Retipping (stylus replacement) vs cantilever replacement

[PeterKB]

Hi,

I would like to understand the criteria based on which a retipper replaces the stylus only vs replacing the cantilever. The way I understand it (but I might be wrong) the most usual retipping method is cutting the cantilever and bonding a new cantilever in its place (together with a new stylus of course), as replacing just the stylus is difficult. What is the criteria for chosing to do so vs replacing just the stylus? I can understand specific cases (eg. Dynavector Karat with super short cantilever) but are there retippers that are able to replace just the stylus without touching the cantilever? I think this is crucial especially for historically important cartridges (eg. Miyabi), given that the cantilver is an inherent part of the original sound of the cartridge. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Solypsa]

@PeterKB I think you answered your own question

In certain cases a matching new cantilever + stylus assembly cannot be sourced and *if* the goal is to renew to original specs then a stylus-only replacement is called for.

As to the zenith accuracy of a retipper versus an oem manufacturer who knows...

 

[Serenade]

I asked a major cartridge manufacturer this question when he visited. His reply was that he could not guarantee a good sound with just a re-tip or cantilever change. He will only do rebuilds of the cart where the entire stylus, cantilever and coils are replaced as a whole. He sells his USD3,000 and above cartridges with a promise to rebuild any worn or damaged cartridge.

He explained that he buys in the cut diamonds to mount on his own cantilever and coils. The diamonds he says are not uniform (understandably due to the difficulty in cutting something so small and so hard). Then comes his problem to glue the bought non-uniform diamonds to his very small cantilever. It is done by hand under a microscope and he says he is not able to glue the diamond exactly at the same place each time. We are talking microns here.

The way out he explained is that he calibrates the coil positions the stylus position when doing the assembly. Not calibrate to the cantilever due to the problems mentioned above. This is the only way he can guarantee the sound to be good as new after the rebuild.

Back to the original question. Using his way of manufacturing, neither a retip or cantilever change will get you back the original sound without a rebuild.

I also asked a few third party re-builders and they told me that they do not do repairs. They will replace the entire motor assembly with their own and so the original sound will be forever lost.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Welcome to WBF, Peter!

 

[Bill Hart]

Part of it is skill, too. A true retip in the narrow sense is simply replacing the stylus, utilizing the factory cantilever and doing whatever other work is necessary to align, clean and restore full motor function. A pre-assembly cantilever/stylus that is mounted on the stub of the original cantilever may not replicate the original and the person doing the work may not be able to address other shortcomings that are the result of wear, abuse or age of the cartridge.
Part of this may depend on the value of the cartridge. I have done all different types, from the Franken-cartridge- a Denon 103, repotted, with a new cantilever and micro-ridge cartridge, in a wooden body, to having Koetsu rebuild, to having Peter L. put a fresh stylus in an Airtight Supreme and adjusting the cartridge back to original spec. I guess the question is value/expectation? There are certain retippers, worldwide, who are known for their work. Turn-around time may be a different matter. All worth exploring, depending on your needs.

 

[Gregadd]

I had a Benz Glider" retipped." I always had the sneaky suspicion that they simply shipped me a new cartridge. It just looked so much better than the one that I sent them. It makes sense, since retipping would be labor intensive.
Just my conspiracy theory.

 

[Ed.P]

I had the Ortofon “special repair service” for my SPU 90th where they supposedly keep the body and replace the rest:

Cartridge repair process

2.1. Upon receipt we open the defective cartridge, detach the motor unit from the body, scrap off all glue etc.
2.2. A new motor will be installed. A new diamond and cantilever will be mounted. Repaired cartridge is in fact a new product with a new motor.
2.3. Finally the cartridge will be cleaned and tested.
2.4. The test results will be provided along the repaired cartridge.

Repair SPU 90th Anniversary

Special repair service for the Ortofon SPU A90

www.ortofon.com

But when it came back the stenciled gold “Golden Horns of Gallehus” on the body were perfect and I highly doubt they went through the trouble of removing the old stenciling and re-doing it. The serial number was the same but also suspect it’s just a new cartridge entirely.

 

[PeterKB]

Thanks for all your thoughts. My understanding (but I stand to be corrected) is that replacing just the stylus is difficult as @Serenade mentioned. In that case replacing the whole cantilever with another cantilever (that already has a stylus on it) is easier + allows the retipper to charge more. I personally do not think this is better. Not all cantilever are the same, not even if they are made from the same material, changing the cantilever modifies the sound signature of the cartridge. For a cartridge that hasn't been sitting for long, reality is that only its stylus needs to be replaced (+ maybe restoring compliance which is not super complicated): this ensures that the character of the cartridge does not change and this is crucial (in my view) for vintage cartridges, yet most retips come with a new cantilever...

 

[Solypsa]

Not sure if I would say restoring compliance is not complicated. True an MC cartridge is comprised of a small number of parts, but it is the synergy of parts and labor / ability to fine tune the result. This imho is why @Seranade referred to looking at the cantilever + stylus AND the damper + suspension wire AND generator windings as a total system to be dialed in together.

*if* you have a special cart it is worth finding someone who can see the whole picture maybe on a retip is needed maybe more can't say until work is underway...

 

[mtemur]

Manufacturing a cartridge doesn’t cost much even for the high priced ones. That’s why some cartridge makers choose to replace it with a new one instead of disassembling and reassembling it with new stylus and cantilever. This whole situation tells us even the retip price is too high for a cartridge that some companies simply giving you a new one.

 

[Shuggie]

Manufacturing a cartridge doesn’t cost much even for the high priced ones. That’s why some cartridge makers choose to replace it with a new one instead of disassembling and reassembling it with new stylus and cantilever. This whole situation tells us even the retip price is too high for a cartridge that some companies simply giving you a new one.

Maybe not much cost in terms of materials, but most certainly in terms of time. Expensive human expertise and time.

 

[mtemur]

Maybe not much cost in terms of materials, but most certainly in terms of time. Expensive human expertise and time.

Not really. If it would have been hard and expensive they wouldn’t give you a new cartridge for the cost of a retip.

The expertise and time for building a 500$ cartridge is not much different than a 15000$ one. Advertisement and fancy words say otherwise but that’s the reality cause they can not simply say we rip you off.

IMHO biggest rip off is cables in this hobby and cartridge is the close second.

 

[Solypsa]

The expertise and time for building a 500$ cartridge is not much different than a 15000$ one. Advertisement and fancy words say otherwise but that’s the reality cause they can not simply say we rip you off.

Mtemur - based on your posts I see that you have a very deep level of analog experience so I respect your post based on this. I also agree that the mechanical composition of a cartridge is easy to grasp, and not particularly complex.

Imho however you have not given credit to the 'art and artisan' required to make a top level cart rise above the average. This falls almost entirely to a high level of skill, and sensitivity to small design and implementation changes, ( and not secret or fancy materials per se ) learned over time. In truth there are not so many people that are the hands behind all of these super cartridges.

I am not protecting luxury audio price excesses which do exist of course.

As an example there is a huge spread in the price to acquire a kitchen knife. From a few $€ to tens of thousands. At the bottom is of course stamped garbage and at the top we see 'brand , fashion and marketing' applied. If you have ever visited a multi-decade experienced blacksmith who is at the top of their game, and watched this artisan make a blade you can respect that they want to be paid for their life dedication. So balance is needed to find value.

Put another way when you are ready to produce and support a reliable cartridge that truly competes at the10k level and sell for $500 then your order book will be full for many, many years. Yet after how many weeks ( years ) of building this will you resent the financial compensation?

I wish to restate that I am just expressing a personal opinion and in no way wish to disrespect your level of experience and dedication to vinyl replay technology.

 

[mtemur]

Thank you for a quite good explanation @Solypsa. IMHO you are right about requirement of high skill and sensitivity to build a delicate but high performance cartridge. I respect all the things you said but;

Put another way when you are ready to produce and support a reliable cartridge that truly competes at the10k level and sell for $500 then your order book will be full for many, many years.

When they manage to build a 500USD cartridge at 10K level they simply put 10K price tag on it. Or let me put it this way: when they priced a cartridge to sell for 10K they are convinced that it can sell for 10K which is actually a 500USD cartridge. They set the price of a cartridge according to it's sound not the manufacturing cost or difficulty.

Some manufacturers only change the body and/or cantilever but the price gets double or triple. They tell fascinating stories about how hard to machine that body and how many obstacles they have to overcome to build it if you are ready to believe. A cartridge body measures in centimeters does not cost that much.

A high priced cartridge's 1 ohm coil is not harder to wind than a 30 ohm coil but price difference is astronomical. Yes, some 1 ohm coils have finer wire but that can not be advocated for the price jump from 500 to 10K. A cartridge maker does not spend 20X more time to wind a 1 ohm coil compared to 30 ohm coil. Actually 30 ohm coil can take more time and more skill cause it requires more turns. Additionally not all 10K cartridges have 1 ohm coil, there are many with 6, 8 or 24 ohm coils.

Another example is huge price jump from copper coils to silver coils. It is the same 4 ohm coil, it requires same skill and work, the only difference is wire, from copper to silver that weighs milligrams. I don't think silver is that expensive.

 

[bonzo75]

Not really. If it would have been hard and expensive they wouldn’t give you a new cartridge for the cost of a retip.

The expertise and time for building a 500$ cartridge is not much different than a 15000$ one. Advertisement and fancy words say otherwise but that’s the reality cause they can not simply say we rip you off.

IMHO biggest rip off is cables in this hobby and cartridge is the close second.

Completely agree. One of the carts retailing at 18k euro, is being sold to the distributors at less than 3500 (I have seen the invoice). In sound it is mediocre.

This is also why on the other thread I said it was silly of Koetsu, Lyra, and Zyx, irrespective of sound, charge what they do for retip/rebuild, no matter how they or those who have drunk their kool aid choose to justify it.

Carts are one thing difficult to audition. Therefore many are bought without listening at high expense, by listening to the dealer talk about the mystique of the cart, and then once bought it loses a lot of value to resale.

 

[Solypsa]

Completely agree. One of the carts retailing at 18k euro, is being sold to the distributors at less than 3500 (I have seen the invoice). In sound it is mediocre.

Regardless of performance, I agree that falls into luxury pricing as I mentioned in my prior post.

This is also why on the other thread I said it was silly of Koetsu, Lyra, and Zyx, irrespective of sound, charge what they do for retip/rebuild, no matter how they or those who have drunk their kool aid choose to justify it.

Agreed wholeheartedly. This is why I only choose to work with cart manufacturers that offer full service ' repair to rebuild ' at reasonable costs.

Carts are one thing difficult to audition. Therefore many are bought without listening at high expense, by listening to the dealer talk about the mystique of the cart, and then once bought it loses a lot of value to resale.

In some ways this is a tangent. Said dealer should (1) know what they say, and say something valuable [ not to be discounted ] and (2) know their client as well as possible to guide them correctly. @bonzo75 you make many well qualified suggestions to people you have not met. A dealer should be able to do same ( even if some do not ).

Personal services in general are waning in skill imho, how many excellent waiters are there left in the hospitality industry for example
[ and if you think that task is easy...well walk a mile in their shoes ]

I still feel that the skill set to take a transducer to this level should be rewarded. How complex is a wideband driver in its basic form, yet how costly is a top AER or Voxativ?

 

[bonzo75]

I still feel that the skill set to take a transducer to this level should be rewarded. How complex is a wideband driver in its basic form, yet how costly is a top AER or Voxativ?

Not an appropriate analogy. People have been trying for years to make a good single driver. A one-off yamamura aside, only AER has succeeded, and maybe Feastrex I haven't heard it. So people who share that opinion, will pay for the sonics, and AER can be auditioned before quite easily. Voxativ is nowhere in that league. And the quantity of the higher end AER models sold will be very, very low, as compared to a cart. That's the nature of the beast.

With carts, the luxury market is not the same. One, people do not audition carts as easily as they can speakers. Two, there is rebuild cost involved only for carts among all gear which are very high. If someone thinks after auditioning a cart is indeed way superior to the others, and has the budget, they should buy it, irrespective of price and rebuild costs. But with carts it is very difficult for people to get a sense of the options before buying, they buy something that is not necessarily the best and has high retip costs. It is very possible to buy excellent or even the best carts with low retip costs, though best can be subjective.

 

[Solypsa]

@bonzo75 I disagree. A cone based driver ( transducer ) is a simple device, cone VC, surround + spider and magnet. Also a MC cart ( transducer ) is simple, stylus + cantilever, magnet, damper + suspension and generator coil. The fact that AER pushed the art and hence deserves the price only validates the idea that a cart builder can do same, not denies it, and not with a linear cost to sale metric.

Rebuild costs, true, are a rub and one that I share with you, but it is a secondary topic.

 

[bonzo75]

@bonzo75 I disagree. A cone based driver ( transducer ) is a simple device, cone VC, surround + spider and magnet. Also a MC cart ( transducer ) is simple, stylus + cantilever, magnet, damper + suspension and generator coil. The fact that AER pushed the art and hence deserves the price only validates the idea that a cart builder can do same, not denies it, and not with a linear cost to sale metric.

I have never said one cannot charge something if there is something that was considered the best. That was not the point. In the specific case you quoted, I have not heard any good single driver (and I have not heard Feastrex) apart from AER, so that is the only choice for a single driver approach. You have an explanation of how cone based drivers are simple, but no one else made a good single driver type speaker apart from Yamamura and Pnoe AER afaik, so if I had the money, I would pay for AER BD5 in Pnoe. It is the only choice.

There is nothing the high rebuild/price carts are doing that requires that non-linearity. If they do, they are justified to charge high in a non-linear fashion. And even then, they are justifying rebuild price for the material/efforts/skill involved, not for the sonic superiority that will deserve non-linearity.

 

[PeterKB]

I have never said one cannot charge something if there is something that was considered the best. That was not the point. In the specific case you quoted, I have not heard any good single driver (and I have not heard Feastrex) apart from AER, so that is the only choice for a single driver approach. You have an explanation of how cone based drivers are simple, but no one else made a good single driver type speaker apart from Yamamura and Pnoe AER afaik, so if I had the money, I would pay for AER BD5 in Pnoe. It is the only choice.

There is nothing the high rebuild/price carts are doing that requires that non-linearity. If they do, they are justified to charge high in a non-linear fashion. And even then, they are justifying rebuild price for the material/efforts/skill involved, not for the sonic superiority that will deserve non-linearity.

Potentially the WE/Altec 755a also, but I get your point. This is actually a very good example: interestingly enough there were attempts to copy them (Line Magnetic) but despite being literary ancient technology the combination of materials & process cannot be replicated and they don’t sound nothing like the original, so yes it is easy to build a single driver speaker however to achieve that level of performance (I’m not talking frequency response) is actually quite hard.

Similarly in a cartridge the process to make it might be standard (I agree with that) and the material might not cost a fortune, but the process of “voicing” it (ie the designers time to prototype and use different combinations of cantilever-stylus-coils etc to achieve a certain sonic profile) is what is in the price of a high-end cartridge. Let’s also remember than any economies of scale are also difficult as (a) there is a lot of manual labor involved and (b) production numbers for cartridges are still quite low (especially compared to what they were when vinyl was the only medium), that explains why they have become a premium niche.