Repeated plays in succession...how harmful is it?

[Johnny Vinyl]

The interaction between stylus and vinyl creates an enormous amount of friction and heat, so I've always tried to refrain from playing my LP's twice in a row. Not always easy when you're in the mood to listen to a particular album side a few times, but it's better than the potential damage it could inflict. So far I've not heard any damaging artifacts from a vinyl record that has been played in that manner. I also wouldn't know what to listen for, although I suppose that would be self-evident when hearing it.

Do any of you have any experience with this? And what is your considered opinion about the potential for damage? Also, what is your strategy? How long do you wait before giving your vinyl another spin?

As usual....thanks in advance for your input!

 

[rockitman]

The interaction between stylus and vinyl creates an enormous amount of friction and heat, so I've always tried to refrain from playing my LP's twice in a row. Not always easy when you're in the mood to listen to a particular album side a few times, but it's better than the potential damage it could inflict. So far I've not heard any damaging artifacts from a vinyl record that has been played in that manner. I also wouldn't know what to listen for, although I suppose that would be self-evident when hearing it.

Do any of you have any experience with this? And what is your considered opinion about the potential for damage? Also, what is your strategy? How long do you wait before giving your vinyl another spin?

As usual....thanks in advance for your input!

The heat dissipates fast.... by the time the needle hits the same groove for the second time there will be no heat left. I wouldn't worry about it. Play away.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

The heat dissipates fast.... by the time the needle hits the same groove for the second time there will be no heat left. I wouldn't worry about it. Play away.

I always thought that too, but many seem to feel it's not a good practice. I'm not overly concerned, but I thought it was an interesting enough scenario to get opinion on. Glad to hear that you feel it isn't an issue! Thanks!

 

[rockitman]

I always thought that too, but many seem to feel it's not a good practice. I'm not overly concerned, but I thought it was an interesting enough scenario to get opinion on. Glad to hear that you feel it isn't an issue! Thanks!

You could always get a thermal heat reader. I would bet a lot that the vinyl is room temp long before the second play.

 

[microstrip]

I have read long ago an article in TAS where it was stated that if you play an LP track twice it will not sound exactly the same - the vinyl LP is a plastic fluid and it will take sometime to recover the original shape after being played. But as far as I remember it did not refer to damaging the LP.

 

[garylkoh]

I read that article too, but I once did an experiment recording the same track twice in quick succession and doing a dbt, I couldn't hear a difference.

 

[sombunya]

I have read long ago an article in TAS where it was stated that if you play an LP track twice it will not sound exactly the same - the vinyl LP is a plastic fluid and it will take sometime to recover the original shape after being played. But as far as I remember it did not refer to damaging the LP.

The music I listen to, I could never tell if a change occurred from one play to the next.

However, record it using a program like AUDACITY and check the waveform. No listening involved. If there were any changes I think it would be easy to see them.

 

[KlausR.]

Vinyl has a much lower thermal conductivity than diamond (0.15 as compared to 2000), which means that the diamond conducts heat away from the record. The factor which appears to be important is physical deformation of the vinyl material in the (hopefully) elastic range, due to stylus pressure, from which the material needs to recover.


Max (RCA Victor Division), "Record Stylus Pressure", JAES 1955, p.66

SOME EXPERIMENTAL FINDINGS ON RELATIVE WEAR
There are a few experimental facts which can be explained play qualitatively on the basis of these viscoelastic properties. If we repeatedly play a small portion of a polystyrene record at short intervals, of about 5 to 10 seconds, we find rapid record wear. A similar effect can sometimes be found on vinyl records but to a lesser degree. In 10 to 20 plays, the grooves become noisy as a result of breakdown. If the intervals between successive playings are made 20 minutes long, these same records will show no particular damage from wear after more than 100 plays. Apparently, the repeated playing at short intervals does not give the plastic a chance to recover. As a result, the stress builds higher with each additional playing. This phenomenon conforms to the concept of the delayed elastic effect.

Klaus

 

[MylesBAstor]

Vinyl has a much lower thermal conductivity than diamond (0.15 as compared to 2000), which means that the diamond conducts heat away from the record. The factor which appears to be important is physical deformation of the vinyl material in the (hopefully) elastic range, due to stylus pressure, from which the material needs to recover.


Max (RCA Victor Division), "Record Stylus Pressure", JAES 1955, p.66

SOME EXPERIMENTAL FINDINGS ON RELATIVE WEAR
There are a few experimental facts which can be explained play qualitatively on the basis of these viscoelastic properties. If we repeatedly play a small portion of a polystyrene record at short intervals, of about 5 to 10 seconds, we find rapid record wear. A similar effect can sometimes be found on vinyl records but to a lesser degree. In 10 to 20 plays, the grooves become noisy as a result of breakdown. If the intervals between successive playings are made 20 minutes long, these same records will show no particular damage from wear after more than 100 plays. Apparently, the repeated playing at short intervals does not give the plastic a chance to recover. As a result, the stress builds higher with each additional playing. This phenomenon conforms to the concept of the delayed elastic effect.

Klaus

I've seen that and while it's interesting, do you really think that the results apply to current vinyl formulations? Think the vinyl Chad, RTI, Pallas, MOFI use nowadays is very different and assumedly better. That's the problem with the AES offprints. Some are relevant and some are just out of date.

 

[KlausR.]

I've seen that and while it's interesting, do you really think that the results apply to current vinyl formulations? Think the vinyl Chad, RTI, Pallas, MOFI use nowadays is very different and assumedly better. That's the problem with the AES offprints. Some are relevant and some are just out of date.

Since I for one don't have any details about the exact vinyl formulations and their respective mechanical properties, I only can say: I don't know. Maybe Max's results do apply, maybe they don't. Many of us have vinyl from when they were young, so maybe the formulation used then wasn't that much different from what was used when Max wrote his paper. Since we don't know for sure it's maybe advisable to play safe and avoid repeated playings without giving the vinyl some rest time.

Klaus

 

[rbbert]

20 minutes suggests that you can (in most cases) repeatedly play the same side of an LP, just maybe not the same track.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

20 minutes suggests that you can (in most cases) repeatedly play the same side of an LP, just maybe not the same track.

Since I play whole album sides almost exclusively, this suggests then that an album side can be played again without "rest".