Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[jazdoc]

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, thank you for this explanation and I have no reason to dispute it. It makes sense. And perhaps it has to do with the mics and the recordings. My point is that modern systems seem to be moving away from the type of sound that I heard last night live. I am wondering why. Perhaps it is just too difficult to figure out and the industry is not able to create an experience which is similar to the live event.

In the 70’s and 80’s, speakers had a knob in the back that would let you adjust their high-frequency contour to suit the listening environment and owner’s preferences.

I think that simple adjustment capabilities would go a long ways to making you and others happy. This whole lack of adjustments philosophy adopted by the high-end audio industry is a tool used to promote equipment churn.

If I disconnect the super-tweeter and attenuate the high-frequency driver on my big horn system I would get a sound more like what you consider “natural”. Conversely, if I leave the super-tweeter and high-frequency drivers as they are and increase the gain on the power to the lower frequency drivers, I would also achieve the “natural” sound you aspire to.

Here’s the deal, at least for me, attenuating the high frequency energy and details robs me of the texture that I prefer to hear with my music. If I wanted to listen to a smooth presentation, I would have settled for much less costly, simpler and less capable systems, and not the highly resolving systems that I have assembled.

One additional note, to achieve that “raw” and “live” sound that I desire, the high frequency extension and detail is mandatory to realize that sound texture.

Conversely, to achieve the “natural” sound that you desire, the high frequency roll-off is mandatory to achieve that perceived sense of “weight” and “smoothness”.

 

[Rexp]

Great question. It depends on the goals of the creators. A painter can be all over the place, striving for realism before photography or abstract creation, and artistic freedom. A novelist is telling a story, perhaps with a message or philosophy. I don’t know what to judge that against. Where is the reality in a novel one reflects and conjures up images based on experience and can either relate or not. I find a pretty easy to get lost in a movie. My mind gets absorbed by the images sounds and story and action.

One of the early goals of Audio I had thought was a realistic representation of the original event. I’m wondering if that is still the goal. Perhaps it’s more art along every step of the creation and playback to evoke a feeling or simply enjoyment.

All that is fine. Entertainment, enjoyment are worthy goals. Is that all we are trying to do with our systems? Personally, I am trying to get closer to the listening experience I have at the live event. Everyone might have that same goal, I am not really sure.

Realistic reproduction has to be the goal of the High Fidelity Audio hobby. Luckily some manufacturers still appreciate this, others hide behind the 'its all subjective' line as their equipment is simply not good enough. At the London show, Quested had two rooms, one with live band, the other with a system playing recordings of the same band so you could compare the two:

The London Audio Show 2024 | The Ear

The London Audio Show in the Radisson Red hotel was a small but attractively formed event with exhibitors in 29 rooms of which three were of a good size

the-ear.net

 

[thedudeabides]

I can't even remember a thread that starts with a claim that "vinyl sucks" or a question like "why is digital superior?"

Very true indeed. I was going to mention that in my previous post. If someone did that, it would be death by a thousand analog (digital is too harsh and grainy) cuts.

 

[PeterA]

One additional note, to achieve that “raw” and “live” sound that I desire, the high frequency extension and detail is mandatory to realize that sound texture.

Conversely, to achieve the “natural” sound that you desire, the high frequency roll-off is mandatory to achieve that perceived sense of “weight” and “smoothness”.

I never said anything about smoothness. Those are your words that you are trying to attribute to me. I did not hear smooth last night with the performance. I did not hear the thin tipped up bright sound that I hear from your videos. I understand that you like that and that is fine, but I don’t hear that live and I don’t want to hear it from my system. I want to have that same experience, the energy filling the room and the power of the sound the startling dynamics. The realistic timber so the instruments sound the way they do live. There was nothing thin or smooth or bright in the live music experience of that jazz performance.

 

[andromedaaudio]

In the 70’s and 80’s, speakers had a knob in the back that would let you adjust their high-frequency contour to suit the listening environment and owner’s preferences.

I think that simple adjustment capabilities would go a long ways to making you and others happy. This whole lack of adjustments philosophy adopted by the high-end audio industry is a tool used to promote equipment churn.

If I disconnect the super-tweeter and attenuate the high-frequency driver on my big horn system I would get a sound more like what you consider “natural”. Conversely, if I leave the super-tweeter and high-frequency drivers as they are and increase the gain on the power to the lower frequency drivers, I would also achieve the “natural” sound you aspire to.

Here’s the deal, at least for me, attenuating the high frequency energy and details robs me of the texture that I prefer to hear with my music. If I wanted to listen to a smooth presentation, I would have settled for much less costly, simpler and less capable systems, and not the highly resolving systems that I have assembled.

I agree with you Carlos.
A high end audio transducer should get a CE marking of some sort.
Lets say to qualify the FR has to be in a certain range.

In transducer business anybody can do whatever they want as long as it ' sounds good./ pleasing"
Problems with a tilted FR are solved with a soft sounding / less dynamic amp for example, and vice versa .
Then you have the " i change the sound with cables ' business.
Power conditioners/ sound enhancers only thing thats left are magic spells to enhance the sound
Its a free for all hocus pocus business for a large part and that may be an atttaction in itself in this more and more rules based administrative controlled society .
One of the last places you can escape and do what ever you want lol.

Vinyl.is in that philosophy it allows for enless fiddling untill you get what pleases you.

A shouty horn ... okay lets roll it of 10 db

 

[Imperial]

View attachment 131311

But IF you sniff too much …

 

[rDin]

Not all digital is created equal. Look into HQPLAYER and high rate DSD playback with chipless DAC’s, such as the T+A DAC200 and those based on the Signalyst DSC discrete Delta-Sigma digital-to-analog converter “Open Hardware”.

So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...

 

[hopkins]

Great question. It depends on the goals of the creators. A painter can be all over the place, striving for realism before photography or abstract creation, and artistic freedom. A novelist is telling a story, perhaps with a message or philosophy. I don’t know what to judge that against. Where is the reality in a novel one reflects and conjures up images based on experience and can either relate or not. I find a pretty easy to get lost in a movie. My mind gets absorbed by the images sounds and story and action.

One of the early goals of Audio I had thought was a realistic representation of the original event. I’m wondering if that is still the goal. Perhaps it’s more art along every step of the creation and playback to evoke a feeling or simply enjoyment.

All that is fine. Entertainment, enjoyment are worthy goals. Is that all we are trying to do with our systems? Personally, I am trying to get closer to the listening experience I have at the live event. Everyone might have that same goal, I am not really sure.

In my point of view, a recording played on a home system will never come close to a live event, but at the same time what I do appreciate is listening to a system that breathes life into music. It is hard to explain, and it can happen even if a system has known limitations that obviously make it less "accurate" than others on some aspects. The best way I can explain the "lifelike" quality of a system is in terms of how I react to it: the ability to immerse myself into the sound, to drift off and mentally navigate into the sound as if I were walking into a picture and exploring it from different angles - it is a very "visual" experience, even "tactile" perhaps. It also does not necessarily take a great recording.

I have yet to figure out exactly what "ingredients" are necessary and sufficient to provoke this feeling!

In my experience, digital and analog can sound very good; and I think you don't need the best system to figure that out, but I could be wrong. In my modest system, it's a "no brainier", but maybe I am not getting the best of either. What I do find is that each recording/mastering is unique and you can find flaws in any if you look for them. There are too many variables at play to rule out flat one type of media - that's my experience and mindset.

 

[dcathro]

I

what is the best, correctly made dac you know of?

I suspect that the best sounding DAC is this

 

[Al M.]

So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...

Turntables:
Belt drive, direct drive, idler. Different bearing types including air bearing.

Tone arm types:
Uni-pivot Bearings, Gimbal Bearings, Linear Tracking Bearings, Double-blade Bearings, Precision Ball bearings, Four-point Needle Bearings, etc.

Not to.mention cartridges.

To just slightly modify your sentence:
So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with vinyl that these approaches are attempting to solve...


Erm, hmm, what was your point again?

 

[Adcc]

It makes no scientific sense. And I am nothing if not a diehard scientist with a PhD in computer science to boot, having spent a large part of my career teaching in one of the world’s greatest PhD programs in CS, and now working at one of the world”s leading software firms in the Bay Area. I’m no technological Luddite. I’ve invested heavily in digital with top solid state and tube DACs.

But each time I play my vinyl on one of my turntables, man oh man, why do I always feel that digital sucks? I’m listening to a garden variety pop album — Fleetwood Mac — on an SME 20/12 table with the V12 arm with a Koetsu Onyx Platinum feeding the ARC Ref 3SE phono stage. The sound is organic, so compelling to listen to that my left brain analytical mind that whispers this is all distortion sounding pleasant is quashed by my right brain saying who cares when it sounds so good?

Am I delusional?

Nope. For me it’s digital waves vs analogue waves. We hear analogue and I personally feel those waves and listen to digital. Not a scientist.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

You certain? Take a listen to Rob Watts talk about all the problems with digital reconstruction filters (various YouTube talks) and how he’s trying to solve them with his products and you cannot help but think, “ah, this is why vinyl sounds so good - it already has *all* the critical information that he, and others in their own way, are trying to reconstruct”. I realise this is an appeal to (Rob’s) authority, but he has some interesting insights and his gear is very well regarded, so perhaps he’s on to something? I personally think so, but could be wrong, of course. Anecdotally, the digital chain also seems extremely susceptible to electrical noise that degrades the output. As you attend to these issues digital does seem to get better and better, but you ultimately still run into the reconstruction issue… and that’s the fatal blow, IMO.

Rob Watts gives a very good explanation of how the human brain hears music at the Munich High End Show last week with this years release of the new Chord Quartet M Scaler for the Chord DAVE DAC;

 

[bonzo75]

Erm, hmm, what was your point again?

Erm, hmm, the recordings

 

[tima]

3) In a subjective hobby I strongly disagree with mistaking one's personal preference for any kind of objective fact. I hope you are not back to your view that if somebody does not like the type of sound you like, than they don't know what "natural sound" is.

In other words the fact that I may agree with your personal preference in sound does not make either of us "correct" in any objective sense.

Sophistry.

 

[wil]

So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...

This comment makes no sense to me at all….

Every tool used in audio reproduction, from turntables to dacs to speakers has many approaches and applications to solving “the problem.”

 

[Imperial]

Sophistry.

So there was april 15’th 1981.
The day that Herbert Von Karajan sat beside Akio Morita (boss of Sony)!at the release of the cd medium



And he said:
‘We are grateful that it has happened"..

Perfect sound forever…

So Herbert Von Karajan was the actuall driving force that made Sony release the Digital era.
Or CD, to be more exact.
Timbre, Dynamics and harmonics…

but vinyl was not dead..,
There Are talks about 6bit DSD these days.
I Wonder , whom will champion that?

Was Karajan making a Sophism - or is Vinyl dead.

 

[Carlos269]

I never said anything about smoothness. Those are your words that you are trying to attribute to me. I did not hear smooth last night with the performance. I did not hear the thin tipped up bright sound that I hear from your videos. I understand that you like that and that is fine, but I don’t hear that live and I don’t want to hear it from my system. I want to have that same experience, the energy filling the room and the power of the sound the startling dynamics. The realistic timber so the instruments sound the way they do live. There was nothing thin or smooth or bright in the live music experience of that jazz performance.

The take away is that it is easy and straight forward to set up my systems to sound like you describe. If you read my posts they are full of explanations and reasoning. I know the elements at play in sound reproduction to achieve the sound that I target. When I read your posts they are almost whimsical about descriptions without any real comprehension of how what is being described has come about.

I have placed videos of your system side by side with some of my systems’ videos and if you prefer what you hear from your system video over what you hear from mine then great. To me, the sound of your system is not resolving and your videos also have an overwhelming room reverb on top of the muddy bass and curtailed treble. To each their own. I will keep the sound of my systems every day.

Listen I’m not the first one that has told you this about your system. Those comments came from individuals that have listen to your system in person and in the room with you, and not over videos. It gives you something to think about, when you see a trend.

 

[Carlos269]

So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...

Jussi Laako is an authority on digital audio processing. Jussi has taken what Rob Watt has done and implemented an option with many greater number of taps than what Chord offers for those that want to use those filters, but he cautions on the limitations of that approach. Check out HQPLAYER and Jussi Laako’s work at Signalyst. High rate DSD is the best playback according to Jussi and he provides the technical explanation for it.

This comment makes no sense to me at all….

I thought the same thing, the comments says nothing but insinuates a problem without providing any details or explanation. Whatever the problem is, he should search Roon Communities or AudiophileStyle as Jussi Laako has probably already discussed it and addressed it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

So there was april 15’th 1981.
The day that Herbert Von Karajan sat beside Akio Morita (boss of Sony)!at the release of the cd medium

View attachment 131342

And he said:
‘We are grateful that it has happened"..

Perfect sound forever…

So Herbert Von Karajan was the actuall driving force that made Sony release the Digital era.
Or CD, to be more exact.
Timbre, Dynamics and harmonics…

but vinyl was not dead..,
There Are talks about 6bit DSD these days.
I Wonder , whom will champion that?

Was Karajan making a Sophism - or is Vinyl dead.

It probably has more to do with money ... the digital age.

Karajan got probably a nice amount of $$ for promoting digital.
And Sony incrreased their margin as CD s are much cheaper to produce then vinyl