Warning FAKE NEUMANN CARTRIDGE ALERT!!!!

[ddk]

Due to mounting interest and rarity I see a number of fake ones simultaneously for sale around the net when maybe one would have shown up every few years. To create more confusion, avoid detection and liability a fake mono version started circulating in the past couple of years they call the DMT. AFAIK Neumann never made this model and there are a number of tell tale signs with these fake cartridges that the counterfeiter has missed. Here's one on ebay auctioned by the same unscrupulous character that passed other ones on different sites,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neumann-DMT-Pickups-tested-Phono-Cartridge-Checked-/352302680803

Another one that he pawned off a few months ago, there could be more.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/Neumann-DMT-097-Tonabnehmer-geprueft-Phono-Cartridge-checked-/352196612993

Step by step instructions for making fakes

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=27407.15

I actually had the one current one on ebay, no. 081 in my hands and physically compared it to the real one and it's close, very close; hard for the average person to distinguish if one is only looking at picts and isn't familiar with Neumanns.



david

 

[Steve williams]

David

thank you so much for bringing this information to the membership

I was simply stunned reading the step by step instructions how to make a fake

 

[ddk]

David

thank you so much for bringing this information to the membership

I was simply stunned reading the step by step instructions how to make a fake

Unfortunately with those instructions anyone with some metal smithing skill can make a copy now.
david

 

[rockitman]

Not an easy diy project..

 

[Folsom]

I like that you are warning people, but I certainly hope you are not putting down the dude who's making new copies and sharing the experience. IMO we should all aspire to be as badass as he is, so long he doesn't try to sell them as originals (and I don't think it is him doing it for obvious reasons), more power to him.

 

[ddk]

I like that you are warning people, but I certainly hope you are not putting down the dude who's making new copies and sharing the experience. IMO we should all aspire to be as badass as he is, so long he doesn't try to sell them as originals (and I don't think it is him doing it for obvious reasons), more power to him.

Theyre not copies Folsom they’re total fakes and have nothing in common with actual Neumann cartridges and whoever’s making these is doing so to rip people off. I don’t believe that was the intention of the person on Lenco Heaven.

david

 

[Folsom]

Theyre not copies Folsom they’re total fakes and have nothing in common with actual Neumann cartridges and whoever’s making these is doing so to rip people off. I don’t believe that was the intention of the person on Lenco Heaven.

david

Yes, I understand that about the eBay ones. Sad, really... You'd think people with skills to make copies of things might target larger groups, with more common products but... meh.

 

[ddk]

Yes, I understand that about the eBay ones. Sad, really... You'd think people with skills to make copies of things might target larger groups, with more common products but... meh.

Copy implies that there’s some commonality between the original and the knockoff it’s not the case here. At best these fakes make noise most won’t play and some won’t even fit in the tonearm. The LH guy cleverly cannibalized some broken cartridges and made something very interesting, not the case with eBay fakes. It really doesn’t take much to make this crap anyone with basic silversmithing/goldsmithing skill can make them when they don’t have to perform.

david

 

[rockitman]

The fake is up to $1,360 now...lol
https://m.ebay.com/itm/Neumann-DMT-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

 

[Lagonda]

Due to mounting interest and rarity I see a number of fake ones simultaneously for sale around the net when maybe one would have shown up every few years. To create more confusion, avoid detection and liability a fake mono version started circulating in the past couple of years they call the DMT. AFAIK Neumann never made this model and there are a number of tell tale signs with these fake cartridges that the counterfeiter has missed. Here's one on ebay auctioned by the same unscrupulous character that passed other ones on different sites,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neumann-DMT-Pickups-tested-Phono-Cartridge-Checked-/352302680803

Another one that he pawned off a few months ago, there could be more.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/Neumann-DMT-097-Tonabnehmer-geprueft-Phono-Cartridge-checked-/352196612993

Step by step instructions for making fakes

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=27407.15

I actually had the one current one on ebay, no. 081 in my hands and physically compared it to the real one and it's close, very close; hard for the average person to distinguish if one is only looking at picts and isn't familiar with Neumanns.

View attachment 39220

david

You went to Germany and looked at this cartridge?

 

[ddk]

You went to Germany and looked at this cartridge?

I knew the DMT was a Unicorn and still couldn't resist and bought it off the guy, this is when PayPal is really needed.

david

 

[Lagonda]

Wow, I see you payd him 4000€, and the guy still has a perfect record with eBay, scary !

 

[ddk]

Wow, I see you payd him 4000€, and the guy still has a perfect record with eBay, scary !

They remove the negative feedback after settlement, basically the vendor is free to screw around until he gets caught again.

david

 

[Lagonda]

They remove the negative feedback after settlement, basically the vendor is free to screw around until he gets caught again.

david

You are right, just checked the negative feedback I left a Japanese seller after he tried scamming me on a Primare 201 preamp.
The feedback disappeared after the transaction was canceled, he tried making me stop the refund process, claiming it would hasten the return of my money ! EBay is a scary place !

 

[bonzo75]

Wow eye opening. So no point looking at eBay feedback then.

 

[ddk]

You are right, just checked the negative feedback I left a Japanese seller after he tried scamming me on a Primare 201 preamp.
The feedback disappeared after the transaction was canceled, he tried making me stop the refund process, claiming it would hasten the return of my money ! EBay is a scary place !

Wow eye opening. So no point looking at eBay feedback then.

It's been getting specially bad in the last 2-3 years, I recently bought an item from a Japanese vendor (no not SME ) and he wasn't happy with the final price so he cancels the sale 10 days after I paid without my concession and I couldn't do anything about it.

david

 

[SimonDE]

Dear all,

I'm the seller of these cartridges and was not sure if it's worth to join the discussion. However, as it's not the truth, I decided to give a statement.

Let me tell you the history of the cartridges I sell. I had the opportunity to buy a convolute of cartridges from a retired German sound engineer. It was a convolute of Ortofon, EMT and Neumann (DMT, DST and DST62) cartridges. He worked his whole life at the Bavarian broadcast station and collected the discarded items. He had one of the most unique collection. All the cartridges are original, some defect and some working. I describe the items in the best possible way with high quality and detailed pictures. If you carefully look at the pictures, you'll see that the parts are original.

Just compare the rebuild DST with the original one as seen on the picture from Vintagepsych herehttp://i.imgur.com/4U8WewY.jpg.
The differences are obvious.

The DMT cartridges are very rare. You do not find a lot of information about them. However doing a little Google search you'll find this for example http://twogoodears.blogspot.ch/2014/03/neumann-dmt-mono-neumann-cartridge.html.
The construction of the DMT is very special and differ from the DST. One coil under the cantilever is the MC technology, the other fixed coil is for early mono records. Other visual difference is that the DMT do not have a type plate as the DST. The "plate" is a brown phenolic resin paper (Bakelite?). Also they do have the serial number on top of the head shell.

About my "perfect" EBay record. David, you gave me a negative feedback right away without contacting me first. After we cancelled the transaction you agreed to change it from negative to neutral. This was done by you and I appreciate it. Your feedback is still visible and it isn't disappeared.

I hope my statement could clarify the topic.

I wish you all the best.
Simon

 

[ddk]

Simon,
You gave me the same song & dance back then with the same fake measurement, I had that cartridge in my hand I know a fake. The bayonet wasn't even the right thickness to fit in any tonearm and you can see still the file markings on it. I've been in jewelry business and manufacturing for nearly 40 years I can easily tell a fake and noe of what you say is true. There are a number of other things wrong with it which I prefer not to educate you in or whoever's making them and DMT is none of their archives, the one picture on twogoodears is also of a fake one. Show me the DMT in any Neumann archive, this was a professional company with very good records and catalogs everything including their earlier mono cartridges are archived. E-bay removes feedback after cancelled transactions wether I wanted to remove it or not. You shouldn't be here bullshitting people!

david

Edit- One other thing Simon, these DMTs are so super rare that you can't find them anywhere even in Neumann archives but you ended up with not one but two to dump on ebay? And lucky for you the engineer who sold them to you after a lifetime in the industry was too stupid to know what he had. Are you here because you want to screw a few more people with some of your so called DMTs?

I did contact you but you wouldn't refund the money until I posted that feedback and got PayPal involved. You might get away convincing someone who's never heard or seen a Neumann cartridge but I own several, easy to spot even better fakes than your DMT!

Dear all,

I'm the seller of these cartridges and was not sure if it's worth to join the discussion. However, as it's not the truth, I decided to give a statement.

Let me tell you the history of the cartridges I sell. I had the opportunity to buy a convolute of cartridges from a retired German sound engineer. It was a convolute of Ortofon, EMT and Neumann (DMT, DST and DST62) cartridges. He worked his whole life at the Bavarian broadcast station and collected the discarded items. He had one of the most unique collection. All the cartridges are original, some defect and some working. I describe the items in the best possible way with high quality and detailed pictures. If you carefully look at the pictures, you'll see that the parts are original.

Just compare the rebuild DST with the original one as seen on the picture from Vintagepsych herehttp://i.imgur.com/4U8WewY.jpg.
The differences are obvious.

The DMT cartridges are very rare. You do not find a lot of information about them. However doing a little Google search you'll find this for example http://twogoodears.blogspot.ch/2014/03/neumann-dmt-mono-neumann-cartridge.html.
The construction of the DMT is very special and differ from the DST. One coil under the cantilever is the MC technology, the other fixed coil is for early mono records. Other visual difference is that the DMT do not have a type plate as the DST. The "plate" is a brown phenolic resin paper (Bakelite?). Also they do have the serial number on top of the head shell.

About my "perfect" EBay record. David, you gave me a negative feedback right away without contacting me first. After we cancelled the transaction you agreed to change it from negative to neutral. This was done by you and I appreciate it. Your feedback is still visible and it isn't disappeared.

I hope my statement could clarify the topic.

I wish you all the best.
Simon

 

[SimonDE]

Dear all,

I did a lot of research and contacted some people. I´ve found a Neumann document mentioning the DMT system. The DMT was developed in 1957 and the predecessor of the DST.



David, you were right it´s not a Mono system and I was wrong. It´s a Stereo system but the DMT is genuine.

David wrote: “The bayonet wasn't even the right thickness to fit in any tonearm and you can see still the file markings on it.”
I´ve tested it with an EMT927 turntable an it´s a tight fit. As soon as I got it back I tested it again on an EMT 927 (tight fit) and Neumann Pa2 (easy fit).
The file markings are caused by me as the Silver plated contacts were heavy tarnished. I had to remove it to get a good electrical contact. My bad. After I got it back I´ve refurbished the system and done a new Silver plating. Again, sorry and it was my fault.

I will not give answers to other mentioned topics because it makes no sense any more. I´ve done my research and found a document mentioning the DMT.

I´ve also found a document mentioning three different DST types. With Saphire, Diamond and Diamond “Sonderklasse”. I also own a DST with the same design as the DMT, serial number on top housing, brown phenolic paper cover instead of type plate and a different construction as the DST described in the Neumann patent DE000001129718B from 1962. It must be an earlier build. If you´re interested I can provide more details.

Still looking for more information about the DMT/DST systems because it´s very fascinating.

Best regards
Simon

 

[bookshop]

Interesting conversation! I am a rare-books and '-papers'-seller in Berlin and just today i receievd a pile of documents incl. some patents, mainly around 1956-1962 (few earlier or later) concerning the Company's technical inventions and business around stereo-recording and -playing (the earlier and later ones on microphones, will be offered sperately); from the Neumann-estate (his house!), incl. a (Neumann's own!) PA 2 without pick-up-cartridge. Anyone interested? Details on Abebooks (where i am offering my books) ... Sebastian.
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