, look at how the LP exists in the marketplace. In 1985, the president of RCA said on national television (Today Show??) that they would be done producing vinyl by 1987. 1993 proved to be the year of the least vinyl production since the inception of the format. Its been on the rise ever since. At this point, all pressing plants in the country are fully booked for months to come.

The marketplace, IOW, says that the LP is worth keeping around, even though some people say its 'obsolete' and such. A similar argument exists for vacuum tubes, which have been 'obsolete' now for longer than the period of time when they were the only game in town! And they are still here somehow. What the market shows is that when a superior technology emerges, the prior art fades into history. An example might be side valves in internal combustion; when overhead valves showed up, side valves vanished. The same thing seems to be happening to film in photography.

But this is not happening to tubes and its not happening to the LP. This suggests that in fact these technologies simply failed to be inferior to the succeeding art; as a result they will be living side by side for the foreseeable future. In both cases the industry tried to supplant the prior art with the succeeding art, rather than let the marketplace dictate, which ultimately it always does.

So, rest assured that we will be debating this issue for a very long time- until such time as a new art evolves that ultimately is actually in fact better. When that happens, then the prior art will fade away.

 

[TBone]

no and yes or yes and no ...

Guys - Was thinking of getting into analog as I just found a tech. 1200 MK2 with all the KAB upgrades in my closet- I must have bought it a few years ago when my kids were babies and put it away- Anyway I have the Concert Fidelity Preamp and Dac with the new battery upgrade which sound wonderful-
So how much better would the analog sound then my digital- thks

To start, I no longer compare vinyl vs digital as a winner take all affair. Rather, I consider both in terms of the particular system/equipment/setup in which they reside; because generally, that more than anything else, determines overall sound quality. In my system, I enjoy 'em equally, although I listen to digital 90% of the time.

Also, Analog does add certain artifacts to the mix, without a doubt. But claiming that's some sort of "negative" in response to "better" digital reproduction, is both short sighted and flawed. I've heard far too many digital players add their own types of artifacts into the mix, and given that some digital artifacts are quite irritable to my ears, I can fully appreciate why others may prefer the added "warmth" of analog instead. However, based on my experience, a superbly well setup analog system can and does sound virtually IDENTICAL to digital; given the same mastered software. I've got more than a few CDs/LP which sound identical in dynamic structure and tonality - either played on my turntable or CDP (plus my own digital recordings of my turntable).

The thing is, it's much easier to maintain consistently fine sound quality with digital. Analog adds more and more requirements as you go along, so many minute variables exist in order to achieve "good" analog sound ... most importantly is the required subject matter experience to learn the craft, which takes much-much time.

As a turn-key solution, the Technics 1200 represents a nice "entry-level" turntable. It sounds decent enough, very upfront, overtly damped, and most importantly, the frequency extremes are severely compromised. The KAB mods improve instrumental timing, but not the extremes, which will forever remain compromised - unless a change of tonearm is provided. A stock 1200 sounds inferior to any good digital alternative, and even Time-Step or KAB modifications, if they retain the Technics arm (re-wiring this arm is IMO a complete waste of money), won't span that gap . However, I've heard a few modded 1200's with arms from Rega's and SME ... much improved, surprisingly competitive with many a more expensive turntable.

So no, if your KAB'd 1200 retains the stock arm (rewired or not) it's unlikely to sound as good as your digital player (to which I have no sonic reference). That said, it will certainly sound different, and provided a well cut / mastered LP, it will more than hint to why many audiophiles on a budget - still prefer analog.

tb1

 

[Speedskater]

The "good enough" is a set of measurements that have evolved over time based upon what people can and cannot hear. Many of the studies are old and many come from the telecommunications industry where the concern focused on quality of speech and not the "perfect" recreation of a musical experience.

This is totally incorrect! Modern test protocols and test equipment have allowed serious audio professional's to fine tune just what an audiophile can or cannot hear.

Looking at my old post, it seems that I got ahead of myself and part of the sentence never made it. What I think I meant to post:

This is totally incorrect! Modern test protocols and test equipment have allowed serious audio professional's to make more precise measurements and to fine tune just what an audiophile can or cannot hear.

I would suggest reading a few of the JJ Jonhston papers:
http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm

j.j. would sometimes complain that well run ABX listening tests were way too sensitive and he had to spend time reducing what were already extremely small uncontrolled variables.

 

[Speedskater]

Run a square wave at 1khz or 10khz through a red book record/playback process and tell me that the slew rate on transients has not been altered. You can argue whether it is audible but not that it is altered. Whether we can can hear beyond 20khz on pure sine waves is irrelevant to the loss of transient accuracy since we are much more sensitive to arrival times and phase relationships than frequency response.

Not that 10kHz square waves have anything to do with the real world. Or that engineers measured required slew rates well before digital records were in use.
But using a 10kHz square wave (I'll let you figure out how to generate that square wave) look at the output of any of the best studio microphones. Has anything been altered?
Or using almost any of the high end loudspeaker systems (yes there may be a few exceptions) play that same 10kHz square wave, capture the output with a lab mic. Has anything been altered?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Oh man this is such an easy question , please ..???
I also like digital recordings but mostly they are honest recordings , not " mastered recordings "

_DSC0059 by andromeda61, on Flickr


_DSC0041 by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[mmakshak]

I still think analog is more relaxing. I used to use it just for that reason. I think it's possible that analog will play inside your head sooner than digital will. There is an interesting "you-tube" video where a comparison was done using the same master. Needle drops of a Technics 1200, that I heard, were not very impressive(He later modified the 1200, but it still wasn't good enough for me.). I've not heard the KAB upgrades, though.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think analogue can/will sound better then the best digital , but it takes commitment/knowledge and a minimum of around 15 K euros imo for turntable cart phonostage so it aint cheap , going cheap will give also an organic relaxing sound , but it ll also give all the negative expects of analogue on the cheap , noise/ limited bandwith .....

 

[mmakshak]

I thought the Audio Note 2 and J.C. Verdier turntables at a recent(3 years ago) California Audio Show were enough to show up the Meitner gear there, and I think Meitner might agree to this. Now, if you were to compare(intellectually) the analog to the digital, most likely the digital would appear to give more information than those turntables. Still, I believe you would be listening to analog more if you had both of these analog and digital sources. I don't think feeling-wise you needed the Kronos that was playing there to appreciate this.

 

[andromedaaudio]

On the other hand if tape software would be cheaper /more widespread and completely noise free (only speaking for my own anlogue tape system ) that is a much better bang for buck , bought an old studer B 62 for around a 1 k euros had it refurbished to some extent for another 800 euros played some of its own recorded mastertapes on it , done by an amateur recording engineer , and wauw ..... no more questions firmly ahead of records and certainly digital

 

[BobM]

IMO - inexpensive digital is (relatively) really good these days. You will need to spend substantial multiples of $ in an analogue setup to match the level of quality coming out of a sub-$500 digital player.

That being said, I would ponder that the break even point for digital quality = analogue quality (e.g. turntable, arm, cartridge, excluding phono stage) is about $2500-3500. Above that point analogue wins on a dollar for dollar basis.

Of course, above that point digital doesn't get hugely better, but you can spend far more on analogue and continue to hear big improvements.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Gonna hear some topanalogue on saturday , aalt jouk vd Hul will be there as well , to explain new cables and of course the Grail phonostage , gonna be great, only those blumenhofer horns are not my type , last time they played the Magico S 5 , sounded exxcelent .
IMO he should exhibit with my new speakers but he wont , dealers merely only deal with brands that are well known already risk aversion .

http://www.a10audio.nl/

The Reed Muse3 idler drive will be shown as well

Tijdens deze dag demonstreren wij via een bijzonder fraaie set-up draaitafels van Dr. Feickert Analogue en de Reed Muse 3C. Voorzien van de tonearmen van Reed en Ikeda, elementen van ZYX, Ikeda en natuurlijk van den Hul.

Extra speciaal
Introduktie van de Reed Muse3 idler drive platenspeler, in volle glorie te horen.

Setup:
RCM RIAA, Phonomodul, Holy Grail phono versterkers
Octave Jubilee versterking
Blumenhofer Grand Gioia luidsprekers
Bekabeling en stroom: Ansuz, Stealth en Shunyata
DATA EN TIJDEN

 

[microstrip]

The real reason why vinyl sounds better (and virtual music is a complete disaster ) in typical living rooms:

Matej Isak interview with Laurence Dickie of Vivid Audio http://www.monoandstereo.com/2012/11/exclusive-interview-with-vivid-audio.html

One lesson I learnt very early on in my time with B&W was the importance of acoustically significant clutter; I had just finished the design of the first active speaker and we had the things set up in the laboratory surrounded by all the usual detritus. John Bowers came into the room and was immediately impressed by the sound in the room so he ordered that it be converted into a new listening room. So the benches and shelves were removed, carpet replaced and the walls repainted. The acoustics were completely ruined and the room was never used for listening.


Fortunately many domestic environments have excellent clutter like bookshelves and record collections but as these are replaced by digital media we have to deliberately add diffusion and absorption.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks micro now i finally understand why thick high end cables and big powerblocks /conditioners improve the sound ....

 

[MrAcoustat]

Guys - Was thinking of getting into analog as I just found a tech. 1200 MK2 with all the KAB upgrades in my closet- I must have bought it a few years ago when my kids were babies and put it away- Anyway I have the Concert Fidelity Preamp and Dac with the new battery upgrade which sound wonderful-
So how much better would the analog sound then my digital- thks

Only if you can live with surface noise i can't, for that reason i have been 100% pro digital since 1983, yes the first year was rough but then came Meridian ( 1984 ) and i have never looked back.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Only if you can live with surface noise i can't, for that reason i have been 100% pro digital since 1983, yes the first year was rough but then came Meridian ( 1984 ) and i have never looked back.

You've been feeding us this same line since you joined, and that's really all you do. How about something more substantive as opposed to constantly dissing the vinyl format.

 

[Jeffy]

Only if you can live with surface noise i can't, for that reason i have been 100% pro digital since 1983, yes the first year was rough but then came Meridian ( 1984 ) and i have never looked back.

Total BS. If you could live with early digital in those days, I'm glad you don't have a fine analog rig set up because you would not realize how much better it is. Analog is not for everyone. Analog is for people who know what natural music sounds like and likes to go to live jazz and classical concerts. My nephew who is 40 is basically into rock music from 60-80's and was all digital. He has a good dac and transport. He bought a used Well Tempered table and arm and Audio Research Phono stage. Guess what he listens strictly to vinyl now and hunting down first pressing rock records. Enough said

 

[andromedaaudio]

A record industry plant a couple of kilometers from where i live has never been busier since .
The guy who bought the plant in the nineties from iirc Sony was ridiculed at the time but they are working shifts now to keep up with demand

http://www.recordindustry.com/


Regarding noise from the site :

Consistent quality is what we strive for. Record Industry uses custom formulated virgin vinyl, manufactured to our specifications. Our toluene free compound has the lowest surface noise known in the vinyl industry. It is more environmentally friendly compared to other types of compound because of the lack of toluene and other materials such as lead. Therefore it can be used for manufacturing according the EC environmental guidelines for 2015.

 

[MrAcoustat]

You've been feeding us this same line since you joined, and that's really all you do. How about something more substantive as opposed to constantly dissing the vinyl format.

I am not dissing vinyl i am simply saying that it is NOISY and that is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth even if you don't like it.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Total BS. If you could live with early digital in those days, I'm glad you don't have a fine analog rig set up because you would not realize how much better it is. Analog is not for everyone. Analog is for people who know what natural music sounds like and likes to go to live jazz and classical concerts. My nephew who is 40 is basically into rock music from 60-80's and was all digital. He has a good dac and transport. He bought a used Well Tempered table and arm and Audio Research Phono stage. Guess what he listens strictly to vinyl now and hunting down first pressing rock records. Enough said[/QUOTE

My last analog set up in 1983 - Oracle Delphi turntable - Stax UA9N tonearm - Grace F9R cartridge - it was a very good turntable BUT it still was noisy and that is normal where there is friction there is noise like it or not, please enjoy your vinyl and i will enjoy my digital it's all about the music.